Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

My local winemaking store/winery insists that I should use Kwik Clear
(Kieselsol / Gelatin) finings on practically every wine I make as soon
as it has completed fermentation. They say it has negligable effect
on flavour and colour and allows the wine to get on with the
maturation process with much less risk of accumulating off-flavours.

As far as I have been able to gather over the years, the majority who
contribute here seem to argue that gravity alone should be used unless
there are special circumstances or the wine fails to clear by itself.

Is the difference in flavour/colour so negligible that he has a good
point? Or would you argue that fining rather than waiting and
racking repeatedly results in a far superior product?

I know this topic has kind of been done before, but I hope that since
the question is specific to the finings above (and the group is so
quiet) that some of you might care to take the question on.

Thanks and happy days to you,

Jim
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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

jim c wrote:

> My local winemaking store/winery insists that I should use Kwik Clear
> (Kieselsol / Gelatin) finings on practically every wine I make as soon
> as it has completed fermentation.


It is a very good fining agent AND it is probably one of the most expensive
he has in his store. Time and patience are less expensive. Fining is done
for more reasons than just rapid clearing. First determine your needs -
other than quick clarity.
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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

On Feb 9, 9:35*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> jim c wrote:
> > My local winemaking store/winery insists that I should use Kwik Clear
> > (Kieselsol / Gelatin) finings on practically every wine I make as soon
> > as it has completed fermentation. *

>
> It is a very good fining agent AND it is probably one of the most expensive
> he has in his store. *Time and patience are less expensive. *Fining is done
> for more reasons than just rapid clearing. *First determine your needs -
> other than quick clarity.


That's what I said to him and he said "Once fermentation is over, all
that is left is maturing and that is better done after fining to avoid
any off flavours." His opinion was that after fermentation, the
floating particles add nothing beneficial to the wine and therefore
should be removed. He also said he didn't believe that the
combination removed any flavour or colour of the fruit.

I know he has a strong conviction about this, rather than trying to
sell me any (I have some anyway). (Actually it was I meeting him
about web services I had to offer him ) But as the owner of a
winery, I do find his approach very different to many...
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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

Jim:

I'm a kit kind of guy, and I tend to use the additives included in the
kits, and that includes clearing agents. The popular one in Canada is
Kieselsol-Chitosan. Good grades of gelatin were apparently difficult
to source during the Mad Cow thing. Don't know about now. Don't know
if K-C or K-G is better or if it depends on the circumstances.

I tend to use a combination of gravity and clearing agents. I bottled
a kit today, so have the data in front of me.

Nov 5 - started - sg 1.084
Nov 16 - to carboy - sg .990 (ferment complete)
Dec 13 - stabilizers and clearing (isinglass) added - .988
Jan 24 - racked off sediment
Feb 9 - filtered and bottled

That was a six week kit, and it took me three months (13 weeks or
so). That was actually quick for me, because we're low on wine.

As you can see, I did not add the clearing agent as soon as the
ferment was finished.

Steve
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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

On Feb 10, 4:11*am, Steve > wrote:
> Jim:
>
> I'm a kit kind of guy, and I tend to use the additives included in the
> kits, and that includes clearing agents. *The popular one in Canada is
> Kieselsol-Chitosan. *Good grades of gelatin were apparently difficult
> to source during the Mad Cow thing. *Don't know about now. *Don't know
> if K-C or K-G is better or if it depends on the circumstances.
>
> I tend to use a combination of gravity and clearing agents. *I bottled
> a kit today, so have the data in front of me.
>
> Nov 5 - started - sg 1.084
> Nov 16 - to carboy - sg .990 (ferment complete)
> Dec 13 - stabilizers and clearing (isinglass) added - .988
> Jan 24 - racked off sediment
> Feb 9 - filtered and bottled
>
> That was a six week kit, and it took me three months (13 *weeks or
> so). *That was actually quick for me, because we're low on wine.
>
> As you can see, I did not add the clearing agent as soon as the
> ferment was finished.
>
> Steve


Sure, thanks for that Steve. I see that you didn't use the finings
immediately, but it is basically within the timeline my wineshop guy
suggests.

