I to this point, i have used Cabernet concentrate to make my batches.

I have had the most success when I add yeast nutrients to the
concentrate.

In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS MANUAL" Chapter 12, he
states:

"Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of nitrogen, the lack of an
essential yeast nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively low or
high fermentation temperatures, etc. Whatever the causes, prompt
action is needed, and the stuck fermentation should be restarted as
quickly as possible. "

This fall, when i get my load of real grapes, how will I be able to
detect the lack of nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?

Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of both to the must?

I really don't want to screw this up.

Wayne Harris wrote:

> I to this point, i have used Cabernet
> concentrate to make my batches.
>
> I have had the most success when I add yeast
> nutrients to the concentrate.
>
> In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS
> MANUAL" Chapter 12, he states:
>
> "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of
> nitrogen, the lack of an essential yeast
> nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively
> low or high fermentation temperatures, etc.
> Whatever the causes, prompt action is needed,
> and the stuck fermentation should be restarted
> as quickly as possible. "
>
> This fall, when i get my load of real grapes,
> how will I be able to detect the lack of
> nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>
> Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of both
> to the must?
>
> I really don't want to screw this up.

I would follow the manufactures mid range value -
unless you want to send out some must for an
analysis which I doubt seriously if most posting
here do that.

On May 22, 3:01*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> Wayne Harris wrote:
> > I to this point, i have used Cabernet
> > concentrate to make my batches.
>
> > I have had the most success when I add yeast
> > nutrients to the concentrate.
>
> > In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS
> > MANUAL" Chapter 12, he states:
>
> > "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of
> > nitrogen, the lack of an essential yeast
> > nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively
> > low or high fermentation temperatures, etc.
> > Whatever the causes, prompt action is needed,
> > and the stuck fermentation should be restarted
> > as quickly as possible. "
>
> > This fall, when i get my load of real grapes,
> > how will I be able to detect the lack of
> > nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>
> > Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of *both
> > to the must?
>
> > I really don't want to screw this up.
>
> I would follow the manufactures mid range value -
> unless you want to send out some must for an
> analysis which I doubt seriously if most posting
> here do that.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I actually use the minimum suggested and smell the must the first few
days for 'stink'. If i don't smell anything it's OK. A good rule of
thiumb is to stuip up the must before adding the yeast to get some
oxygen in there; the yeast like it early on.

Joe

On May 23, 9:45*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On May 22, 3:01*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wayne Harris wrote:
> > > I to this point, i have used Cabernet
> > > concentrate to make my batches.
>
> > > I have had the most success when I add yeast
> > > nutrients to the concentrate.
>
> > > In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS
> > > MANUAL" Chapter 12, he states:
>
> > > "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of
> > > nitrogen, the lack of an essential yeast
> > > nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively
> > > low or high fermentation temperatures, etc.
> > > Whatever the causes, prompt action is needed,
> > > and the stuck fermentation should be restarted
> > > as quickly as possible. "
>
> > > This fall, when i get my load of real grapes,
> > > how will I be able to detect the lack of
> > > nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>
> > > Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of *both
> > > to the must?
>
> > > I really don't want to screw this up.
>
> > I would follow the manufactures mid range value -
> > unless you want to send out some must for an
> > analysis which I doubt seriously if most posting
> > here do that.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I actually use the minimum suggested and smell the must the first few
> days for 'stink'. *If i don't smell anything it's OK. *A good rule of
> thiumb is to stuip up the must before adding the yeast to get some
> oxygen in there; the yeast like it early on.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't seem to get H2S issues (knock on wood), but in the last 2
years or so, since we started getting high sugar premium grapes from
California, the red ferments seem to last forever, 3 weeks and more,
and that with regular nutrient doses (Fermaid K) added and at typical
temperatures. Some of those batches also developed noticeable levels
of VA. My theory at this point is that the YAN levels are too low on
those grapes, leading to sluggish ferments.

So my recommendation for Wayne's situation - this being his first
grape batch and a big one at that (was it 1400 lbs?) - actually would
be to have the YAN levels measured in a lab and adjust the nutrients
based on the result, especially if the grapes come in with high sugar
levels.

