This is a subject that has come up time from time in this group. I
think i have read up on this enough to know what it is, and how to
work with it.

My bigger question is this. How many of you out there that re trying
to make a quality dry red wine actually induce a Malolactic
fermentation cycle.

Here is why I ask. I plan on getting 75 gallons of fresh crushed
California Cabernet Sauvignon grapes this fall and want to take my
wine making to the next level on both quality and quantity.

I am reading furiously and meeting folks who make a lot more wine than
I do. Twice now, I have personally met winemakers that have been
making wine for 50+ years and ask them a technical question about
freee SO2 or PH levels, or Acid blends, and both times i get the same
general response:
An exhasperated "Wayne, I just smash the grapes. You are waaay over
thinking it."

Not those words exactly, but close.

So my question is this. How many folks really do go out and buy the
malolactic cultures like leuconostoc oenos and induce MLF? Is this
common?

I would say 'yes - it is very common'. One of the main reasons for
inducing MLF is to ensure that the subsequently bottled red wines don't
spontaneously go into MLF while in the bottle. Another is to change the
acid profile, thereby the taste profile (malic acid being a crisper,
more tart taste, better suited to crisp, lively white wines).

Possibly you are overthinking things. Then again, possibly those two
winemakers are underthinking things.




On 2008-02-21 10:11:49 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:

> This is a subject that has come up time from time in this group. I
> think i have read up on this enough to know what it is, and how to
> work with it.
>
> My bigger question is this. How many of you out there that re trying
> to make a quality dry red wine actually induce a Malolactic
> fermentation cycle.
>
> Here is why I ask. I plan on getting 75 gallons of fresh crushed
> California Cabernet Sauvignon grapes this fall and want to take my
> wine making to the next level on both quality and quantity.
>
> I am reading furiously and meeting folks who make a lot more wine than
> I do. Twice now, I have personally met winemakers that have been
> making wine for 50+ years and ask them a technical question about
> freee SO2 or PH levels, or Acid blends, and both times i get the same
> general response:
> An exhasperated "Wayne, I just smash the grapes. You are waaay over
> thinking it."
>
> Not those words exactly, but close.
>
> So my question is this. How many folks really do go out and buy the
> malolactic cultures like leuconostoc oenos and induce MLF? Is this
> common?

On Feb 21, 1:36*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> I would say 'yes - it is very common'. One of the main reasons for
> inducing MLF is to ensure that the subsequently bottled red wines don't
> spontaneously go into MLF while in the bottle. Another is to change the
> acid profile, thereby the taste profile (malic acid being a crisper,
> more tart taste, better suited to crisp, lively white wines).
>
> Possibly you are overthinking things. Then again, possibly those two
> winemakers are underthinking things.
>
> On 2008-02-21 10:11:49 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
>
>
> > This is a subject that has come up time from time in this group. *I
> > think i have read up on this enough to know what it is, and how to
> > work with it.
>
> > My bigger question is this. *How many of you out there that re trying
> > to make a quality dry red wine actually induce a Malolactic
> > fermentation cycle.
>
> > Here is why I ask. *I plan on getting 75 gallons of fresh crushed
> > California Cabernet Sauvignon grapes this fall and want to take my
> > wine making to the next level on both quality and quantity.
>
> > I am reading furiously and meeting folks who make a lot more wine than
> > I do. Twice now, I have personally met winemakers that have been
> > making wine for 50+ years and ask them a technical question about
> > freee SO2 or PH levels, or Acid blends, and both times i get the same
> > general response:
> > An exhasperated "Wayne, I just smash the grapes. You are waaay over
> > thinking it."
>
> > Not those words exactly, but close.
>
> > So my question is this. *How many folks really do go out and buy the
> > malolactic cultures like leuconostoc oenos and induce MLF? *Is this
> > common?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Do you use chromotography to monitor your MLF?

Paper chromatography, yes. But it is a once a year sort of deal. I test
my reds to ensure that mlf is complete before I consider bottling. In
my cellar, mlf usually gets going well soon after primary, but then
stalls during the winter (temps in the cellar drop to anywhere between
56 and 59). Kicks in again in the spring. But I always test later in
the year to be sure - before bottling.



On 2008-02-21 11:45:03 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> Do you use chromotography to monitor your MLF?

