A convivial group gathered last night at Meritage in Scarsdale for a
Spanish-themed dinner. The restaurant did a fine job with the task of a
tapas dinner, with waaaaay too much food circulating. More than a dozen
tapas/canape/appetizers circulated, some of my favorites were the
Serrano ham, the grilled calamari, the endive with marinated white
anchovies (a wine killer, but worth a detour to water), and gambas
ajillo (shrimp). My stuffed pork chop was good, I told my wife Meritage
is on the list of places to take her.

A couple of whites to start the evening:

2004 Naia Des (Rueda, I think)
Barrel-fermented Verdejo. Rich tropical fruit, wood in the background,
good acidity. Refreshing and fun.

2004 Conreria d'Scala Dei "Les Brugueres" (Priorat)
Nose of musk and melons, sweet round tropical fruit on palate. Reminds
me a bit of a decent white CdP, but I'm not a huge fan of white
Rhones. B/B-

1989 Marqués de Murrieta "Ygay" Rioja Gran Reserva Especial
I think my last bottle of this. I was a little hesitant about bringing
this- I liked the first release of this, but some very VA-dominated
bottles appeared en masse in NYC a few years ago- I wasn't sure if this
was from first batch or my repurchase. Some bottle funk, and some
noticable VA. But the VA stays within my tolerance level, just a very
lifted nose. Sweet red cherry and plum fruit with a tiny dash of spice
on the palate, good acidty. Pulls itself together nicely at end when
the volatile acidity has faded. B+

2002 Artadi Pagos Viejos -oaky, oaky, oaky, and disjointed. Short
finish. C/C+

1995 Murua Rioja Gran Reserva
Ripe red plums, mature, fading on finish. B

1995 Remelluri Rioja (from magnum)
Funky nose, a little bretty in my opinion. Raspberry fruit and oak, a
tad disjointed. Someone says it opens up, but not into anything I
really care for. Everyone else likes better than I. C+

1999 Artadi Rioja Pagos Viejos
Much better than the '02. Oak has integratred nicely. I think this is
as good as it's going to get. Not a big fan of modern Rioja in general,
but this is a very good example. B/B+

2001 Finca La Estacada "Black Label"
light sweet fruit, medium bodied but with some green tacky tannins. B-

1995 Valduero Primium Reserva (Ribera del Duero)
Sweet fruit but a little empty. B-/B

2001 Muga Selecton Especial Reserva
Needs some time for oak to integrate, but good fruit base. B/B+

1998 Numanthia
Oak sticking out a little, but nice raspberry fruit underneath. A
little chocolate and coffee. Not my favorite style, but well done. B+/B

2001 Remirez de Ganuza Rioja
Obviously modern, but extremely well-done. Integrated oak, smooth,
ripe. B+

2001 Clos de L'Obac
Beefy, rich, nice wine. A-

2002 Finca Sandoval
A little closed down compared to a year or two ago. Sweet rich Syrah.
B+

2001 Molino Real (Dessert)
My palate was shot, but I quite enjoyed this. B+

NV Masia Serra Ino
My palate was shot, but I didn't enjoy this. C+

1990 Quinta do Vesuvio
Sweet, forward. A little simple,but enjoyable. B/B+

1992 Quinta do Vesuvio VP
More evolved, with a lot of raisiny/toffee notes. B+

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

DaleW wrote:
> A convivial group gathered last night at Meritage in Scarsdale for a
> Spanish-themed dinner. The restaurant did a fine job with the task of a
> tapas dinner, with waaaaay too much food circulating. More than a dozen
> tapas/canape/appetizers circulated, some of my favorites were the
> Serrano ham, the grilled calamari, the endive with marinated white
> anchovies (a wine killer, but worth a detour to water), and gambas
> ajillo (shrimp). My stuffed pork chop was good, I told my wife Meritage
> is on the list of places to take her.

Sounds like good food. Cubed serrano ham and gambas ajillo are two of
my favorite tapas, along with a bowl of marcona almonds in olive oil.
yumm.... Hard to stay away from sherry when eating them, though,
especially with the direction that Spanish red wines have taken in
recent years.



