Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

My wife has been experimenting with various types of grains lately to make
different sorts of bread. I wondered what would happen if she used some of
my wine yeast in a batch. Google had lots of hits about using bread yeast to
make wine (generally not recommended) but nothing going the other way.

Has anyone ever tried using a wine or mead yeast to make bread? I'm sure it
would work to some degree but wondered how strains bred for wine would
perform in a batch of dough. Any experiences or references would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Paul

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

On 8/7/2008 10:36 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
> My wife has been experimenting with various types of grains lately to make
> different sorts of bread. I wondered what would happen if she used some of
> my wine yeast in a batch. Google had lots of hits about using bread yeast to
> make wine (generally not recommended) but nothing going the other way.
>
> Has anyone ever tried using a wine or mead yeast to make bread? I'm sure it
> would work to some degree but wondered how strains bred for wine would
> perform in a batch of dough. Any experiences or references would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul


Paul,

The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
Bread yeast creates glutens, generates a lot of CO2, and has a high
temperature range, amongst other qualities. Wine/beer yeast has similar
but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
make a good bread yeast.


Cheers,
Ken

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

On Aug 7, 10:06*pm, mail box > wrote:
> On 8/7/2008 10:36 PM, Pavel314 wrote:
>
> > My wife has been experimenting with various types of grains lately to make
> > different sorts of bread. I wondered what would happen if she used some of
> > my wine yeast in a batch. Google had lots of hits about using bread yeast to
> > make wine (generally not recommended) but nothing going the other way.
>
> > Has anyone ever tried using a wine or mead yeast to make bread? I'm sure it
> > would work to some degree but wondered how strains bred for wine would
> > perform in a batch of dough. Any experiences or references would be
> > appreciated.
>
> > Thanks,
>
I've used champagne yeast for bread with good results. I've also made
a starter with champagne yeast and let it "sour". Best sourdough bread
I ever had. Tried other wine yeasts besides champagne yeast with not
as good results. Try Prisse de Mousse. Make a starter let sit 24 hours
then add more flour and bake.

Bob

> > Paul
>
> Paul,
>
> The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. *Without
> cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
> discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
> Bread yeast creates glutens, generates a lot of CO2, and has a high
> temperature range, amongst other qualities. *Wine/beer yeast has similar
> but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
> make a good bread yeast.
>
> Cheers,
> Ken

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

In article >, mail box > wrote:

>The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>Bread yeast creates glutens,

No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.

>generates a lot of CO2,

Since CO2 and ethanol are the byproducts of *all* yeast metabolism, it's
difficult to see how the production of either one would depend on the strain
of yeast used.

>and has a high
>temperature range, amongst other qualities. Wine/beer yeast has similar
>but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
>make a good bread yeast.

Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic for bread
yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using wine yeast, but I
wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it normally would, due to the
lower temperature tolerance of wine yeasts. Why bother, anyway? Wine yeast is
*much* more expensive than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a better
job.

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

Doug Miller > wrote:

> Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic
> for bread yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using
> wine yeast, but I wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it
> normally would, due to the lower temperature tolerance of wine
> yeasts. Why bother, anyway? Wine yeast is *much* more expensive
> than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a better job.

All very true. BUT it's not a bad idea to use the lees from
the primary for bread yeast. Many a beer guy/gal says the
trub works great for them.

Dick

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

On Aug 8, 4:41*pm, (Dick Adams) wrote:
> Doug Miller > wrote:
> > Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic
> > for bread yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using
> > wine yeast, but I wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it
> > normally would, due to the lower temperature tolerance of wine
> > yeasts. *Why bother, anyway? *Wine yeast is *much* more expensive
> > than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a better job.
>
> All very true. *BUT it's not a bad idea to use the lees from
> the primary for bread yeast. *Many a beer guy/gal says the
> trub works great for them.
>
> Dick

That really sounds like a good idea next time i make a stout...

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

On 8/8/2008 1:28 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article >, mail box > wrote:
>
>> The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>> cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>> discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>> Bread yeast creates glutens,
>
> No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.

Meh, I'm no expert on bread making, having never done it and never
having researched it. I probably misrepresented the discussion on the
HBD. Since I can't be certain, I'll post their comments here in
abbreviated form and trying to maintain proper accreditation:

> From: David Scheidt
> Subject: baking yeast
>
>> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:30:17 -0800
>> From: "Matt Wallace"
>> Subject: behold the starch-busting power of...yeast?
>>
>> Hello HBDers,
>>
>> So I've recently baked my first few loaves of yeast bread (btw, I
>> highly suggest the no-knead bread recipe that was flying around the
>> internet a year or so ago- it's a beautiful thing).
>>
>> It is my understanding that the beauty of a nice crusty loaf is the
>> result of fermentation by saccharomyces cerevsiae...just like in beer.
>> But where's the sugar? One passage in a baking book I've read (The
>> King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion) says there's no need to add sugar
>> to your bread dough, because the yeast can break down enough starches
>> themselves to fuel a nice rise and develop flavor. To what extent
>> does this go on in beer fermentation? Do the yeast have their own
>> starch busting enzymes? Could a very generous pitch balance out a
>> high or low temperature mash?
>
> While the yeast used for baking bread and brewing beer are the same
> species, they're very different beasties. They're both bred specifically
> for their intended purpose, and do that very well. They do poorly at
> other things. There are a number of traits that baking yeasts have been
> bred for: activity, temperature insensitivity, tolerance to dehydration,
> and the ability to go after starches are the most interesting to the home
> baker.
>
> With a good modern yeast -- and any packaged yeast sold comerecially
> in the US is pretty good -- there's no need to have any sugar at all.
> They'll decompose the starch themselves.
>
> I'm a fan of instant dried yeasts, which are sold in the supermarket
> as bread machine or "Rapid-Rise" yeast. Yeast plant for yeast plant,
> they're no more active than any other yeast, but they're denser, so there
> are more of them per teaspoon. They're also somewhat more likely to
> be alive than active dry yeast, so by mass you get a bit more yeast.
> Control for that, and they're no more rapid than other yeast. They're
> big advantage for me, and the typical home baker, is their ease of use.
> There's no need to rehyrdrate them before use; mix them in the flour, and
> you're set. They've also got a long shelf life: two years in an unopened
> package at room temperature, much longer in a freezer. If you're at all
> serious about baking, buy it in bulk. I can get two pounds of IDY at
> Sam's for about $4. My grocery store wants $8 for a four ounce jar.
>
> As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
> year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
> suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
> for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
> mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
> making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.