On Feb 21, 6:22*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> Paper chromatography, yes. But it is a once a year sort of deal. I test
> my reds to ensure that mlf is complete before I consider bottling. In
> my cellar, mlf usually gets going well soon after primary, but then
> stalls during the winter (temps in the cellar drop to anywhere between
> 56 and 59). Kicks in again in the spring. But I always test later in
> the year to be sure - before bottling.
>
> On 2008-02-21 11:45:03 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Do you use chromotography to monitor your MLF?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I hate to keep bending your ear, but I will until you tell me to
stop.

When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
at start?
-or-
50% through?
75% through?
90% through?

This is the question that will likely generate some debate.

I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
until better information convinces me otherwise.

How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?



On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
> at start?
> -or-
> 50% through?
> 75% through?
> 90% through?

On Feb 21, 7:06*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
> far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
> biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
> before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
> years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
> > at start?
> > -or-
> > 50% through?
> > 75% through?
> > 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

When do I Inooculate?
Let me quote a wise man:
"So I now innoculate late in primary - soon before press."



I've never done it. But read enough to know that I think i should be.
BTW, everything I know about MLF I am reading in Philip Jackisch's
"Modern Winemaking" book. In it, he states:
"The ML culture can be added to red wines at the time of pressing,
ordinarily at about 5 deg Brix. and should be 1-5 of the volume of the
juice."
That is from Chapter 5 "Microorganisms and Fermentation" Page 79.

So, sounds like the old timers were dead on.

Only thing I don;t understand there - "shold be 1-5 of the volume of
the juice" ?? what does that mean?

I buy the small dried bacteria packets. I pitch them directly into the
fermenting must. Some folks start it in water, much as we do yeast (for
my reds, i figure it has a year or two to do it's thing, so I'm not too
worried about making it start right away - but it always does!).



On 2008-02-21 17:05:11 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
>
> I've never done it. But read enough to know that I think i should be.
> BTW, everything I know about MLF I am reading in Philip Jackisch's
> "Modern Winemaking" book. In it, he states:
> "The ML culture can be added to red wines at the time of pressing,
> ordinarily at about 5 deg Brix. and should be 1-5 of the volume of the
> juice."
> That is from Chapter 5 "Microorganisms and Fermentation" Page 79.
>
> So, sounds like the old timers were dead on.

On Feb 21, 8:49*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> Only thing I don;t understand there - "shold be 1-5 of the volume of
> the juice" ?? what does that mean?
>
> I buy the small dried bacteria packets. I pitch them directly into the
> fermenting must. Some folks start it in water, much as we do yeast (for
> my reds, i figure it has a year or two to do it's thing, so I'm not too
> worried about making it start right away - but it always does!).
>
> On 2008-02-21 17:05:11 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> > I've never done it. But read enough to know that I think i should be.
> > BTW, everything I know about MLF I am reading in Philip Jackisch's
> > "Modern Winemaking" book. *In it, he states:
> > "The ML culture can be added to red wines at the time of pressing,
> > ordinarily at about 5 deg Brix. and should be 1-5 of the volume of the
> > juice."
> > That is from Chapter 5 "Microorganisms and Fermentation" *Page 79.
>
> > So, sounds like the old timers were dead on.

Sorry - potential Typo:

Should have read "1-5% of the total volume"

Very sorry.

Lum is much to modest:

http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html


Look for: ferment sugar

Take Care,
Steve
Oregon


On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles >
wrote:

>This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
>I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
>presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
>alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
>far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
>undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
>biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
>before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
>years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
>until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
>How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
>
>
>On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>>
>> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
>> at start?
>> -or-
>> 50% through?
>> 75% through?
>> 90% through?
>

On Feb 22, 11:54*pm, spud > wrote:
> Lum is much to modest:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> Look for: ferment sugar
>
> Take Care,
> Steve
> Oregon
>
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
> >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
> >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
> >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
> >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
> >> at start?
> >> -or-
> >> 50% through?
> >> 75% through?
> >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nice read, Thanks Steve.

In reading from the www.morewine.com web site about ML cultures I
read this:

"Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."


With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
to make good wine.

On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Lum is much to modest:
>
> >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> > Take Care,
> > Steve
> > Oregon
>
> > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles >
> > wrote:
>
> > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
> > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
> > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
> > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
> > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
> > >> at start?
> > >> -or-
> > >> 50% through?
> > >> 75% through?
> > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Nice read, Thanks Steve.
>
> In reading from thewww.morewine.comweb site about ML cultures I
> read this:
>
> "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
> the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
> time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
> am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
> to make good wine.

Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.

As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
the latter.



Joe

Joe

Joe ,

I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.