> 1995 Remelluri Rioja (from magnum)
> Funky nose, a little bretty in my opinion. Raspberry fruit and oak, a
> tad disjointed. Someone says it opens up, but not into anything I
> really care for. Everyone else likes better than I. C+

Interesting. I have the '94 and '96 Remelluris. I'm not encouraged by
your experience with the '95.

>
> 1999 Artadi Rioja Pagos Viejos
> Much better than the '02. Oak has integratred nicely. I think this is
> as good as it's going to get. Not a big fan of modern Rioja in general,
> but this is a very good example. B/B+

And that leads to my question: who makes non-modern Rioja these days?
Who are the remaining traditionalists?

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:
>
> And that leads to my question: who makes non-modern Rioja these days?
> Who are the remaining traditionalists?
>
>
Lopez y Heredia, Monte Real, & CVNE are the first to spring to mind.
Some others are kind of mixed- Muga's Prado Enea seems pretty
traditional, while the Torres and Selection Especial are more modern.
I'm not really Rioja-centric, maybe someone more knowledgable can chime
in (or you could ask Manuel at WT, be prepared for a rant).

Mark Lipton wrote:
> DaleW wrote:
>
>>A convivial group gathered last night at Meritage in Scarsdale for a
>>Spanish-themed dinner. The restaurant did a fine job with the task of a
>>tapas dinner, with waaaaay too much food circulating. More than a dozen
>>tapas/canape/appetizers circulated, some of my favorites were the
>>Serrano ham, the grilled calamari, the endive with marinated white
>>anchovies (a wine killer, but worth a detour to water), and gambas
>>ajillo (shrimp). My stuffed pork chop was good, I told my wife Meritage
>>is on the list of places to take her.
>
>
> Sounds like good food. Cubed serrano ham and gambas ajillo are two of
> my favorite tapas, along with a bowl of marcona almonds in olive oil.
> yumm.... Hard to stay away from sherry when eating them, though,
> especially with the direction that Spanish red wines have taken in
> recent years.

We went to Ibiza in New Haven last night - Jenny really likes it, and I
was willing to try it again. Food confirmed my impression that it's
overrated (the pan tomaca was stale and bland, the ham flavourless [how do
you *do* that to decent ham??], the braised short ribs uninspired) but we
had a great time regardless with grandma babysitting at home and the two
of us snarking on the other diners. Great place for that. Anyway...
while overpriced at $8/glass, we both enjoyed the Bodegas Zabrin Garnacha
De Fuego Old Vines 2005*, and this appears to be only about $7 per bottle
retail so I may have to go find some. I do agree on sherry, though - we
ended with a (free sample) 1971 Pedro Ximenez, which was gloriously
raisin/fig. Yum; that plus the very decent chocolate dessert rescued the
culinary side of my evening .

We'll have to try to make it to Meritage.

*Odd (to me) in-mouth progression: soft beginning, tannins starting
somehow at the very back of the mouth and working forward. LOTS of spice,
almost chili-heat (aptly named), but enough fruit and not overpowering. A
solid B, much higher on QPR if bought at store.

We also sampled - the bar is great, with knowledgeable staff, and we
should go to that more often - the 2004 Marqués de Cáceres Rosado and the
2001 Mont Marcal, Brut cava, both of which were pleasant without being
memorable.

DaleW wrote:

> Lopez y Heredia, Monte Real, & CVNE are the first to spring to mind.
> Some others are kind of mixed- Muga's Prado Enea seems pretty
> traditional, while the Torres and Selection Especial are more modern.
> I'm not really Rioja-centric, maybe someone more knowledgable can chime
> in (or you could ask Manuel at WT, be prepared for a rant).
>

One need not ask him: LL volunteers his opinion that "Spanish wine is
dead" at periodic intervals, from which I've divined that his list
includes Lopez de Heredia and no one else (he's given up on CVNE most
recently). I just thought I'd get a more temperate view of the scene
from someone who's palate I know and trust.

