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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
RobertsonChai
 
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Default Should we review supermarket wines?

Eric writes, on another thread

>
>Folks,
>
> I found a very decent and inexpensive Cabernet: Oak Creek 2002. At
>$4.00 a bottle it is well worth a try and I must say at twice the cost of
>Two Buck Chuck it is more than twice as good ;-).
>
>Thanks,
>Eric
>


Eric--thank you for the recommendation!

Actually, there are dozens of decent $4 (US) cabernets on the market right
now---and that's as it should be.

There is a huge glut of quality wine in the US right now, and it affords all of
us some opportunities. Perhaps we should open up a thread here, on wines under
$6, and solicit recommendations.

However, it would be more fun if we found some members to post the results of
blind tastings on some of these wines (Robert Parker obviously isn't reviewing
them).

Industry people will often "plant" posts to newsgroups, posing as consumers,
and recommend--depending on the newsgroup-- a particular video game, rock
album, Hollywood film, mutual fund, etc.

However, in this group we have to take it on faith that the recommendation is
genuine---and at 4 bucks, who could go wrong, anyway?

Eric, I believe your recommendation is genuine and I welcome you to the
discussion.

I think it's high time we talk about the everyday stuff we drink with chicken
or pot roast.

A favorite and long-dead writer, Leon Adams, once said (and I am paraphrasing),

"Why are we always talking about Sunday wines? [that's what he called them]

"There are plenty of other wines which can bring enjoyment to everyday
situations".

I agree. Even in the Medoc they drink Bordeaux Superior on weeknights. In
Burgundy, they drink Beaujolais.

I open this to the group:

Some of these brands, such as Two-Buck Chuck, or Sea Ridge (Safeway's $3 wine),
or Oak Creek, may disappear when the wine lake dries up.

Industry forecasts for the late 00s in California suggest that we may return
again to shortages of quality everyday wine. But the vinicultural engines of
Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia are already starting to pump massive
quantities of really decent, affordable wines to our shores, and also to all of
the countries represented in this newsgroup.

Some of these made-up brands, such as Oak Creek, go out to target geographic
markets, and may be a passing phenomenon.

Even Two-Buck Chuck (Charles Shaw) is essentially a localised, California
phenomenon--though it is available in some other states.

But there are several "hot" international brands, now, from Australia, Chile
and Italy. Why not review them?

Many years ago, Mouton-Cadet (from Baron Philippe) became an international
supermarket wonder, and a number of Burgundy negociants created their cheaper
blends of "Chablis", "Puilly Fuisse" and such. And then there was Blue Nun,
from Germany.

Should we perhaps include some discussions here of these "weekday" wines?

Ten years ago, I would have dismissed this idea. But now, with the cost of a
"good" bottle of wine surpassing the price of a fine restaurant dinner course
for two, shouldn't we reconsider?

There ARE, after all, a number of supermarket brands to avoid.

I leave this to the newsgroup. What say ye?

---Bob





  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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Default

Personally, I read reviews of wines at all price levels with interest. I'd love
to find an under-$5 wine I really enjoyed, but those are few and far between.
I'll post a note on the Borsao this week, but even that has crept up to the $6
mark! And the Rex Goliath PN seems to have gone from $5.50 to $7 or $8
locally.Ditto the Iche "Les Heretiques" .

But keep the notes coming, so I know what others find worthwhile.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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Default

Personally, I read reviews of wines at all price levels with interest. I'd love
to find an under-$5 wine I really enjoyed, but those are few and far between.
I'll post a note on the Borsao this week, but even that has crept up to the $6
mark! And the Rex Goliath PN seems to have gone from $5.50 to $7 or $8
locally.Ditto the Iche "Les Heretiques" .

But keep the notes coming, so I know what others find worthwhile.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
LC Geldenhuys
 
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Default

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:48:58 -0500, jcoulter
> wrote:

<snip>

>Not quite supermarket, but KVW's Roodeberg (red mountain, really!) is at
>the 8.99 price at one local source a steal, full bodied and moderately
>tannic cab blend with a nice finish. It drinks somewhat like Greysac +.