Bob


On Feb 24, 6:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > > Lum is much to modest:
>
> > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> > > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> > > Take Care,
> > > Steve
> > > Oregon
>
> > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
> > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
> > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
> > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
> > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
> > > >> at start?
> > > >> -or-
> > > >> 50% through?
> > > >> 75% through?
> > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Nice read, *Thanks Steve.
>
> > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsite about ML cultures *I
> > read this:
>
> > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
> > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
> > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
> > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
> > to make good wine.
>
> Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
> of my grapes are low acid to begin with. *Proper sulfite levels can be
> used to prevent spontaneous MLF. * *It really depends on your grapes,
> if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
> lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. *Mine are usually the
> opposite. *If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
> pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
> sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>
> As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
> happens on it's own. *I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
> I keep things relatively clean *and get spontaneous MLF often if my
> sulfite levels dip. *If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
> at it. *I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. *I
> never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
> the latter.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe

On Feb 25, 9:58*am, wrote:
> Joe ,
>
> I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
> way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
> before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
> that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
> mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
> MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.
>
> Bob
>
> On Feb 24, 6:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > > > Lum is much to modest:
>
> > > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> > > > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> > > > Take Care,
> > > > Steve
> > > > Oregon
>
> > > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> > > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> > > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> > > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to knowing
> > > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> > > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of the
> > > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary - soon
> > > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this two
> > > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> > > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> > > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> > > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris > said:
>
> > > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for MLF?
> > > > >> at start?
> > > > >> -or-
> > > > >> 50% through?
> > > > >> 75% through?
> > > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Nice read, *Thanks Steve.
>
> > > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteabout ML cultures *I
> > > read this:
>
> > > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
> > > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> > > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
> > > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> > > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
> > > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
> > > to make good wine.
>
> > Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
> > of my grapes are low acid to begin with. *Proper sulfite levels can be
> > used to prevent spontaneous MLF. * *It really depends on your grapes,
> > if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
> > lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. *Mine are usually the
> > opposite. *If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
> > pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
> > sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>
> > As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
> > happens on it's own. *I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
> > I keep things relatively clean *and get spontaneous MLF often if my
> > sulfite levels dip. *If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
> > at it. *I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. *I
> > never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
> > the latter.
>
> > Joe
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \

Can you describe the odor?

"Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:
> Joe ,
>
> I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
> way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
> before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
> that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
> mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
> MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.
>
> Bob
>
> On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > > > Lum is much to modest:
>
> > > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> > > > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> > > > Take Care,
> > > > Steve
> > > > Oregon
>
> > > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles
> > > > >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> > > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> > > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> > > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
> > > > >knowing
> > > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> > > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of
> > > > >the
> > > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
> > > > >soon
> > > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this
> > > > >two
> > > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> > > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> > > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> > > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
> > > > > said:
>
> > > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
> > > > >> MLF?
> > > > >> at start?
> > > > >> -or-
> > > > >> 50% through?
> > > > >> 75% through?
> > > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Nice read, Thanks Steve.
>
> > > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteabout ML cultures I
> > > read this:
>
> > > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
> > > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> > > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
> > > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> > > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
> > > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
> > > to make good wine.
>
> > Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
> > of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
> > used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
> > if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
> > lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
> > opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
> > pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
> > sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>
> > As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
> > happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
> > I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
> > sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
> > at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
> > never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
> > the latter.
>
> > Joe
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \

Can you describe the odor?

I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.

Lum,

I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
that smell come from some other process during primary??

TIA

Bob


> "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Joe ,
>
> > I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
> > way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
> > before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
> > that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
> > mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
> > MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.
>
> > Bob
>
> > On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > > > > Lum is much to modest:
>
> > > > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> > > > > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> > > > > Take Care,
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > Oregon
>
> > > > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles
> > > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> > > > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> > > > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
> > > > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
> > > > > >knowing
> > > > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> > > > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of
> > > > > >the
> > > > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
> > > > > >soon
> > > > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this
> > > > > >two
> > > > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
> > > > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> > > > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> > > > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
> > > > > > said:
>
> > > > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
> > > > > >> MLF?
> > > > > >> at start?
> > > > > >> -or-
> > > > > >> 50% through?
> > > > > >> 75% through?
> > > > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Nice read, Thanks Steve.
>
> > > > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutML cultures I
> > > > read this:
>
> > > > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
> > > > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> > > > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
> > > > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> > > > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
> > > > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
> > > > to make good wine.
>
> > > Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
> > > of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
> > > used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
> > > if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
> > > lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
> > > opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
> > > pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
> > > sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>
> > > As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
> > > happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
> > > I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
> > > sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
> > > at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
> > > never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
> > > the latter.
>
> > > Joe
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \
>
> Can you describe the odor?
>
> I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.