To be honest, I ask because most of the 'white' country wines that I
have made so far have had a homemade wine taste to them. I.E. a
slight off taste compared to what I would like. I work on a 2 month
repeated racking schedule on average and then roughly a year in bulk
before bottling now. I have been wondering if I would have had a
better tasting wine if I had used finings once fermentation was over
and then aged in bulk...

For red wines I haven't made a bad one yet, for which I am very glad
as I am basically a red wine drinker.

I am glad to hear these examples, it's all very interesting. Many
thanks!


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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

jim c wrote:

> On Feb 10, 4:11Â*am, Steve > wrote:
>> Jim:
>>
>> I'm a kit kind of guy, and I tend to use the additives included in the
>> kits, and that includes clearing agents. Â*The popular one in Canada is
>> Kieselsol-Chitosan. Â*Good grades of gelatin were apparently difficult
>> to source during the Mad Cow thing. Â*Don't know about now. Â*Don't know
>> if K-C or K-G is better or if it depends on the circumstances.
>>
>> I tend to use a combination of gravity and clearing agents. Â*I bottled
>> a kit today, so have the data in front of me.
>>
>> Nov 5 - started - sg 1.084
>> Nov 16 - to carboy - sg .990 (ferment complete)
>> Dec 13 - stabilizers and clearing (isinglass) added - .988
>> Jan 24 - racked off sediment
>> Feb 9 - filtered and bottled
>>
>> That was a six week kit, and it took me three months (13 Â*weeks or
>> so). Â*That was actually quick for me, because we're low on wine.
>>
>> As you can see, I did not add the clearing agent as soon as the
>> ferment was finished.
>>
>> Steve

>
> I work on a 2 month
> repeated racking schedule on average and then roughly a year in bulk
> before bottling now.


IMHO, a 2 month repeated racking schedule is overkill in the extreme.


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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

On Feb 10, 12:05*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> jim c wrote:
> > On Feb 10, 4:11*am, Steve > wrote:
> >> Jim:

>
> >> I'm a kit kind of guy, and I tend to use the additives included in the
> >> kits, and that includes clearing agents. *The popular one in Canada is
> >> Kieselsol-Chitosan. *Good grades of gelatin were apparently difficult
> >> to source during the Mad Cow thing. *Don't know about now. *Don't know
> >> if K-C or K-G is better or if it depends on the circumstances.

>
> >> I tend to use a combination of gravity and clearing agents. *I bottled
> >> a kit today, so have the data in front of me.

>
> >> Nov 5 - started - sg 1.084
> >> Nov 16 - to carboy - sg .990 (ferment complete)
> >> Dec 13 - stabilizers and clearing (isinglass) added - .988
> >> Jan 24 - racked off sediment
> >> Feb 9 - filtered and bottled

>
> >> That was a six week kit, and it took me three months (13 *weeks or
> >> so). *That was actually quick for me, because we're low on wine.

>
> >> As you can see, I did not add the clearing agent as soon as the
> >> ferment was finished.

>
> >> Steve

>
> > I work on a 2 month
> > repeated racking schedule on average and then roughly a year in bulk
> > before bottling now. *

>
> IMHO, a 2 month repeated racking schedule is overkill in the extreme.


That's interesting, thanks for raising the point. I meant that I rack
after two months when they have finished fermenting and after two more
they have dropped a reasonable amount of sediment so I rack again.
Usually there has been no need to further rack until the point where I
consider the wine to be ready to bulk age.

Do you think I should use a longer period before first (secondary to
secondary container) rack and then before second rack or did you think
I meant I racked every two months before bottling? Sorry for the
confusion!
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Default Kwik Clear (Kieselsol / Gelatin) V.S. Gravity

jim c wrote:


> Do you think I should use a longer period before first (secondary to
> secondary container) rack and then before second rack or did you think
> I meant I racked every two months before bottling? Sorry for the
> confusion!


I thought you were talking about racking every two months.

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