Mark Lipton

> we both enjoyed the Bodegas Zabrin Garnacha De Fuego Old Vines 2005*...
>
> *Odd (to me) in-mouth progression: soft beginning, tannins starting somehow at the very back of the mouth and working forward. LOTS of spice, almost chili-heat (aptly named), but enough fruit and not overpowering. A solid B, much higher on QPR if bought at store.

I had a Lolonis Zin from 1997 which was also extremely peppery - it
overpowered everything except sushi with wasabi (with which it went
well). I don't remember much of the in-mouth progression, but I found
it so spicy (even at first) that it required a warning label.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"DaleW" > wrote in news:1152447039.838325.79360
@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

>
> Mark Lipton wrote:
>>
>> And that leads to my question: who makes non-modern Rioja these days?
>> Who are the remaining traditionalists?
>>
>>
> Lopez y Heredia, Monte Real, & CVNE are the first to spring to mind.
> Some others are kind of mixed- Muga's Prado Enea seems pretty
> traditional, while the Torres and Selection Especial are more modern.
> I'm not really Rioja-centric, maybe someone more knowledgable can chime
> in (or you could ask Manuel at WT, be prepared for a rant).
>

Not that I am knowledgeable at all, but anyway I will contribute with my
view on the traditionalists-modernists issue.

But first I have to say that I grew up with a bottle of traditional style
Rioja on every celebration at home. It was usually Imperial, Viña Ardanza
or 904. When I developed a real interest in wine, I discovered a full range
of wines out of the wet horse fur and old leather registers and I jumped
over the wines that we usually think are traditionalists.

A few hundred wines after that day I do not have things as clear as I had
them five years ago. To me, traditional-style Rioja means defective wine.
One in which there was a lack of hygiene in the winery, in which old (and
probably contaminated) barrels were used for years to "mature" the wine. In
Rioja, wineries had been making defective wine for so long that defects
became part of the Rioja tipicity.

But then, in the nineties a bunch of producers decided to change things
probably showing a better respect for the quality of the fruit. They
purchased land, cultivated it and made their own wine. This was not the
common practice in Rioja, a wine region where the property (and work) of
the land and the winemaking were separated for more than one century. In
fact, this separation has always been one of the weak points of the Rioja
production system, because the land owner and the winery usually had
different aims: the land owner, whose earning depends on production,
obviously works to obtain large crops (this means using higly productive
grape varieties and clons) while the winery is interested in production and
quality. A different way to work this was to pay different prices depending
on the potential alcohol of the grape, but this measure did not take into
account but the sugar maturation, and not the phenolic one, for example.

As you can infere, the arriving of modernists, willing to control the land
(some were land buyers, some were old time land owners that wanted to
become wineries) was great on a start but as soon as their wines were a
success, more and more land owners or old style wineries wanted their share
of the cake. And then we saw how every stablished winery in Rioja launched
a "vino de alta expresión". Long macerations, cold fermentations to get as
much colour as possible and highly toasted new french oak were the typical
characteristics of these wines.

Consequently, we tend to think that all modern wines of Rioja are overripe-
overextracted-overoaked wines. When they are not. In fact, some of the
wines of several modernists display a true Rioja style with time.
Obviously, we cannot expect that a modern wine released two years after the
vintage to display the character of a Rioja Gran Reserva, but if you lay
down bottles from Artadi, Roda, Remírez de Ganuza or Contino, you will
finally discover that they are truly great wines that resemble great Rioja
but do not have any of the defects so common in many traditional wines. For
example, I recently had a bottle of Artadi Pagos Viejos 1999 which was
astounding seven years after the vintage. In fact, I really prefer this
Pagos Viejos to any Gran Reserva from a 95% of Rioja traditionalists
wineries.

