Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Old 11-12-2004, 05:25 AM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default malolactic fermentation

I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as close
to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I am
worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And if
there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would innoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?

TIA

Vic



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Old 11-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And if
there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid in
apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat you
could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start with
vinifera fruit.

Tom S


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And if
there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid in
apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat you
could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start with
vinifera fruit.

Tom S


  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 11:24 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Before worrying about malic, make sure your juice has enough acid to
begin with. Much cider is made without real cider apples. The result is
you need to add tartaric. I have a heavy duty juicer, which I use it
when making apple wine. I usually use granny smith apples and blend
with a white wine. Depending on the blend, you can have plenty of
malic. I enjoy it myself, and do not introduce a malactic culture.
Tim
Tom S wrote:
"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste

as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic,

but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do

their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite?

And if
there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad

consequences if
malolactic didn't take?



  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 11:24 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Before worrying about malic, make sure your juice has enough acid to
begin with. Much cider is made without real cider apples. The result is
you need to add tartaric. I have a heavy duty juicer, which I use it
when making apple wine. I usually use granny smith apples and blend
with a white wine. Depending on the blend, you can have plenty of
malic. I enjoy it myself, and do not introduce a malactic culture.
Tim
Tom S wrote:
"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste

as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic,

but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do

their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite?

And if
there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad

consequences if
malolactic didn't take?





  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 02:42 PM
Paul E. Lehmann
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tom S wrote:


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
you
could slip it under a door. :^/


Tom, you are absolutely correct. I once used a yeast in an apple wine that
was suppose to be good at using up malic acid. I was concerned that the
wine made from all tart apple juice would be too acidic. The end result
was an extremely flat wine. The yeast did its job but the product was not
good.
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 02:42 PM
Paul E. Lehmann
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tom S wrote:


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
you
could slip it under a door. :^/


Tom, you are absolutely correct. I once used a yeast in an apple wine that
was suppose to be good at using up malic acid. I was concerned that the
wine made from all tart apple juice would be too acidic. The end result
was an extremely flat wine. The yeast did its job but the product was not
good.
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 03:56 PM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default




Thanks for the advice. Couldn't I just add extra tartaric after malolactic
if it tasted flat? Since many of the best apple ciders contain residual
sugar to bring out the apples, I made the vinifera comment to distinguish
what I am making (dry, full-bodied apple wine) from apple cider. In my
opinion, the best country wines mimic the styles of vinifera wines--that's
why I like Jack's recipes--the wines don't taste like the starting fruit.

It's pretty hard to grow vinifera vines here in Georgia (or impossible),
but I can drive an hour into the mountains and get a bushel of apples for
about $5. That's why, if I could get something even remotely resembling the
buttery flavor of a chardonnay, I would be a pretty happy guy. In addition,
malolactic takes away the "fruity" taste in wines, so I thought that might
move my wine even one more step away from cider and one more toward wine.

Vic

"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...

"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
you could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
with vinifera fruit.

Tom S



  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 03:56 PM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default




Thanks for the advice. Couldn't I just add extra tartaric after malolactic
if it tasted flat? Since many of the best apple ciders contain residual
sugar to bring out the apples, I made the vinifera comment to distinguish
what I am making (dry, full-bodied apple wine) from apple cider. In my
opinion, the best country wines mimic the styles of vinifera wines--that's
why I like Jack's recipes--the wines don't taste like the starting fruit.

It's pretty hard to grow vinifera vines here in Georgia (or impossible),
but I can drive an hour into the mountains and get a bushel of apples for
about $5. That's why, if I could get something even remotely resembling the
buttery flavor of a chardonnay, I would be a pretty happy guy. In addition,
malolactic takes away the "fruity" taste in wines, so I thought that might
move my wine even one more step away from cider and one more toward wine.

Vic

"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...

"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
you could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
with vinifera fruit.

Tom S



  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 05:50 PM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default

By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...

"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
you could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
with vinifera fruit.

Tom S





  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 05:50 PM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default

By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...

"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
. ..
I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?


I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
you could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
with vinifera fruit.

Tom S



  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 06:07 PM
Lum
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
t...
By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought

I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


Vic,
Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
winemaking.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA



  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 06:07 PM
Lum
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
t...
By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought

I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


Vic,
Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
winemaking.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA



  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 06:38 PM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lum,

I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness winemakers
don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.

I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.

SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
flatness MLF brings?

Thanks for bearing with me.

Vic


"Lum" wrote in message
...

"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
t...
By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is
much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought

I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


Vic,
Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
winemaking.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA





  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-12-2004, 06:38 PM
Vic Whirlwind
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lum,

I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness winemakers
don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.

I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.

SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
flatness MLF brings?

Thanks for bearing with me.

Vic


"Lum" wrote in message
...

"Vic Whirlwind" wrote in message
t...
By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is
much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought

I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


Vic,
Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
winemaking.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA







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