michael wrote:

> On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Jul 3, 2:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Michael,
>>
>> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
>> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru.
>> >> > I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against
>> >> > that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit
>> >> > get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique
>> >> > you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring
>> >> > there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not
>> >> > recommended.
>>
>> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>>
>> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
>> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
>> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>>
>> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
>> >> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
>> >> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>>
>> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
>> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
>> >> fruit. Â*It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
>> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>>
>> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
>> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
>> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>>
>> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. Â*If one has shoots from
>> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if
>> >> they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>>
>> >> Paul
>>
>> > Michael wrote:
>>
>> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
>> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>>
>> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
>> > ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones.
>> > As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
>> > there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
>> > on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha Â*it is.
>>
>> I am confused. Â*You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side
>> shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?
>>
>> I am always willing to learn. Â*Do you have a literature cites so support
>> your views?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines
>> >> >> are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated
>> >> >> them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of
>> >> >> June the vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above
>> >> >> this wire and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I
>> >> >> find it necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines
>> >> >> reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on
>> >> >> to the wire with a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical
>> >> >> shoot.However,I find it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm
>> >> >> wire tightly enough to prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested
>> >> >> plastic covered thin wire for ties,but I feel that they will be
>> >> >> even more difficult to remove in the Autumn.Could someone advise of
>> >> >> a more secure way? Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> grape bunches to aid ripening.
> Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> Michael

I think your are doing things right.

doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals.
In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates
that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which will
never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. I
was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.

What are your growing?
I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
vines.

Paul