At the same time, long time established wineries such as Marqués de Cáceres
or CVNE have understood the importance of land owning or controlling the
quality of the viticultural work. And, today, the plain Reserva by Marqués
de Cáceres (a traditionalist ten years ago) is much better than fifteen
years ago (Marqués de Cáceres 1994 is great right now, as is 1995 and
1996). Same goes for CVNE, specially with Imperial (a wine that has
improved so much since the mid-nineties). They are not overextracted,
overripe or overoaked wines, but they have better fruit inside the bottle.
Contino or Finca Valpiedra (single vineyard wines of CVNE and Martínez
Bujanda) are now perfectly representative of Rioja wines with a Rioja
profile without the defects.

Then we have Muga, a winery that is not traditionalist or modernist. In
fact, it is very young (was founded in 1969). The only wine I really like
from their portfolio is Prado Enea, but I usually find it a bit thin for my
taste. As for Marqués de Riscal, I have not had a good bottle of Marqués de
Riscal in the last 5 years and I am not willing to continue expending my
money in the research. Last taste was for the outstanding 2001 vintage and
my tasting note reads: how is it possible to make such a bad wine in such a
good vintage?.

And then we have López de Heredia. To me, 95% of their wines show all the
defects I related in the first paragraph. They are usually thin, fruit is
usually dead, volatile acidity is high and they are commonly harshly acidic
also in mouth. I attended a tasting with one of the winery owners and
enjoyed their Bosconia Gran Reserva 1981, but I purchased another bottle
and we were not able to drink it during a lunch. Manuel Camblor loves their
wines and that is fine to me as long as he does not want me to like them
;-)

Bodejas Riojanas is also quite traditionalist with both Monte Real and Viña
Albina, but I do not have much experience with them. 1987 Monte Real Gran
Reserva was a deception one year ago and Viña Albina 1995 was nice but
showed some of the defects I related in the first paragraph.

As a resume, I'd say that those that want really "traditional" wines will
find the wines of López de Heredia appealing. Prado Enea is another choice,
perhaps a bit more mild.

Best,

S.

Thanks for the informed opinions, Santiago. I agree that some nostalgia
doesn't take into account the decrease in flawed wines (in Spain and
elsewhere).

I disagree with Manuel Camblor about many things, but I do actually
like Lopez y Heredia wines - at least the reds with 20+ years, and the
rosado (the whites I'm more up in the air about). And I tend to like
the Prado Enea a lot. But I also did find the '99 Artadi PV and the '01
Gemurez nice wines.

Santiago wrote:

<SNIP>

Thanks for weighing in on this question, Santiago. Frankly, I had asked
my question with the hope that I'd hear from you. The scenario you
mention is similar to what occurred in Bordeaux in the '70s and '80s:
many chai replaced their aged barrels and improved hygiene to make
cleaner wines, but some also adopted the practice of going to 100% new
oak and abandoning traditional winemaking practices. Of course, in the
'90s far more started adopting new and questionable practices (RO anyone?).

In regard to Rioja, my limited experience with traditional Rioja comes
from La Rioja Alta's 904 and Castillo Ygay from the '70s and '80s. I
can't say that I found them at all flawed, but I have a fairly high
tolerance for Brett (I like Beaucastel, after all). I can't say that I
recall much in the way of VA, but perhaps I've just forgotten. My
concern regarding the modernistas is that what I most appreciate in
Rioja Gran Reservas is their delicacy and perfume. Will these monster
tempranillos made today ever achieve that degree of grace? My
experience with Sierra Cantabria and San Vicente doesn't inspire much
confidence, but as you mention there are others whose wines probably
will develop well.

Mark Lipton

Don't know what I was doing while I typed that, should read 01 Remirez
de Ganuza

Mark Lipton > wrote in
:

>
> In regard to Rioja, my limited experience with traditional Rioja comes
> from La Rioja Alta's 904 and Castillo Ygay from the '70s and '80s. I
> can't say that I found them at all flawed, but I have a fairly high
> tolerance for Brett (I like Beaucastel, after all). I can't say that
> I recall much in the way of VA, but perhaps I've just forgotten. My
> concern regarding the modernistas is that what I most appreciate in
> Rioja Gran Reservas is their delicacy and perfume. Will these monster
> tempranillos made today ever achieve that degree of grace? My
> experience with Sierra Cantabria and San Vicente doesn't inspire much
> confidence, but as you mention there are others whose wines probably
> will develop well.
>

Mark,

To me, 904 is a flawed wine. And I do have two bottles of the 94 vintage
(a present). Regarding VA, not all the traditionalists display it (for
example, I do not think it is a problem with Prado Enea) but it is a
characteristic of the wines from López de Heredia.

