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Old 15-05-2015, 11:37 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default When wines go from being wine boutique wines to supermarket wines


What happens when a wine thats one of the good ones in a wine store, is suddenly sold in the biggest supermarket in your country? Does the producer sell his soul to the devil and go from hand harvest to machine harvest, over extract his grapes, and add more water and sugar to counter?

We had the case of Marq de Riscal .

I've seen other Rioja wines go the same route:

Bordon Reserva was in a wine store and still is, but the biggest supermarket in Denmark now sells it. Now, the wine store has crianza and gran reserva too, but the supermarket only has reserva. The price is almost the same (15E), except when the supermarket has sales where it is 5-8E! Wine experts in Denmark say that in supermarkets it is the sale price that is the correct value. I've had examples where that is true (woodbridge, nugan La Brutta), but also some where the normal high price is "just right" (comparing the wine to similar wines in wine stores and the price in the homeland) (e.g. Lamberti Amarone)

So far it is still the same wine as the wine store had and it is my favourite budget Rioja currently. but I guess I should keep an eye out over the next years if it declines rapidly.

Another example:

Campillo Rioja Crianza, Reserva, Gran reserva. The more luxury version of faustino (I do like faustino gran reserva). A wine store here had Crianza 2001, reserva 1998, gran reserva 1994 at prices 20E, 25E, 30E. And they were beautiful . next after LdH these were the best rioja available here. Even the crianza was better than faustino gran reserva. ( and in verticals within the same brand I normally like GR best then R and C - and not joven at all. fasutino I only like the GR).

The supermarket has a "reserva selecta (12E)" and a reserva 15E (sometimes on sale for 8E) of new vintages. Actually another wine store had the new vintages too, at around 20E.
These are not even close to the 199x version the first wine store had. I dont know if it is the lack of age - if they will transform magically in 10 years like the cornasses I like do - or if they simply changed production methods?

Lol, seems this pattern happens a lot with rioja, or I just keep an eye out for rioja more than other types of wine





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Old 16-05-2015, 09:47 AM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default When wines go from being wine boutique wines to supermarket wines

Michael Nielsen wrote in
:


What happens when a wine thats one of the good ones in a wine store,
is suddenly sold in the biggest supermarket in your country? Does the
producer sell his soul to the devil and go from hand harvest to
machine harvest, over extract his grapes, and add more water and sugar
to counter?


The producer probably has an amount to sell because a new harvest is
coming and they need the barrels, the bottles warehouse to be ready for
the new juice.

When you are a boutique winery, that's a problem. When you are a huge
winery, like Bodegas El Coto, and make like 20 million bottles per year,
it is a huge problem. So, if their upscale channels are not able to cope
with supply, they have to find less prestigious channels.

We had the case of Marq de Riscal .

I've seen other Rioja wines go the same route:

Bordon Reserva was in a wine store and still is, but the biggest
supermarket in Denmark now sells it. Now, the wine store has crianza
and gran reserva too, but the supermarket only has reserva. The price
is almost the same (15E), except when the supermarket has sales where
it is 5-8E! Wine experts in Denmark say that in supermarkets it is the
sale price that is the correct value. I've had examples where that is
true (woodbridge, nugan La Brutta), but also some where the normal
high price is "just right" (comparing the wine to similar wines in
wine stores and the price in the homeland) (e.g. Lamberti Amarone)



Bordon Crianza was a wine that was very typical at wine bars in Spain,
but quality has been going down for a couple of decades. I have not had
Reservas. I had one 1970 in January with the best provenance, and it was
very good if a tad bland.

So far it is still the same wine as the wine store had and it is my
favourite budget Rioja currently. but I guess I should keep an eye out
over the next years if it declines rapidly.

Another example:

Campillo Rioja Crianza, Reserva, Gran reserva. The more luxury
version of faustino (I do like faustino gran reserva). A wine store
here had Crianza 2001, reserva 1998, gran reserva 1994 at prices 20E,
25E, 30E. And they were beautiful . next after LdH these were the best
rioja available here. Even the crianza was better than faustino gran
reserva. ( and in verticals within the same brand I normally like GR
best then R and C - and not joven at all. fasutino I only like the
GR).


Faustino is now supermarket wine in Spain.
Campillo is a better wine, I agree completely. Also it is a different
style, more meaty, more concentrated.


Lol, seems this pattern happens a lot with rioja, or I just keep an
eye out for rioja more than other types of wine



The particularity of Rioja is the model of production. Wineries, and
specially big wineries, do not own the vineyards. THey have agreements
with hundreds of small growers and they purchase the grapes from them.
So they can be very big without the need to invest a lot of money in the
process. The fact that there is a huge atomization in the vineyard
holders make it very convenient for large wineries too, because there
was an unbalance of power between winery (large) and winegrower (small).