On sourdough:

On 8/8/2008 9:11 AM, doublesb wrote:

> I've used champagne yeast for bread with good results. I've also made
> a starter with champagne yeast and let it "sour". Best sourdough bread
> I ever had. Tried other wine yeasts besides champagne yeast with not
> as good results. Try Prisse de Mousse. Make a starter let sit 24 hours
> then add more flour and bake.
>
> Bob

> From: "John Stewart"
[snipped]
> I subscribe to Cook's Illustrated, a truly amazingly good cooking
> magazine. No ads, just extremely well tested recipes and equipment
> reviews (they also have a TV show on PBS, America's Test Kitchen, also
> very good).
>
> Their latest (Jan/Feb 2008) issue includes "No Knead Bread Recipe
> 2.0". They took that New York Times no knead bread recipe, tested it
> with 5 inexperienced bakers, and then improved it based on the
> results.
>
> Two additional ingredients they added, to add depth and character to
> the bread, are a tablespoon of vinegar (to replicate a sourdough type
> flavor) and 3 ounces of mild lager (to add a complexity of flavor not
> delivered by the instant yeast).

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, mail box
> > wrote:
>
>>The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>>cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>>discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>>Bread yeast creates glutens,
>
> No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.
>
>>generates a lot of CO2,
>
> Since CO2 and ethanol are the byproducts of *all* yeast metabolism, it's
> difficult to see how the production of either one would depend on the
> strain
> of yeast used.
>
>>and has a high
>>temperature range, amongst other qualities. Wine/beer yeast has similar
>>but different qualities, and is not as specialized for those tasks which
>>make a good bread yeast.
>
> Higher temperature range is certainly an important characteristic for
> bread
> yeast. Certainly bread dough will rise if made using wine yeast, but I
> wouldn't expect it to rise nearly as much as it normally would, due to the
> lower temperature tolerance of wine yeasts. Why bother, anyway? Wine yeast
> is
> *much* more expensive than bread yeast, and undoubtedly will not do a
> better
> job.

We're just curious to see what would happen. I realize that yeast strains
have been developed over the years to do specific jobs, but sometimes things
have applications other than what they were designed for. E.G., I understand
that Rogaine was being developed as a treatment for high blood pressure when
they noticed that it encouraged hair growth.

Paul

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

In article >, mail box > wrote:
>On 8/8/2008 1:28 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article >, mail box
> > wrote:
>>
>>> The homebrew digest had a recent thread on this subject. Without
>>> cutting and pasting from that forum, what I took away from reading the
>>> discussion was that all yeasts are 'designed' for their environments.
>>> Bread yeast creates glutens,
>>
>> No, it doesn't. Gluten comes from wheat. Not yeast.
>
>Meh, I'm no expert on bread making, having never done it and never
>having researched it. I probably misrepresented the discussion on the
>HBD. Since I can't be certain, I'll post their comments here in
>abbreviated form and trying to maintain proper accreditation:
>
[snip]
> > As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
> > year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
> > suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
> > for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
> > mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
> > making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.

A far cry from claiming that the yeast creates the gluten.

Also incorrect (twice) in its claim that "any dough" will develop gluten "if
allowed to set for a long enough time". In fact, kneading is *necessary* to
create gluten by mechanically mixing the two proteins _in_wheat_ that create
it -- and no amount of kneading, hydration, time, or anything else will create
gluten in a dough made from flour that lacks significant amounts of those
proteins: rye flour, for example. (That's why you need to add wheat flour, or
at least wheat gluten, to your rye flour when making rye bread.)

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

On 8/9/2008 11:09 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> [snip]
>>> As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
>>> year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
>>> suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
>>> for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
>>> mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
>>> making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.
>
> A far cry from claiming that the yeast creates the gluten.

Cut me some slack, will ya? I already issued more than one mia culpa.



Cheers,
Ken

Wine Yeast for Bread Making
 

In article >, mail box > wrote:
>On 8/9/2008 11:09 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>> As for no knead breads go, I'm not impressed by the one that was in NYT a
>>>> year or so ago. It's something of a forgotten fact that any dough with
>>>> suffeicently high hydration, will develop the gluten, if allowed to set
>>>> for a long enough time. It was only with the invention of the mechanical
>>>> mixer that kneading to develop the gluten became the universal way of
>>>> making bread. It saves time and space, and so money.
>>
>> A far cry from claiming that the yeast creates the gluten.
>
>Cut me some slack, will ya? I already issued more than one mia culpa.

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound as critical of you as it does in
retrospect.