"st.helier" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> "Michael Scarpitti" wrote .....
>>>
>>> Name a popular varietal that doesn't do well anywhere else but one
>>> region.
>>
>> Nebbiolo, for one.
>>
>
> Nope - wrong again Michael - there is some wonderful Nebbiolo produced
> in Australia.


You have to put me also on the straight and narrow, miludd - what are the
producers and in what region? I am all agog (or, perhps you´re all arvoo in
Oz? Will find out in September).

Cheers

Nils Gsutaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

st.helier wrote:
> "Michael Scarpitti" wrote .....
> >>
> >> Name a popular varietal that doesn't do well anywhere else but one
> >> region.
> >
> > Nebbiolo, for one.
> >
>
> Nope - wrong again Michael - there is some wonderful Nebbiolo produced
> in Australia.

Oh, really? Send me a bottle and I'll try it. I'm sure there are
wonderful NZ Nero d'Avolas, too.....

>
> --
>
> st.helier

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote .....

>> Nope - wrong again Michael - there is some wonderful
>> Nebbiolo produced in Australia.
>
> Oh, really? Send me a bottle and I'll try it. I'm sure there are
> wonderful NZ Nero d'Avolas, too.....
>


Oh spare my days Michael

(1) You live in Ohio: i.e. importation controlled by State = if he ever
ventured into Ohio, his Lordship could be arrested and shipped to Guantanamo
Bay for having imported the alcohol on his breath!!!!!
(2) You drink ONLY Italian wine - you would not drink Australian wine,
no matter how good. For goodness sake, if you chose to be narrow minder,
remain so, less we mere antipodeans should get confused.

--

st.helier

st.helier wrote:
> "Michael Scarpitti" wrote .....
>
> >> Nope - wrong again Michael - there is some wonderful
> >> Nebbiolo produced in Australia.
> >
> > Oh, really? Send me a bottle and I'll try it. I'm sure there are
> > wonderful NZ Nero d'Avolas, too.....
>
>
> Oh spare my days Michael
>
> (1) You live in Ohio: i.e. importation controlled by State = if he ever
> ventured into Ohio, his Lordship could be arrested and shipped to Guantanamo
> Bay for having imported the alcohol on his breath!!!!!
> (2) You drink ONLY Italian wine - you would not drink Australian wine,
> no matter how good. For goodness sake, if you chose to be narrow minder,
> remain so, less we mere antipodeans should get confused.

I would try it if given the chance, just to see what it was like.

No Michael, you only drink Italian wines and that is that.

We cannot have you widening your horizons in the name of curiosity.

The Sicilian industry will be shaking in their boots at the thought of such
heresy.

--

st.helier

"UC" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> miles wrote:
>> UC wrote:
>> > miles wrote:
>> >> UC wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Tuscany is the home of Sngiovese, and all wines made from that grape
>> >>> would have to use Tuscan wines as the reference point.
>> >> The issue is not where a particular varietal originated. My point is
>> >> that there are numerous regions that can produce a great wine from a
>> >> given grape. Not just one.
>> >
>> > Not the point.
>>
>> I realize you are saying all sangiovese must be compared to those
>> produced in Tuscany. Why? Just because thats where it originated
>> doesn't mean its the standard for comparison.
>
> Yes, it does.
>
>> It doesn't mean Tuscan
>> wines are better or worse. I've never seen typical blind tasting scores
>> that state a wines rating as compared to Tuscan wines. The ratings
>> stand on their own for each wine and not that its above or below Tuscan
>> wines.
>
> Sangiovese originated in Tuscany or central Italy hundreds of years
> ago. It has adapted itself to that area. It is the quintessential
> Italian grape. To suggest that any wine made from Sangiovese grown
> elsewhere should not use Chianti, Brunello, or Vino Nobile as a
> reference is absurd on its face.

Do you have DNA testing to PROOVE that Sangiovese ORIGINATED in Tuscany or
Central Italy??

BTW, I believe the Species Vinifera originated somewhere around the Caspian
and Black Sea area. By your logic, this would be the MOST ideal area for
wines made from such varieties as Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc, Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, and yes even Sangiovese. Do you see my point??
Tell it to the French, Australians, Chileans, Argentinians, Australians etc.
Your logic is flawed.