However, this very same reason is behind the problems that big wineries
from Rioja are going through: good winegrowers that knew they were
producing great grapes because of a good terroir or working better in
the vine started to make their own wines and therefore some of the
better grapes are not going anymore to the big wineries.

Who is surviving this effect? Wineries that own or control the
vineyards: López de Heredia, Viña Real. Probably Campillo is the wine
from the own vineyards of Faustino Group. Coto Real from Bodegas Coto
(their Coto Crianza is awful) is an excellent supermarket wine, priced
at 15 euro too, and according to their website is from their own
vineyards.

There are plenty of "young" winegrowers making a revolution in Rioja.
The problem is that they make smaller productions and therefore it will
be not easy to find in every spot, as was usually the case with large
wineries.



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Old 16-05-2015, 03:54 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default When wines go from being wine boutique wines to supermarket wines

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:47:19 AM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
Who is surviving this effect? Wineries that own or control the
vineyards: L�pez de Heredia, Vi�a Real. Probably Campillo is the wine
from the own vineyards of Faustino Group. Coto Real from Bodegas Coto
(their Coto Crianza is awful) is an excellent supermarket wine, priced
at 15 euro too, and according to their website is from their own
vineyards.


So the decline is not as it goes to supermarkets, but it already happened since the 70s?

How's Marqués de Cáceres viewed in Spain?

The G.R. is 33E here. Oh, the description actually states that its style is a fusion of rioja and bordeaux.



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Old 16-05-2015, 04:10 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default When wines go from being wine boutique wines to supermarket wines

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:47:19 AM UTC+2, santiago wrote:

Who is surviving this effect? Wineries that own or control the
vineyards: L�pez de Heredia, Vi�a Real.


Is Vina real and CVNE the same producer? I always see those names together.

http://www.vinexus.dk/catalogsearch/...y=1309&x=0&y=0

If I were to try one of these, which one has most earth and leather? Perhaps the CVNE Tinto Gran Reserva Imperial 2007?


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Old 16-05-2015, 07:42 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default When wines go from being wine boutique wines to supermarket wines

Michael Nielsen wrote in
:

So the decline is not as it goes to supermarkets, but it already
happened since the 70s?

How's Marqués de Cáceres viewed in Spain?


Yet more plonk.


The G.R. is 33E here. Oh, the description actually states that its
style is a fusion of rioja and bordeaux.


I used to purchase a bottle of the big names in every big vintage. 94, 95,
96, 01, 04, 05... wines like Marqués de Cáceres. The '96 I remember being a
very nice wine at a nice price. But from that year, I could not find
another great one.

I think I commented that Faustino I Gran Reserva 2001, which I purchased at
a supermarket a few months ago, was nice and good buy for the price (but I
did not buy more).





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Old 16-05-2015, 07:49 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default When wines go from being wine boutique wines to supermarket wines

Michael Nielsen wrote in
:

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:47:19 AM UTC+2, santiago wrote:

Who is surviving this effect? Wineries that own or control the
vineyards: L�pez de Heredia, Vi�a Real.


Is Vina real and CVNE the same producer? I always see those names
together.

http://www.vinexus.dk/catalogsearch/...&winery=1309&x
=0&y=0

If I were to try one of these, which one has most earth and leather?
Perhaps the CVNE Tinto Gran Reserva Imperial 2007?


Same group. CVNE stands for Compañía Vinícola del Norte de España. They
make several wines like Cune Crianza / Reserva / maybe Gran Reserva too.
And then they have the Imperial line (only Reserva and Gran Reserva) which
is a step up in quality and then there is Viña Real which is a different
winery from the same group, where my guess is that they own the vineyards
around the winery and was built more in a Bordeaux style. They also own
Viñedos del Contino which is a very good winery, a bit more modern.

I do not know what do you mean with "earthy" and "leathery", but my guess
is that you may enjoy the wines from La Rioja Alta better because they tend
to be leathery and meaty. Look for Viña Arana Reserva, Viña Ardanza Reserva
and, specially, 904 Gran Reserva. Retail in Spain: 15 euro / 20 euro / 30
euro respectively.

Regarding Imperial Gran Reserva 2007, please note that 2007 was a difficult
vintage for Rioja, as was 2008. Of course, good wineries make good wine
also in difficult years. I would bet on 2001, 2004 or 2005 better.

In that shop from the link, they are offering Viña Real Reserva 2010 which
I have recommended several time. That would be my pick.

s







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