Bob,
Red wines that have gone through mlf usually contain 2 or 3 time as much
diacetyl as wines that have not gone through mlf. So, the yeast can produce
some diacetyl but mlf bacteria produce more. I find that buttery smell
difficult to detect during primary fermentation. You must have a good
smeller.
Good luck with your winemaking.
Lum
> wrote in message
...
> Lum,
>
> I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
> assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
> that smell come from some other process during primary??
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>
>
>> "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Joe ,
>>
>> > I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
>> > way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
>> > before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
>> > that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
>> > mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
>> > MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> > On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > Lum is much to modest:
>>
>> > > > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>>
>> > > > > Look for: ferment sugar
>>
>> > > > > Take Care,
>> > > > > Steve
>> > > > > Oregon
>>
>> > > > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>>
>> > > > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
>> > > > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while
>> > > > > >the
>> > > > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
>> > > > > >knowing
>> > > > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
>> > > > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain
>> > > > > >of
>> > > > > >the
>> > > > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
>> > > > > >soon
>> > > > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done
>> > > > > >this
>> > > > > >two
>> > > > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing
>> > > > > >thus
>> > > > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>>
>> > > > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>>
>> > > > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
>> > > > > > said:
>>
>> > > > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
>> > > > > >> MLF?
>> > > > > >> at start?
>> > > > > >> -or-
>> > > > > >> 50% through?
>> > > > > >> 75% through?
>> > > > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > > Nice read, Thanks Steve.
>>
>> > > > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutML cultures I
>> > > > read this:
>>
>> > > > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete
>> > > > with
>> > > > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
>> > > > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The
>> > > > best
>> > > > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>>
>> > > > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking,
>> > > > I
>> > > > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on
>> > > > it
>> > > > to make good wine.
>>
>> > > Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
>> > > of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
>> > > used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
>> > > if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
>> > > lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
>> > > opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
>> > > pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
>> > > sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>>
>> > > As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
>> > > happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
>> > > I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
>> > > sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
>> > > at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
>> > > never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
>> > > the latter.
>>
>> > > Joe
>>
>> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \
>>
>> Can you describe the odor?
>>
>> I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.
>

The red wines I ferment are eastern reds. They have much more Malic
acid so I think the smell is stronger. I think if I remember
correctly, your from SD and those grapes probably have less malic
acid. The buttery smell has been pretty noticable about 1/2 - 3/4 way
thru primary. I also see that "sparkle" type of fermenting when
pressing which I associate with MLF. It's a different type of bubble
action. It's tough to discribe except that I know it's MLF still
going.

Bob

On Feb 26, 5:52*pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> Bob,
> Red wines that have gone through mlf usually contain 2 or 3 time as much
> diacetyl as wines that have not gone through mlf. So, the yeast can produce
> some diacetyl but mlf bacteria produce more. *I find that buttery smell
> difficult to detect during primary fermentation. *You must have a good
> smeller.
> Good luck with your winemaking.
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Lum,
>
> > I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
> > assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
> > that smell come from some other process during primary??
>
> > TIA
>
> > Bob
>
> >> "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>
> ....
> >> On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:
>
> >> > Joe ,
>
> >> > I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
> >> > way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
> >> > before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
> >> > that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
> >> > mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
> >> > MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.
>
> >> > Bob
>
> >> > On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> >> > > > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > Lum is much to modest:
>
> >> > > > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> >> > > > > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> >> > > > > Take Care,
> >> > > > > Steve
> >> > > > > Oregon
>
> >> > > > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> >> > > > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> >> > > > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while
> >> > > > > >the
> >> > > > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
> >> > > > > >knowing
> >> > > > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> >> > > > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain
> >> > > > > >of
> >> > > > > >the
> >> > > > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
> >> > > > > >soon
> >> > > > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done
> >> > > > > >this
> >> > > > > >two
> >> > > > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing
> >> > > > > >thus
> >> > > > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> >> > > > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> >> > > > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
> >> > > > > > said:
>
> >> > > > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
> >> > > > > >> MLF?
> >> > > > > >> at start?
> >> > > > > >> -or-
> >> > > > > >> 50% through?
> >> > > > > >> 75% through?
> >> > > > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > > > Nice read, Thanks Steve.
>
> >> > > > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutMLcultures I
> >> > > > read this:
>
> >> > > > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete
> >> > > > with
> >> > > > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> >> > > > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The
> >> > > > best
> >> > > > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> >> > > > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking,
> >> > > > I
> >> > > > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > to make good wine.
>
> >> > > Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
> >> > > of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
> >> > > used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
> >> > > if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
> >> > > lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
> >> > > opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
> >> > > pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
> >> > > sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>
> >> > > As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
> >> > > happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
> >> > > I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
> >> > > sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
> >> > > at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
> >> > > never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
> >> > > the latter.
>
> >> > > Joe
>
> >> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \
> >>
> >> Can you describe the odor?
>
> >> I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.