Pp

The timing of nutrient addition is also worth mentioning. I've had
the best results by adding nutrients (DAP and Superferment) in 2
aliquots rather then all at once. The first half is added once
fermentation is started and the second at about 12 - 15 Brix.
Waiting until fermentation is underway may help avoid encouraging
growth among other microorganisms that you don't want to flourish.

RD

RD wrote:
> The timing of nutrient addition is also worth mentioning. I've had
> the best results by adding nutrients (DAP and Superferment) in 2
> aliquots rather then all at once. The first half is added once
> fermentation is started and the second at about 12 - 15 Brix.
> Waiting until fermentation is underway may help avoid encouraging
> growth among other microorganisms that you don't want to flourish.
>
> RD
>

I also subscribe to the practice of incremental yeast nutrient additions
(two or three smaller aliquots) rather than all at once at the start of
fermentation.

Adding all the yeast nutrient at once at the start of fermentation
encourages a very active fermentation (observed as heavy foaming).
Highly active fermentations encourage carbamate production.

I try to minimize carbamate production... it's not good for us
healthwise and is largely avoidable. I get all the carbamates I 'need'
<grin> from french fries and other fried foods, so I like to avoid them
in my wine.

Carbamates in wine are naturally occurring metabolic byproducts of wine
fermentation, originating from the amino acid arginine. We can't
eliminate arginine from the naturally occurring amino acid 'soup'; we
can only minimize its conversion into carbamates by adding DAP in the
minimum incremental amounts needed to prevent stinky/stuck fermentations.

Gene

On May 23, 7:13*pm, pp > wrote:
> On May 23, 9:45*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 22, 3:01*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > Wayne Harris wrote:
> > > > I to this point, i have used Cabernet
> > > > concentrate to make my batches.
>
> > > > I have had the most success when I add yeast
> > > > nutrients to the concentrate.
>
> > > > In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS
> > > > MANUAL" Chapter 12, he states:
>
> > > > "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of
> > > > nitrogen, the lack of an essential yeast
> > > > nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively
> > > > low or high fermentation temperatures, etc.
> > > > Whatever the causes, prompt action is needed,
> > > > and the stuck fermentation should be restarted
> > > > as quickly as possible. "
>
> > > > This fall, when i get my load of real grapes,
> > > > how will I be able to detect the lack of
> > > > nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>
> > > > Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of *both
> > > > to the must?
>
> > > > I really don't want to screw this up.
>
> > > I would follow the manufactures mid range value -
> > > unless you want to send out some must for an
> > > analysis which I doubt seriously if most posting
> > > here do that.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I actually use the minimum suggested and smell the must the first few
> > days for 'stink'. *If i don't smell anything it's OK. *A good rule of
> > thiumb is to stuip up the must before adding the yeast to get some
> > oxygen in there; the yeast like it early on.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't seem to get H2S issues (knock on wood), but in the last 2
> years or so, since we started getting high sugar premium grapes from
> California, the red ferments seem to last forever, 3 weeks and more,
> and that with regular nutrient doses (Fermaid K) added and at typical
> temperatures. Some of those batches also developed noticeable levels
> of VA. My theory at this point is that the YAN levels are too low on
> those grapes, leading to sluggish ferments.
>
> So my recommendation for Wayne's situation - this being his first
> grape batch and a big one at that (was it 1400 lbs?) - actually would
> be to have the YAN levels measured in a lab and adjust the nutrients
> based on the result, especially if the grapes come in with high sugar
> levels.
>
> Pp

Purely out of interest for those of us with lesser experience in this
field ...

Could you enlighten me as to how quick the turnaround is on a lab
analysis, how much juice should be required, how you'd find a company
to carry it out and how much it costs?

Sorry if this is a dumb question... Many thanks...