"UC" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mike Tommasi wrote:
>> miles wrote:
>> > UC wrote:
>> >
>> >> miles wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> UC wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Tuscany is the home of Sngiovese, and all wines made from that grape
>> >>>> would have to use Tuscan wines as the reference point.
>> >>>
>> >>> The issue is not where a particular varietal originated. My point is
>> >>> that there are numerous regions that can produce a great wine from a
>> >>> given grape. Not just one.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Not the point.
>> >
>> >
>> > I realize you are saying all sangiovese must be compared to those
>> > produced in Tuscany. Why? Just because thats where it originated
>> > doesn't mean its the standard for comparison. It doesn't mean Tuscan
>> > wines are better or worse.
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree. What's more, in good wine the varietal is not nearly as
>> important as the terroir.
>>
>> Comparing Condrieu from Condrieu and from other parts of the world, one
>> finds similarities at the most very basic level, so the comparison is
>> rather pointless.
>>
>> Same with Sangiovese, you can get good Sangio outside Tuscany, it is
>> totally different, and demanding a comparison to a REFERENCE Sangio
>> (allegedly tuscan) just shows how crude one's understanding of wine is.
>>
>> Grenache from Sardinia is quite interesting, so is Grenache from
>> Chateauneuf du Pape. Yes they have something in common, but by UC's
>> ravings one should now go pay a visit to Mariano Murru of Argiolas and
>> give him 3 month's written notice to get his wines in line with those of
>> Chateau Rayas, or else the committee will do something to him...
>>
>>
>
> Almost all grapes in wide use were first cultivated in a small area,
> then transported to other areas. In cases where the tranport took place
> centuries ago, the grapes have already diverged from the parent stock.
> They are no longer the same grapes. Grapes taken from Greece 3000 years
> ago to Italy have evolved. If Sangiovese's origins are Greek, that is
> irrelevant. We don't have to use any Greek wine as a reference.
> Likewise with Cannonou: it is no longer Grenache.
>
> Now, we are talking about taking 20th c Tusacn Sangiovese stocks and
> transpanting them somewhere else. Wines made from those stocks would
> have to be compared to the wines from the home territory, because the
> grapes have not had time to evolve.

Evolution does NOT mean better tasting. Evolution strives to make sure the
species is successful and can perpetuate itself. Evolution doesn't give a
damn about how the product tastes to humans. In fact, evolution MIGHT mean
that grapes develop a certain taste or characterictics that discourages
domestication if that characteristic helps with the reproduction and spread
of the species. Biology 101, I believe. With more vineyards planting
Sangioves, expect Tuscan Sangioves to PERHAPS take a back seat. You picked
the standard; you should be prepared for the results.

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:

> Did not. Barolo and Barbaresco ARE in Piemonte. Sure thing, went there this
> summer, wonderful experience, highly recommended. There are other places in
> Piemonte that produce Nebiolo, but Barolo is tops, with Barbaresco a close
> second, and they are c 30 km apart (20 miles to the anglometrically
> challenged).

Ahh, didn't know that. Thanks!

UC wrote:

> I certainly do not. I said Tuscan Sangiovese is the REFERENCE. That is
> where the grape originated. You may find some place on the planet that
> is 'better' but that is irrelevant. There is more to it than that.

Sorry, I do not use Tuscan as a reference when tasting Sangiovese. It
makes no difference to me where a varietal originated. I only care what
I am tasting and rate it on its own merits or lack of and not as
compared to Tuscan wines.

UC wrote:

> Now, we are talking about taking 20th c Tusacn Sangiovese stocks and
> transpanting them somewhere else. Wines made from those stocks would
> have to be compared to the wines from the home territory, because the
> grapes have not had time to evolve.

What exactly is the purpose of such a comparison that you demand must
take place? So I taste a Sangiovese made elsewhere. Why do I need to
say its this or that as compared to some Tuscan wine? Sorry, I just do
not base my judgment on a particular wine based on any other. Each
stands on its own.

UC wrote:

> That's what I'm saying, Mike! Sangiovese from somewhere else is not
> going to be like Brunello, Vino Nobile, or Chianti!

