My wife has been experimenting with various types of grains lately to make
different sorts of bread. I wondered what would happen if she used some of
my wine yeast in a batch. Google had lots of hits about using bread yeast to
make wine (generally not recommended) but nothing going the other way.

Has anyone ever tried using a wine or mead yeast to make bread? I'm sure it
would work to some degree but wondered how strains bred for wine would
perform in a batch of dough. Any experiences or references would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Paul

On 8/7/2008 10:36 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
> My wife has been experimenting with various types of grains lately to make
> different sorts of bread. I wondered what would happen if she used some of
> my wine yeast in a batch. Google had lots of hits about using bread yeast to
> make wine (generally not recommended) but nothing going the other way.
>
> Has anyone ever tried using a wine or mead yeast to make bread? I'm sure it
> would work to some degree but wondered how strains bred for wine would
> perform in a batch of dough. Any experiences or references would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul


Paul,

The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
Bread yeast creates glutens, generates a lot of CO2, and has a high
temperature range, amongst other qualities. Wine/beer yeast has similar
but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
make a good bread yeast.


Cheers,
Ken

On Aug 7, 10:06*pm, mail box > wrote:
> On 8/7/2008 10:36 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
>
> > My wife has been experimenting with various types of grains lately to make
> > different sorts of bread. I wondered what would happen if she used some of
> > my wine yeast in a batch. Google had lots of hits about using bread yeast to
> > make wine (generally not recommended) but nothing going the other way.
>
> > Has anyone ever tried using a wine or mead yeast to make bread? I'm sure it
> > would work to some degree but wondered how strains bred for wine would
> > perform in a batch of dough. Any experiences or references would be
> > appreciated.
>
> > Thanks,
>
I've used champagne yeast for bread with good results. I've also made
a starter with champagne yeast and let it "sour". Best sourdough bread
I ever had. Tried other wine yeasts besides champagne yeast with not
as good results. Try Prisse de Mousse. Make a starter let sit 24 hours
then add more flour and bake.

Bob

> > Paul
>
> Paul,
>
> The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. *Without
> cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
> discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
> Bread yeast creates glutens, generates a lot of CO2, and has a high
> temperature range, amongst other qualities. *Wine/beer yeast has similar
> but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
> make a good bread yeast.
>
> Cheers,
> Ken

In article >, mail box > wrote:

>The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>Bread yeast creates glutens,

No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.

>generates a lot of CO2,

Since CO2 and ethanol are the byproducts of *all* yeast metabolism, it's
difficult to see how the production of either one would depend on the strain
of yeast used.

>and has a high
>temperature range, amongst other qualities. Wine/beer yeast has similar
>but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
>make a good bread yeast.

Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic for bread
yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using wine yeast, but I
wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it normally would, due to the
lower temperature tolerance of wine yeasts. Why bother, anyway? Wine yeast is
*much* more expensive than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a better
job.

Doug Miller > wrote:

> Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic
> for bread yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using
> wine yeast, but I wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it
> normally would, due to the lower temperature tolerance of wine
> yeasts. Why bother, anyway? Wine yeast is *much* more expensive
> than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a better job.

All very true. BUT it's not a bad idea to use the lees from
the primary for bread yeast. Many a beer guy/gal says the
trub works great for them.

Dick

On Aug 8, 4:41*pm, (Dick Adams) wrote:
> Doug Miller > wrote:
> > Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic
> > for bread yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using
> > wine yeast, but I wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it
> > normally would, due to the lower temperature tolerance of wine
> > yeasts. *Why bother, anyway? *Wine yeast is *much* more expensive
> > than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a better job.
>
> All very true. *BUT it's not a bad idea to use the lees from
> the primary for bread yeast. *Many a beer guy/gal says the
> trub works great for them.
>
> Dick

That really sounds like a good idea next time i make a stout...

On 8/8/2008 1:28 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article >, mail box > wrote:
>
>> The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>> cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>> discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>> Bread yeast creates glutens,
>
> No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.

Meh, I'm no expert on bread making, having never done it and never
having researched it. I probably misrepresented the discussion on the
HBD. Since I can't be certain, I'll post their comments here in
abbreviated form and trying to maintain proper accreditation:

> From: David Scheidt
> Subject: baking yeast
>
>> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:30:17 -0800
>> From: "Matt Wallace"
>> Subject: behold the starch-busting power of...yeast?
>>
>> Hello HBDers,
>>
>> So I've recently baked my first few loaves of yeast bread (btw, I
>> highly suggest the no-knead bread recipe that was flying around the
>> internet a year or so ago- it's a beautiful thing).
>>
>> It is my understanding that the beauty of a nice crusty loaf is the
>> result of fermentation by saccharomyces cerevsiae...just like in beer.
>> But where's the sugar? One passage in a baking book I've read (The
>> King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion) says there's no need to add sugar
>> to your bread dough, because the yeast can break down enough starches
>> themselves to fuel a nice rise and develop flavor. To what extent
>> does this go on in beer fermentation? Do the yeast have their own
>> starch busting enzymes? Could a very generous pitch balance out a
>> high or low temperature mash?
>
> While the yeast used for baking bread and brewing beer are the same
> species, they're very different beasties. They're both bred specifically
> for their intended purpose, and do that very well. They do poorly at
> other things. There are a number of traits that baking yeasts have been
> bred for: activity, temperature insensitivity, tolerance to dehydration,
> and the ability to go after starches are the most interesting to the home
> baker.
>
> With a good modern yeast -- and any packaged yeast sold comerecially
> in the US is pretty good -- there's no need to have any sugar at all.
> They'll decompose the starch themselves.
>
> I'm a fan of instant dried yeasts, which are sold in the supermarket
> as bread machine or "Rapid-Rise" yeast. Yeast plant for yeast plant,
> they're no more active than any other yeast, but they're denser, so there
> are more of them per teaspoon. They're also somewhat more likely to
> be alive than active dry yeast, so by mass you get a bit more yeast.
> Control for that, and they're no more rapid than other yeast. They're
> big advantage for me, and the typical home baker, is their ease of use.
> There's no need to rehyrdrate them before use; mix them in the flour, and
> you're set. They've also got a long shelf life: two years in an unopened
> package at room temperature, much longer in a freezer. If you're at all
> serious about baking, buy it in bulk. I can get two pounds of IDY at
> Sam's for about $4. My grocery store wants $8 for a four ounce jar.
>
> As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
> year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
> suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
> for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
> mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
> making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.

On sourdough:

On 8/8/2008 9:11 AM, doublesb wrote:

> I've used champagne yeast for bread with good results. I've also made
> a starter with champagne yeast and let it "sour". Best sourdough bread
> I ever had. Tried other wine yeasts besides champagne yeast with not
> as good results. Try Prisse de Mousse. Make a starter let sit 24 hours
> then add more flour and bake.
>
> Bob

> From: "John Stewart"
[snipped]
> I subscribe to Cook's Illustrated, a truly amazingly good cooking
> magazine. No ads, just extremely well tested recipes and equipment
> reviews (they also have a TV show on PBS, America's Test Kitchen, also
> very good).
>
> Their latest (Jan/Feb 2008) issue includes "No Knead Bread Recipe
> 2.0". They took that New York Times no knead bread recipe, tested it
> with 5 inexperienced bakers, and then improved it based on the
> results.
>
> Two additional ingredients they added, to add depth and character to
> the bread, are a tablespoon of vinegar (to replicate a sourdough type
> flavor) and 3 ounces of mild lager (to add a complexity of flavor not
> delivered by the instant yeast).

In article >, mail box > wrote:
>On 8/8/2008 1:28 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article >, mail box
> > wrote:
>>
>>> The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>>> cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>>> discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>>> Bread yeast creates glutens,
>>
>> No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.
>
>Meh, I'm no expert on bread making, having never done it and never
>having researched it. I probably misrepresented the discussion on the
>HBD. Since I can't be certain, I'll post their comments here in
>abbreviated form and trying to maintain proper accreditation:
>
[snip]
> > As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
> > year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
> > suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
> > for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
> > mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
> > making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.

A far cry from claiming that the yeast creates the gluten.

Also incorrect (twice) in its claim that "any dough" will develop gluten "if
allowed to set for a long enough time". In fact, kneading is *necessary* to
create gluten by mechanically mixing the two proteins _in_wheat_ that create
it -- and no amount of kneading, hydration, time, or anything else will create
gluten in a dough made from flour that lacks significant amounts of those
proteins: rye flour, for example. (That's why you need to add wheat flour, or
at least wheat gluten, to your rye flour when making rye bread.)

On 8/9/2008 11:09 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> [snip]
>>> As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
>>> year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
>>> suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
>>> for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
>>> mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
>>> making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.
>
> A far cry from claiming that the yeast creates the gluten.

Cut me some slack, will ya? I already issued more than one mia culpa.



Cheers,
Ken

"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, mail box
> > wrote:
>
>>The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>>cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>>discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>>Bread yeast creates glutens,
>
> No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.
>
>>generates a lot of CO2,
>
> Since CO2 and ethanol are the byproducts of *all* yeast metabolism, it's
> difficult to see how the production of either one would depend on the
> strain
> of yeast used.
>
>>and has a high
>>temperature range, amongst other qualities. Wine/beer yeast has similar
>>but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
>>make a good bread yeast.
>
> Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic for
> bread
> yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using wine yeast, but I
> wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it normally would, due to the
> lower temperature tolerance of wine yeasts. Why bother, anyway? Wine yeast
> is
> *much* more expensive than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a
> better
> job.

We're just curious to see what would happen. I realize that yeast strains
have been developed over the years to do specific jobs, but sometimes things
have applications other than what they were designed for. E.G., I understand
that Rogaine was being developed as a treatment for high blood pressure when
they noticed that it encouraged hair growth.

Paul