Jim

On May 24, 5:13*pm, jim c > wrote:
> On May 23, 7:13*pm, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 23, 9:45*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On May 22, 3:01*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > > Wayne Harris wrote:
> > > > > I to this point, i have used Cabernet
> > > > > concentrate to make my batches.
>
> > > > > I have had the most success when I add yeast
> > > > > nutrients to the concentrate.
>
> > > > > In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS
> > > > > MANUAL" Chapter 12, he states:
>
> > > > > "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of
> > > > > nitrogen, the lack of an essential yeast
> > > > > nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively
> > > > > low or high fermentation temperatures, etc.
> > > > > Whatever the causes, prompt action is needed,
> > > > > and the stuck fermentation should be restarted
> > > > > as quickly as possible. "
>
> > > > > This fall, when i get my load of real grapes,
> > > > > how will I be able to detect the lack of
> > > > > nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>
> > > > > Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of *both
> > > > > to the must?
>
> > > > > I really don't want to screw this up.
>
> > > > I would follow the manufactures mid range value -
> > > > unless you want to send out some must for an
> > > > analysis which I doubt seriously if most posting
> > > > here do that.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I actually use the minimum suggested and smell the must the first few
> > > days for 'stink'. *If i don't smell anything it's OK. *A good rule of
> > > thiumb is to stuip up the must before adding the yeast to get some
> > > oxygen in there; the yeast like it early on.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I don't seem to get H2S issues (knock on wood), but in the last 2
> > years or so, since we started getting high sugar premium grapes from
> > California, the red ferments seem to last forever, 3 weeks and more,
> > and that with regular nutrient doses (Fermaid K) added and at typical
> > temperatures. Some of those batches also developed noticeable levels
> > of VA. My theory at this point is that the YAN levels are too low on
> > those grapes, leading to sluggish ferments.
>
> > So my recommendation for Wayne's situation - this being his first
> > grape batch and a big one at that (was it 1400 lbs?) - actually would
> > be to have the YAN levels measured in a lab and adjust the nutrients
> > based on the result, especially if the grapes come in with high sugar
> > levels.
>
> > Pp
>
> Purely out of interest for those of us with lesser experience in this
> field ...
>
> Could you enlighten me as to how quick the turnaround is on a lab
> analysis, how much juice should be required, how you'd find a company
> to carry it out and how much it costs?
>
> Sorry if this is a dumb question... *Many thanks...
>
> Jim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry Jim, haven't done this through a lab myself so can't comment on
this. Lab tests are really only practical if you live in a wine region
- don't you live in England? We're lucky because a member of our club
went through the trouble of making up some test kits for YAN, so last
fall we ran some tests ourselves. It's finicky but doable within about
1 hr as long as you don't mind working with some pretty nasty
chemicals. But I wouldn't have done the test without being pretty sure
my red grapes that year were seriously YAN deficient.

Pp

It is possible to have a lab test for YAN (yeast assimilable nitrogen)
.... but that is costly and time consuming, not something most home
winemakers do. Quite a few commercial wineries don't do it either.

I err on the side of caution. I add DAP (diammonium phosphate) and
nutrients at the outset of fermentation. There are numerous sources on
how much to add; I use apx. 20 to 40 g of DAP per 10 gallons of must,
and 20 g of superfood per 10 gallons of must. If I'm dealing with
grapes that have previously been prone to H2S, or if I suspect low
nitrogen (growing conditions), Imight add more DAP.




On 2008-05-22 06:50:30 -0700, Wayne Harris > said:

> I to this point, i have used Cabernet concentrate to make my batches.
>
> I have had the most success when I add yeast nutrients to the
> concentrate.
>
> In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS MANUAL" Chapter 12, he
> states:
>
> "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of nitrogen, the lack of an
> essential yeast nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively low or
> high fermentation temperatures, etc. Whatever the causes, prompt
> action is needed, and the stuck fermentation should be restarted as
> quickly as possible. "
>
> This fall, when i get my load of real grapes, how will I be able to
> detect the lack of nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>
> Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of both to the must?
>
> I really don't want to screw this up.

Now I'm getting worried. I've been making fruit wines for 30 yrs on an
off and on basis and never had H2S or a stuck fermentation without ever
using any nutrients. Is this a grape specific problem? I may have
enough grapes for some wine this year.