Probably true. The wines made elsewhere could be much better!

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
> > UC wrote:
>> >> miles wrote:
>>> >>> UC wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Of course. Some grape varieties 'travel' well; others don't.
By this I
>>>> >>>> mean that they will not do well outside their home range.
>>> >>> Name a popular varietal that doesn't do well anywhere else but one
>>> >>> region.
>> >>
>> >> Nebbiolo, for one.
> >

> > ... However, Argentina out produces Italy

Really? I just checked with Oz Clark and according to that the planted area
in Argentina is a very paltry piece of land compared even to Lombardia
(Valtellina), not to mention Piemonte. Yuo have a source for that?

My info comes from WinePros. Look again at the myth about Nebbiolo and
Piedmont. Only about 3% of the wines produced in Piedmont is Nebbiolo.
Even Dolcetto is at least double that of Nebbiolo. Barbara is many
many times the production of Nebbiolo in Piedmont. Even though the
region is well known its production levels are small.

st.helier wrote:
>
> (1) You live in Ohio: i.e. importation controlled by State = if he ever
> ventured into Ohio, his Lordship could be arrested and shipped to Guantanamo
> Bay for having imported the alcohol on his breath!!!!!

Laws have recently changed in the USA. We can now buy and transport
wines from state to state without having to go through a distributor as
was the case. Even without the new laws I could purchase wines from
overseas and pay the duties and tarrifs as they apply. Generally in
small quantities such fees are almost always ignored anyways.

miles > wrote in news:KztEg.969$rT5.458@fed1read01:

> st.helier wrote:
>>
>> (1) You live in Ohio: i.e. importation controlled by State = if he
>> ever ventured into Ohio, his Lordship could be arrested and shipped
>> to Guantanamo Bay for having imported the alcohol on his breath!!!!!
>
> Laws have recently changed in the USA. We can now buy and transport
> wines from state to state without having to go through a distributor
> as was the case. Even without the new laws I could purchase wines
> from overseas and pay the duties and tarrifs as they apply. Generally
> in small quantities such fees are almost always ignored anyways.

maybe where you live, but until recently it was a felony in my state
(Florida)

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Joseph Coulter wrote:

> maybe where you live, but until recently it was a felony in my state
> (Florida)

The laws have changed just the past year or so. The supreme court made
a ruling in a case in Michigan. I believe they ruled the state can not
have different rules for in state wineries vs. out of state as far as
distribution goes. Distribution laws must be the same for in state and
out of state wineries. Michigan had laws that heavily favored in state
wineries. The result of the ruling pretty much set the course to allow
wineries to direct ship to individuals. While the ruling doesn't
directly apply to other states it forces states to change their own
laws. Florida can no longer go after wineries that direct ship to FL
residents is my understanding.

miles wrote:

> Really? I just checked with Oz Clark and according to that the planted area
> in Argentina is a very paltry piece of land compared even to Lombardia
> (Valtellina), not to mention Piemonte. Yuo have a source for that?
>
> My info comes from WinePros. Look again at the myth about Nebbiolo and
> Piedmont. Only about 3% of the wines produced in Piedmont is Nebbiolo.
> Even Dolcetto is at least double that of Nebbiolo. Barbara is many
> many times the production of Nebbiolo in Piedmont. Even though the
> region is well known its production levels are small.

Miles,
That is understood in light of the difficulty in making good
Nebbiolo. Even in Piemonte, most of the land is just not suited for
growing (quality) Nebbiolo. In fact, even within Barolo there are
favored plots (most notably in the Langhe) which is why those same
producers make Barbera D'Asti and Dolcetto D'Alba. And while I haven't
had any Oz Nebbiolos, I can attest to the fact that none of the
Californian Nebbiolos did anything for me. They tasted anonymous and
uninteresting, a bad combination.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:

>I can attest to the fact that none of the
> Californian Nebbiolos did anything for me. They tasted anonymous and
> uninteresting, a bad combination.

Could be just as much the winemakers as the region. How old are the
wines in California vs. Piedmont?