And then you mention the wines from the Eguren Family (San Vicente and
Sierra Cantabria in Rioja, Numanthia and Termantia in Toro). Those were
the kind of wines I was thinking when writing about the abuses of
modernists. I still have to find one of their wines that is alive ten
years after the vintage. I did try a San Vicente 1994 and it was dead in
2002.

However, I usually like the Sierra Cantabria Colección Privada as a good
tempranillo that drinks beautifully on release. It does not last, but it
is very nice young, the same with San Vicente. To me, this is not bad
because they are good tempranillos that you can drink young while waiting
for other wines to tame the tannins a bit. Both are available in Spain at
20 euros which is not too expensive considering the prices of new wines
released every now and then, usually not as good drinking as the SC or
the SV and usually more expensive. The wines from Toro I do not like that
much. To me, they are overripe-overextracted-overoaked. Not worth my
money.

Best,

S.

Salut/Hi Santiago,

le/on 11 Jul 2006 15:56:48 +0200, tu disais/you said:-

>Mark Lipton > wrote in
:
>
>>
>> In regard to Rioja, my limited experience with traditional Rioja comes
>> from La Rioja Alta's 904 and Castillo Ygay from the '70s and '80s. I
>> can't say that I found them at all flawed, but I have a fairly high
>> tolerance for Brett (I like Beaucastel, after all).

>To me, 904 is a flawed wine. And I do have two bottles of the 94 vintage
>(a present). Regarding VA, not all the traditionalists display it (for
>example, I do not think it is a problem with Prado Enea) but it is a
>characteristic of the wines from López de Heredia.

Oh no!! I can't agree at all. I've been lucky enough to be drinking the wine
since about 1980 in the UK, and have always rated it as one of the most
exciting of Riojas. In fact I finished the last bottle of the 82s only a
couple of months ago. But then, what you, as a Spaniard might considfer to
be a flaw in a Rioja, might just be what I like in it.

Fascinating. How do you rate La Rioja Alta's Viña Alberdi?

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article . com>,
"DaleW" > wrote:

> Mark Lipton wrote:
> >
> > And that leads to my question: who makes non-modern Rioja these days?
> > Who are the remaining traditionalists?
> >
> >
> Lopez y Heredia, Monte Real, & CVNE are the first to spring to mind.
> Some others are kind of mixed- Muga's Prado Enea seems pretty
> traditional, while the Torres and Selection Especial are more modern.
> I'm not really Rioja-centric, maybe someone more knowledgable can chime
> in (or you could ask Manuel at WT, be prepared for a rant).

I concur on the CUNE. Still seems quite traditional in even the most
current bottling. Monte Real 2002 was a bit thin for my tastes. Haven't
had one since.

Ian Hoare > wrote in
:
>
> Oh no!! I can't agree at all. I've been lucky enough to be drinking
> the wine since about 1980 in the UK, and have always rated it as one
> of the most exciting of Riojas. In fact I finished the last bottle of
> the 82s only a couple of months ago. But then, what you, as a Spaniard
> might considfer to be a flaw in a Rioja, might just be what I like in
> it.

Well, you are right about loves and hates. What some people likes, other people hates.
>
> Fascinating. How do you rate La Rioja Alta's Viña Alberdi?

I do not remember having a bottle of Viña Alberdi in the latest years. My memory says that both Viña Alberdi and Viña Arana display more fruit and less
old american oak than Viña Ardanza and the Gran Reservas (904 and 890). Anyway, since they are not my cup of tea, I do not usually ask for them at
restaurants or purchase them at shops. The tastings I usually attend are, usually, more centered in new wines and less in classics.

Best,

S.