Dick

AxisOfBeagles wrote:
> It is possible to have a lab test for YAN (yeast assimilable nitrogen)
> ... but that is costly and time consuming, not something most home
> winemakers do. Quite a few commercial wineries don't do it either.
>
> I err on the side of caution. I add DAP (diammonium phosphate) and
> nutrients at the outset of fermentation. There are numerous sources on
> how much to add; I use apx. 20 to 40 g of DAP per 10 gallons of must,
> and 20 g of superfood per 10 gallons of must. If I'm dealing with grapes
> that have previously been prone to H2S, or if I suspect low nitrogen
> (growing conditions), Imight add more DAP.
>
>
>
>
> On 2008-05-22 06:50:30 -0700, Wayne Harris > said:
>
>> I to this point, i have used Cabernet concentrate to make my batches.
>>
>> I have had the most success when I add yeast nutrients to the
>> concentrate.
>>
>> In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS MANUAL" Chapter 12, he
>> states:
>>
>> "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of nitrogen, the lack of an
>> essential yeast nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively low or
>> high fermentation temperatures, etc. Whatever the causes, prompt
>> action is needed, and the stuck fermentation should be restarted as
>> quickly as possible. "
>>
>> This fall, when i get my load of real grapes, how will I be able to
>> detect the lack of nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
>>
>> Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of both to the must?
>>
>> I really don't want to screw this up.
>
>

Every yeast has a different nutrient/nitrogen requirement. Prisse de
Mouse's requirements are low. Is that what you use?

Dick Heckman wrote:
> Now I'm getting worried. I've been making fruit wines for 30 yrs on an
> off and on basis and never had H2S or a stuck fermentation without ever
> using any nutrients. Is this a grape specific problem? I may have
> enough grapes for some wine this year.
>
> Dick
>
> AxisOfBeagles wrote:
> > It is possible to have a lab test for YAN (yeast assimilable nitrogen)
> > ... but that is costly and time consuming, not something most home
> > winemakers do. Quite a few commercial wineries don't do it either.
> >
> > I err on the side of caution. I add DAP (diammonium phosphate) and
> > nutrients at the outset of fermentation. There are numerous sources on
> > how much to add; I use apx. 20 to 40 g of DAP per 10 gallons of must,
> > and 20 g of superfood per 10 gallons of must. If I'm dealing with grapes
> > that have previously been prone to H2S, or if I suspect low nitrogen
> > (growing conditions), Imight add more DAP.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2008-05-22 06:50:30 -0700, Wayne Harris > said:
> >
> >> I to this point, i have used Cabernet concentrate to make my batches.
> >>
> >> I have had the most success when I add yeast nutrients to the
> >> concentrate.
> >>
> >> In reading Lum Eisenman's "THE HOME WINEMAKERS MANUAL" Chapter 12, he
> >> states:
> >>
> >> "Stuck fermentations can be due to a lack of nitrogen, the lack of an
> >> essential yeast nutrient, the use of damaged yeast, excessively low or
> >> high fermentation temperatures, etc. Whatever the causes, prompt
> >> action is needed, and the stuck fermentation should be restarted as
> >> quickly as possible. "
> >>
> >> This fall, when i get my load of real grapes, how will I be able to
> >> detect the lack of nitrogen, or lack of yeast nutrient?
> >>
> >> Or do i simply add appropriate amounts of both to the must?
> >>
> >> I really don't want to screw this up.
> >
> >

Our local brewing supply store originally only had Montrachet and I got
used to it. I understand that it is known to cause H2S but I've never
had any problems. Recently, I noticed that they have several new yeasts
but I haven't tried any yet.

Dick


wrote:
> Every yeast has a different nutrient/nitrogen requirement. Prisse de
> Mouse's requirements are low. Is that what you use?
>
> Dick Heckman wrote:
>> Now I'm getting worried. I've been making fruit wines for 30 yrs on an
>> off and on basis and never had H2S or a stuck fermentation without ever
>> using any nutrients. Is this a grape specific problem? I may have
>> enough grapes for some wine this year.
>>
>> Dick
>>
>>

I have made fruit wines from all sorts of random frozen juice concentrates
from the grocery store (including 100% grape juice, but many others --
apple, apple + random other juice blend, pomegranate-blueberry,
kiwi-orange-strawberry, or whatever else they have: so many to choose
from!), and none of them has seemed to *need* yeast nutrients. I never
smelled H2S and never had a stuck fermentation. Without the nutrients, some
of them do ferment quite slowly, however (as in still bubbling after 2-3
months).

Utopia in Decay -- The future is coming to get you.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevin.cherkauer/site/

Kevin Cherkauer


"Dick Heckman" > wrote in message
...
> Now I'm getting worried. I've been making fruit wines for 30 yrs on an
> off and on basis and never had H2S or a stuck fermentation without ever
> using any nutrients. Is this a grape specific problem? I may have
> enough grapes for some wine this year.
>
> Dick