A few months ago I spent a couple weeks wine tasting several regions
around California. I visited about 50 wineries. Out of that I found
only 5 wineries that had wines I found truly great. The rest were
uninteresting. The winemaker or other factors had more to do with
whether I liked the wine than the region since the region was not the
difference between them. I'm not trying to say that region doesn't play
a huge role. It's just that I tend to think the winemaker plays an even
bigger role. Two winemakers both make wine from the exact same
vineyard. One tastes like crap, the other is incredible. Happens all
too often.

"miles" > skrev i meddelandet
news:avtEg.968$rT5.238@fed1read01...
> Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
> > > UC wrote:
> >> >> miles wrote:
> >>> >>> UC wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>>> >>>> Of course. Some grape varieties 'travel' well; others don't.
> By this I
> >>>> >>>> mean that they will not do well outside their home range.
> >>> >>> Name a popular varietal that doesn't do well anywhere else but one
> >>> >>> region.
> >> >>
> >> >> Nebbiolo, for one.
> > >
>
> > > ... However, Argentina out produces Italy
>
> Really? I just checked with Oz Clark and according to that the planted
> area
> in Argentina is a very paltry piece of land compared even to Lombardia
> (Valtellina), not to mention Piemonte. Yuo have a source for that?
>
> My info comes from WinePros. Look again at the myth about Nebbiolo and
> Piedmont. Only about 3% of the wines produced in Piedmont is Nebbiolo.
> Even Dolcetto is at least double that of Nebbiolo. Barbara is many many
> times the production of Nebbiolo in Piedmont. Even though the region is
> well known its production levels are small.

Mile,
It is no myth - nebbiolo is a small variety even in Piemonte, with small
yields, high overhead (cellaring costs), and consequently expensive. I do
not think anybody has claimed otherwise.
Still, my source claims a planted area of 2000+ hectares in Piemonte, and
less than 100 in Argentina.
The Barberas are coming into their own, these days, at prices you can afford
(don't get me wrong - I buy Barolo too, it's just that I cannot afford it).

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"st.helier" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> No Michael, you only drink Italian wines and that is that.
>
> We cannot have you widening your horizons in the name of curiosity.
>
> The Sicilian industry will be shaking in their boots at the thought of
> such heresy.


We couldn´t have that - a new eruption of Etna would no doubt be the
result, with earth quakes, tsunamis, etc. however, if you don't want to tell
young Michael, couldn't you at least tell ME? _I_ certainly drink other
wines than Sicilian! <trying to curry favor> I am eeven partial to NZ SauvBl
and PN.

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" wrote .....
>
> We couldn´t have that - a new eruption of Etna would no doubt be
> the result, with earth quakes, tsunamis, etc.

Not to mention Mafia reprisals!!

(Damn - I mentioned them!!!)



> however, if you don't want to tell young Michael, couldn't you at least
> tell ME? _I_ certainly drink other wines than Sicilian! <trying to curry
> favor> I am even partial to NZ SauvBl and PN.
>
> Cheers

Hi Nils

Here is a short list I found - to which I would add Primo Estate "Joseph"
Nebbiolo from South Australia.

http://www.winediva.com.au/wineries/...oduct=Nebbiolo

Along with the Joseph I have been lucky enough (all Oz Nebbiolo is made in
tiny amounts at this time) to have been brought back from Australia (and
duly consumed) the Coronamento Nebbiolo 2002 from Pizzini in Victoria.

Both wines were very young, very varietal (floral, plum & tar) but
distinctly Australian.

Both were made by Australians of Italian extraction - who brought their love
of this variety (and probably vine cuttings!) with them from Italy.

Where to get them? To use a popular Australianism "Buggered if I know,
Mate!" - obviously apart from the winery.

--

st.helier

"st.helier" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" wrote .....
>>

> Where to get them? To use a popular Australianism "Buggered if I know,
> Mate!" - obviously apart from the winery.

No worries - she'll be right

Nils Gustaf

"miles" > skrev i meddelandet
news:sdtEg.964$rT5.671@fed1read01...

> Sorry, I do not use Tuscan as a reference when tasting Sangiovese. It
> makes no difference to me where a varietal originated. I only care what I
> am tasting and rate it on its own merits or lack of and not as compared to
> Tuscan wines.