I think you are right Bob.
I am in San Diego and local red grapes often contain less than 2 grams per
litter of malic acid. So, mlf doesn't last very long or produce very much
diacetyl.
I know what you mean about mlf bubbles. They are different, but difficult
to describe.
Lum


> wrote in message
...
The red wines I ferment are eastern reds. They have much more Malic
acid so I think the smell is stronger. I think if I remember
correctly, your from SD and those grapes probably have less malic
acid. The buttery smell has been pretty noticable about 1/2 - 3/4 way
thru primary. I also see that "sparkle" type of fermenting when
pressing which I associate with MLF. It's a different type of bubble
action. It's tough to discribe except that I know it's MLF still
going.

Bob

On Feb 26, 5:52 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> Bob,
> Red wines that have gone through mlf usually contain 2 or 3 time as much
> diacetyl as wines that have not gone through mlf. So, the yeast can
> produce
> some diacetyl but mlf bacteria produce more. I find that buttery smell
> difficult to detect during primary fermentation. You must have a good
> smeller.
> Good luck with your winemaking.
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Lum,
>
> > I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
> > assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
> > that smell come from some other process during primary??
>
> > TIA
>
> > Bob
>
> >> "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> >> On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:
>
> >> > Joe ,
>
> >> > I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
> >> > way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
> >> > before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of
> >> > yeast
> >> > that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
> >> > mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
> >> > MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.
>
> >> > Bob
>
> >> > On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> >> > > > On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > Lum is much to modest:
>
> >> > > > >http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
> >> > > > > Look for: ferment sugar
>
> >> > > > > Take Care,
> >> > > > > Steve
> >> > > > > Oregon
>
> >> > > > > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >This is the question that will likely generate some debate.
>
> >> > > > > >I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
> >> > > > > >presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start
> >> > > > > >while
> >> > > > > >the
> >> > > > > >alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
> >> > > > > >knowing
> >> > > > > >far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
> >> > > > > >undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain
> >> > > > > >of
> >> > > > > >the
> >> > > > > >biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in
> >> > > > > >primary -
> >> > > > > >soon
> >> > > > > >before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done
> >> > > > > >this
> >> > > > > >two
> >> > > > > >years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing
> >> > > > > >thus
> >> > > > > >until better information convinces me otherwise.
>
> >> > > > > >How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?
>
> >> > > > > >On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
> >> > > > > > said:
>
> >> > > > > >> When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate
> >> > > > > >> for
> >> > > > > >> MLF?
> >> > > > > >> at start?
> >> > > > > >> -or-
> >> > > > > >> 50% through?
> >> > > > > >> 75% through?
> >> > > > > >> 90% through?- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > > > Nice read, Thanks Steve.
>
> >> > > > In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutMLcultures I
> >> > > > read this:
>
> >> > > > "Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete
> >> > > > with
> >> > > > the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
> >> > > > causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The
> >> > > > best
> >> > > > time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."
>
> >> > > > With so many variables and so many opinions involved in
> >> > > > winemaking,
> >> > > > I
> >> > > > am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars
> >> > > > on
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > to make good wine.
>
> >> > > Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because
> >> > > most
> >> > > of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can
> >> > > be
> >> > > used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
> >> > > if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
> >> > > lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
> >> > > opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the
> >> > > TA/
> >> > > pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up;
> >> > > the
> >> > > sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.
>
> >> > > As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
> >> > > happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe,
> >> > > but
> >> > > I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
> >> > > sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it
> >> > > have
> >> > > at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery.
> >> > > I
> >> > > never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so
> >> > > suspect
> >> > > the latter.
>
> >> > > Joe
>
> >> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \
> >>
> >> Can you describe the odor?
>
> >> I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage"
> >> smell.