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pp pp is offline
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Posts: 308
Default Adding Acid

On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > Here is the story:
> > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > has finished primary.
> > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > 4%
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > good

>
> > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > Crap
> > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > amount.

>
> > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > reality check on them.

>
> > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> a kit.
> To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> etc..
> I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> chromatography, and a TA test.
> Then cold stabilize.
>
> If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp
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Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
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Posts: 101
Default Adding Acid

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > 4%
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > good

>
> > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > Crap
> > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > amount.

>
> > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > reality check on them.

>
> > > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

>
> > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > a kit.
> > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > etc..
> > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

>
> > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

>
> > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > Then cold stabilize.

>
> > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Keller
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
"Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
acid or citric acid."

  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
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Posts: 917
Default Adding Acid

On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > good

>
> > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > amount.

>
> > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > reality check on them.

>
> > > > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

>
> > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > a kit.
> > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > etc..
> > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

>
> > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

>
> > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > Then cold stabilize.

>
> > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

>
> > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

>
> > Pp- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid..asp
> "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? If tartaric, chilling
will get rid of the excess.

If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. It can
have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
the shelf. More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
affected by MLF.

Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.

Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
reduction that may help is the double salt method.

Joe
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Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
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Posts: 101
Default Adding Acid

On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > good

>
> > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2..airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > amount.

>
> > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > > > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > reality check on them.

>
> > > > > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

>
> > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > a kit.
> > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > etc..
> > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

>
> > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

>
> > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > Then cold stabilize.

>
> > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

>
> > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

>
> > > Pp- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> will get rid of the excess.
>
> If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> affected by MLF.
>
> Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.
>
> Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> reduction that may help is the double salt method.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I used straight tartaric acid.

Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.

Plan B: I will chill it.

Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Adding Acid

On Mar 18, 8:26*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > > good

>
> > > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > > amount.

>
> > > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > > > > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > > reality check on them.

>
> > > > > > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

>
> > > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > > a kit.
> > > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > > etc..
> > > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

>
> > > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

>
> > > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > > Then cold stabilize.

>
> > > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

>
> > > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

>
> > > > Pp- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> > will get rid of the excess.

>
> > If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> > spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> > have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> > the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> > affected by MLF.

>
> > Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.

>
> > Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> > reduction that may help is the double salt method.

>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> I used straight tartaric acid.
>
> Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
>
> Plan B: *I will chill it.
>
> Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Keep in mind that when using grape concentrate, the TA will rise
during the fermentation. Normally, the rise will be about 1 - 2 grams
per litre so you should account for that in your tests. For example,
your original test of .3% (3 grams per litre) would probably have
ended up at .45 - .5% after fermentation.


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 101
Default Adding Acid

On Mar 18, 9:14*am, wrote:
> On Mar 18, 8:26*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:

>
> > > > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > > > good

>
> > > > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0..7% *After
> > > > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > > > amount.

>
> > > > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > > > > > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > > > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > > > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > > > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > > > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > > > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > > > reality check on them.

>
> > > > > > > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

>
> > > > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > > > a kit.
> > > > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > > > etc..
> > > > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

>
> > > > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

>
> > > > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > > > Then cold stabilize.

>
> > > > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of ..x
> > > > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

>
> > > > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

>
> > > > > Pp- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > > > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > > > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > > > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > > > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > > > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> > > will get rid of the excess.

>
> > > If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> > > spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> > > have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> > > the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> > > affected by MLF.

>
> > > Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.

>
> > > Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> > > reduction that may help is the double salt method.

>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > I used straight tartaric acid.

>
> > Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> > I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> > Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.

>
> > Plan B: *I will chill it.

>
> > Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Keep in mind that when using grape concentrate, the TA will rise
> during the fermentation. Normally, the rise will be about 1 - 2 grams
> per litre so you should account for that in your tests. For example,
> your original test of .3% (3 grams per litre) would probably have
> ended up at .45 - .5% after fermentation.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Thanks, i did not know this.
Interesting. and this effect is limited to juice from concentrate
only?
I what the difference is between juice from concentrate and fresh
juice is that makes this occur.


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Default Adding Acid

> I used straight tartaric acid.

Ok, chilling is your best option but you already added the ML
culture. It won't do anything at very cold temperatures, MLF is
better at room temperature. It's common to see tiny little fast
rising bubbles with MLF. Is the sulfite level low? it needs to be
under 30 or maybe even 20 PPM free to work; that and your pH is
probably too low for MLF if it's 3.0 or less you may have issues with
MLF.

I would suggest you try chilling if any of the preceeding exist.

Joe

>
> Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
> - Show quoted text -


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Default Adding Acid

On Mar 18, 12:29*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> > I used straight tartaric acid.

>
> Ok, chilling is your best option but you already added the ML
> culture. *It won't do anything at very cold temperatures, MLF is
> better at room temperature. *It's common to see tiny little fast
> rising bubbles with MLF. *Is the sulfite level low? *it needs to be
> under 30 or maybe even 20 PPM free to work; that and your pH is
> probably too low for MLF if it's 3.0 or less you may have issues with
> MLF.
>
> I would suggest you try chilling if any of the preceeding exist.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> > I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> > Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


I don't have a pH meter, but i have intentially kept my sulfite level
low in case i wanted to try MLF. (I kinda did anyway).
Its currenlty at 16PPM
I would imagine if my TA is at .82% that my pH is low. (Bad
assumption?)
Thats just a guess though.

Taking wine to garage.



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Default Adding Acid

On Mar 18, 2:10*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 18, 12:29*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I used straight tartaric acid.

>
> > Ok, chilling is your best option but you already added the ML
> > culture. *It won't do anything at very cold temperatures, MLF is
> > better at room temperature. *It's common to see tiny little fast
> > rising bubbles with MLF. *Is the sulfite level low? *it needs to be
> > under 30 or maybe even 20 PPM free to work; that and your pH is
> > probably too low for MLF if it's 3.0 or less you may have issues with
> > MLF.

>
> > I would suggest you try chilling if any of the preceeding exist.

>
> > Joe

>
> > > Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> > > I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> > > Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> I don't have a pH meter, *but i have intentially kept my sulfite level
> low in case i wanted to try MLF. (I kinda did anyway).
> Its currenlty at 16PPM
> I would imagine if my TA is at .82% that my pH is low. (Bad
> assumption?)
> Thats just a guess though.
>
> Taking wine to garage.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


No, you are probably right. You added tartaric which swings pH the
most so it is probably at least 3.2 or lower. If you get it to
around 0.6% I think you will be happy with it.

Joe



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Default Adding Acid

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:

>
> > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > the acid balance.

>
> > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:

>
> > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

>
> > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > calculated the following:

>
> > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

>
> > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > 4%
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I added another 20g.

>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I then added *40g.

>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > good

>
> > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > Crap
> > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.

>
> > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > dissolve?

>
> > > > > Where did I go wrong?

>
> > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > hours or even a day.

>
> > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > more, especially so soon.

>
> > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > tool often to work out my wine details.

>
> > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

>
> > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > harm if it is done gently...

>
> > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > amount.

>
> > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > it can't hurt...

>
> > > > Good luck, Jim

>
> > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

>
> > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

>
> > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > pull excess tartaric out

>
> > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > reality check on them.

>
> > > Don't give up, chill it.

>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

>
> > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > a kit.
> > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > etc..
> > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

>
> > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

>
> > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > Then cold stabilize.

>
> > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Agreed on both and Wayne, I did the same thing on my first wine from
cans; I just didn't add as much... Experience is a bitter
teacher...

Joe


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