One variety that surely has come up in the world by moving away from home
would be gewurztraminer. I find the products of Termeno (Tramin) distinctly
uninteresting (based on a one-day excursion - I'm a bloody specialist,
then). Definitely inferior, as a group, to Alsace gwz.

Same Pinot gris, I shouldn't be doubting only I never had a PG from
Bourgogne. Very little production and goes into Bourg Grand Ordinaire -"not
grand, definitely ordinary".

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

Dionysus wrote:
> "UC" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > miles wrote:
> >> UC wrote:
> >> > miles wrote:
> >> >> UC wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Tuscany is the home of Sngiovese, and all wines made from that grape
> >> >>> would have to use Tuscan wines as the reference point.
> >> >> The issue is not where a particular varietal originated. My point is
> >> >> that there are numerous regions that can produce a great wine from a
> >> >> given grape. Not just one.
> >> >
> >> > Not the point.
> >>
> >> I realize you are saying all sangiovese must be compared to those
> >> produced in Tuscany. Why? Just because thats where it originated
> >> doesn't mean its the standard for comparison.
> >
> > Yes, it does.
> >
> >> It doesn't mean Tuscan
> >> wines are better or worse. I've never seen typical blind tasting scores
> >> that state a wines rating as compared to Tuscan wines. The ratings
> >> stand on their own for each wine and not that its above or below Tuscan
> >> wines.
> >
> > Sangiovese originated in Tuscany or central Italy hundreds of years
> > ago. It has adapted itself to that area. It is the quintessential
> > Italian grape. To suggest that any wine made from Sangiovese grown
> > elsewhere should not use Chianti, Brunello, or Vino Nobile as a
> > reference is absurd on its face.
>
> Do you have DNA testing to PROOVE that Sangiovese ORIGINATED in Tuscany or
> Central Italy??

WTF? I don't have to prove it.

> BTW, I believe the Species Vinifera originated somewhere around the Caspian
> and Black Sea area. By your logic, this would be the MOST ideal area for
> wines made from such varieties as Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc, Cabernet
> Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, and yes even Sangiovese. Do you see my point??
> Tell it to the French, Australians, Chileans, Argentinians, Australians etc.
> Your logic is flawed.

I already discussed this, moron.

miles wrote:
> UC wrote:
>
> > I certainly do not. I said Tuscan Sangiovese is the REFERENCE. That is
> > where the grape originated. You may find some place on the planet that
> > is 'better' but that is irrelevant. There is more to it than that.
>
> Sorry, I do not use Tuscan as a reference when tasting Sangiovese. It
> makes no difference to me where a varietal originated. I only care what
> I am tasting and rate it on its own merits or lack of and not as
> compared to Tuscan wines.

Who gives a damn what you do or think?

miles wrote:
> UC wrote:
>
> > That's what I'm saying, Mike! Sangiovese from somewhere else is not
> > going to be like Brunello, Vino Nobile, or Chianti!
>
> Probably true. The wines made elsewhere could be much better!

Better? Better than what?

miles wrote:

> Could be just as much the winemakers as the region. How old are the
> wines in California vs. Piedmont?

Opps. I meant vines. Dang keyboard makes typos now and then.

UC wrote:

> WTF? I don't have to prove it.

Has DNA testing been done to prove it? It's a valid question.

For decades people said California's Zinfandel originated in Italy
(Primatovo). We now know from DNA testing this just isn't so. Hasn't
stopped Italy from attempting to use the Zinfandel name as it's own
borrowing on the popularity elsewhere.

UC wrote:
> miles wrote:
>> UC wrote:
>>
>>> I certainly do not. I said Tuscan Sangiovese is the REFERENCE. That is
>>> where the grape originated. You may find some place on the planet that
>>> is 'better' but that is irrelevant. There is more to it than that.
>> Sorry, I do not use Tuscan as a reference when tasting Sangiovese. It
>> makes no difference to me where a varietal originated. I only care what
>> I am tasting and rate it on its own merits or lack of and not as
>> compared to Tuscan wines.
>
> Who gives a damn what you do or think?

You seem to. You attempt to tell me and others that we must use Tuscan
as a reference. Reference for what purpose is unknown but you still
make that attempt. So yes, you do care.

Just when it appears that there might be some reasonable grey matter between
his ears..

Michael Scarpitti reverted to type by writing ....
>
> Who gives a damn what you do or think?
>

OK Michael! - be a good boy
Find a mirror
Look at yourself closely
Repeat these words
Over and over...

"Who gives a damn what you do or think?"
"Who gives a damn what you do or think?"
"Who gives a damn what you do or think?"
"Who gives a damn what you do or think?"

"miles" > skrev i meddelandet
news:1UEEg.986$rT5.783@fed1read01...
> UC wrote:
>
>> WTF? I don't have to prove it.
>
> Has DNA testing been done to prove it? It's a valid question.
>
> For decades people said California's Zinfandel originated in Italy
> (Primatovo). We now know from DNA testing this just isn't so. Hasn't
> stopped Italy from attempting to use the Zinfandel name as it's own
> borrowing on the popularity elsewhere.

You're ever so right, a few Italian producers actually tried pawning of
Zinfandel [1] ... food fro thought. I wonder if those plants were _real_
Zins, i e, imported from the US, or just the old Primitivo?
Too bad the actual 'mother plant' is virtually unpronouncable ...

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

[1] No New World producer would ever try something as dastardly as trying to
pawn of f their produce as, e g, Chablis, Port, or whatever ... [2]
[2] This is what I perceive as a joke. However I am Swedish, and as such,
well known to have no sense of humour whatsoever.
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

On 16 Aug 2006 06:05:03 -0700, "UC" >
wrote:

>
>miles wrote:
>> UC wrote:
>>
>> > I certainly do not. I said Tuscan Sangiovese is the REFERENCE. That is
>> > where the grape originated. You may find some place on the planet that
>> > is 'better' but that is irrelevant. There is more to it than that.
>>
>> Sorry, I do not use Tuscan as a reference when tasting Sangiovese. It
>> makes no difference to me where a varietal originated. I only care what
>> I am tasting and rate it on its own merits or lack of and not as
>> compared to Tuscan wines.
>
>Who gives a damn what you do or think?

ROFLMAO. Of all the people on this Ng to use that retort.

hooroo...

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:49:05 +1200, "st.helier"
> wrote:

>"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" wrote .....
>>
>> We couldn´t have that - a new eruption of Etna would no doubt be
>> the result, with earth quakes, tsunamis, etc.
>
>Not to mention Mafia reprisals!!
>
>(Damn - I mentioned them!!!)
>
>
>
>> however, if you don't want to tell young Michael, couldn't you at least
>> tell ME? _I_ certainly drink other wines than Sicilian! <trying to curry
>> favor> I am even partial to NZ SauvBl and PN.
>>
>> Cheers
>
>Hi Nils
>
>Here is a short list I found - to which I would add Primo Estate "Joseph"
>Nebbiolo from South Australia.
>
>http://www.winediva.com.au/wineries/...oduct=Nebbiolo
>
>Along with the Joseph I have been lucky enough (all Oz Nebbiolo is made in
>tiny amounts at this time) to have been brought back from Australia (and
>duly consumed) the Coronamento Nebbiolo 2002 from Pizzini in Victoria.
>
>Both wines were very young, very varietal (floral, plum & tar) but
>distinctly Australian.
>
>Both were made by Australians of Italian extraction - who brought their love
>of this variety (and probably vine cuttings!) with them from Italy.
>
>Where to get them? To use a popular Australianism "Buggered if I know,
>Mate!" - obviously apart from the winery.

The King Valley (Northern Victoria) m'lord has become a sanctuary of
those lovely Italian-Australian winemakers, and has a cult following
over here. Pizzini is one of the best. They are trialling some
grapes I had not heard of, with mixed results. We also have the
Riverina GI, again, dominated by Italian-Australian winemakers, who as
early as the 70's began making drinkable wines in unfashionable places
such as Mudgee, amongst the hue and cry of the traditionalists who
laughed at "irrigated" vines. These vines are now 30 years old and
producing some excellent vino.

hooroo...

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:

> [1] No New World producer would ever try something as dastardly as trying to
> pawn of f their produce as, e g, Chablis, Port, or whatever ... [2]
> [2] This is what I perceive as a joke. However I am Swedish, and as such,
> well known to have no sense of humour whatsoever.

Sure there are producers in the USA that borrow names. However, they
make no attempt to claim the name as their own. The wine is named after
the grape used. However, it is my understanding that in Italy some
wineries are wanting to use Primitovo grapes but produce a wine called
Zinfandel.

miles wrote:

> Sure there are producers in the USA that borrow names. However, they
> make no attempt to claim the name as their own. The wine is named after
> the grape used. However, it is my understanding that in Italy some
> wineries are wanting to use Primitovo grapes but produce a wine called
> Zinfandel.

Miles,
Carole Meredith's research showed that Zin and Primitivo are indeed
very, very closely related, enough so that they could be called two
clones of the same grape. However, it is also now recognized that Zin
is indistinguiable from an obscure Croatian grape known as Crljenak
kastelanski:

http://www.actahort.org/books/603/603_34.htm

Mark Lipton

miles > wrote in news:62OEg.1388$rT5.334@fed1read01:

> Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
>
>> [1] No New World producer would ever try something as dastardly as
>> trying to pawn of f their produce as, e g, Chablis, Port, or whatever
>> ... [2] [2] This is what I perceive as a joke. However I am Swedish,
>> and as such, well known to have no sense of humour whatsoever.
>
> Sure there are producers in the USA that borrow names. However, they
> make no attempt to claim the name as their own. The wine is named
> after the grape used. However, it is my understanding that in Italy
> some wineries are wanting to use Primitovo grapes but produce a wine
> called Zinfandel.
>

Yup they borrow names, but not the grapes. Chablis in CA was made from IIRC
Columbard grapes sweet and sticky and not the least bit of Chardonnay.
Hearty Burgundy from Gallo similarly never saw a pinot noir grape.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Mark Lipton wrote:

> Miles,
> Carole Meredith's research showed that Zin and Primitivo are indeed
> very, very closely related, enough so that they could be called two
> clones of the same grape. However, it is also now recognized that Zin
> is indistinguiable from an obscure Croatian grape known as Crljenak
> kastelanski:

The studies I read did show them very closely related but the Zin grape
did not come from Primitivo. So they both came from some other grape
such as Crljenak?

Joseph Coulter wrote:

> Yup they borrow names, but not the grapes. Chablis in CA was made from IIRC
> Columbard grapes sweet and sticky and not the least bit of Chardonnay.
> Hearty Burgundy from Gallo similarly never saw a pinot noir grape.

As I said, anything goes with the lower end wines in the USA. Chablis
is generally one of them. Jug wines have any and all names.

miles > wrote in news:gkPEg.1395$rT5.1193@fed1read01:

> Joseph Coulter wrote:
>
>> Yup they borrow names, but not the grapes. Chablis in CA was made
>> from IIRC Columbard grapes sweet and sticky and not the least bit of
>> Chardonnay. Hearty Burgundy from Gallo similarly never saw a pinot
>> noir grape.
>
> As I said, anything goes with the lower end wines in the USA. Chablis
> is generally one of them. Jug wines have any and all names.
>

Uhh, you said and I quote
"Sure there are producers in the USA that borrow names. However, they
make no attempt to claim the name as their own. The wine is named after
the grape used."

CA Chablis was named after a French region and had none of the varietal
in it.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Joseph Coulter wrote:

> CA Chablis was named after a French region and had none of the varietal
> in it.

As you point out, Chablis is a region, not a grape varietal so not sure
what your point is.

miles > wrote in news:TlQEg.1400$rT5.841@fed1read01:

> Joseph Coulter wrote:
>
>> CA Chablis was named after a French region and had none of the
varietal
>> in it.
>
> As you point out, Chablis is a region, not a grape varietal so not
sure
> what your point is.
>

if you had not snipped your material you would see that you had claimed
that
Sure there are producers in the USA that borrow names. However, they
make no attempt to claim the name as their own. The wine is named after
the grape used."

but that is not true the producers named the wines after the region not
the grape. I will not discuss this further as you are obviously not
trying to be consistent in your argument.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/