That should be KWV, BTW. And at $8.99 it IS a steal, we pay even a
tadd more at our local supermarkets in SA!



  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
LC Geldenhuys
 
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Default

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:48:58 -0500, jcoulter
> wrote:

<snip>

>Not quite supermarket, but KVW's Roodeberg (red mountain, really!) is at
>the 8.99 price at one local source a steal, full bodied and moderately
>tannic cab blend with a nice finish. It drinks somewhat like Greysac +.


That should be KWV, BTW. And at $8.99 it IS a steal, we pay even a
tadd more at our local supermarkets in SA!

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
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Default

LC Geldenhuys > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:48:58 -0500, jcoulter
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Not quite supermarket, but KVW's Roodeberg (red mountain, really!) is

at
>>the 8.99 price at one local source a steal, full bodied and moderately
>>tannic cab blend with a nice finish. It drinks somewhat like Greysac

+.
>
> That should be KWV, BTW. And at $8.99 it IS a steal, we pay even a
> tadd more at our local supermarkets in SA!
>
>


Elsewhere it is 12.99 go figure. Still tastes the same;-)
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
LC Geldenhuys
 
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Default

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:14:38 -0500, jcoulter
> wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> That should be KWV, BTW. And at $8.99 it IS a steal, we pay even a
>> tadd more at our local supermarkets in SA!
>>
>>

>
>Elsewhere it is 12.99 go figure. Still tastes the same;-)


Aah, that's more like it! Although I suspect the profit goes to the
supermarkte/importer instead of back to SA ;-) !

  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Topi Kuusinen
 
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LC Geldenhuys wrote:

> Aah, that's more like it! Although I suspect the profit goes to the
> supermarkte/importer instead of back to SA ;-) !
>


The 2002 KWV Roodeberg is listed for less than 10 Euro even here in
Finland, where we are blessed with an alcohol tax on wines.

I think I'll find and buy some bottles.

I've recently been looking for good red wines that are ready for
drinking now. Do you think the 2002 would be ready now?

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen, Finland

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Topi Kuusinen > wrote in news:E2tfd.253
:


> I've recently been looking for good red wines that are ready for
> drinking now. Do you think the 2002 would be ready now?
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Topi Kuusinen, Finland
>
>


2002 is what I'm drinking at any rate ;-)


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Topi Kuusinen" > skrev i melding
...
> LC Geldenhuys wrote:
>
> I've recently been looking for good red wines that are ready for drinking
> now. Do you think the 2002 would be ready now?
>

Sure - I've had a few of these this year, all drinking well. If you ask
me - I'd guess they'll keep up to five years but not necessarily improving -
any opinions out there?
Anders


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
Posts: n/a
Default



RobertsonChai wrote:

>
> Should we perhaps include some discussions here of these "weekday" wines?
>
> Ten years ago, I would have dismissed this idea. But now, with the cost of a
> "good" bottle of wine surpassing the price of a fine restaurant dinner course
> for two, shouldn't we reconsider?
>
> There ARE, after all, a number of supermarket brands to avoid.
>
> I leave this to the newsgroup. What say ye?
>
>


Bob,
You nearly read my mind. I was just contemplating doing my annual/occasional
"What are your current house wines?" survey. Of course, this is a bit different
from "supermarket" wines in the sense that many denizens of this group will find
good, cheap non-mass-market wines such as the Borsao that will grace the shelves
of only a few supermarkets (Whole Foods wine selection is usually quite
interesting, if overpriced like all else in the store).

FWIW, I've recently posted tasting notes on several inexpensive wines, one of
which at least is a true supermarket wine: the 2001 Woodbridge California
Cabernet. I also posted notes on the 2004 Verramonte Sauvignon Blanc from Chile
that retails here in IN for $8.99. The trouble with most supermarket wines is
that there is little to recommend them. I remember an issue of the Wine Advocate
some years ago where Parker did in fact taste through a selection of jug wines
from a supermarket and found one or two to his liking (out of maybe 20).

I think having a regular thread of "attractive wines in the under-<arbitrary
price> range" would probably fit the bill and provide enough flexibility for the
international audience that this newsgroup has.

Mark Lipton

p.s. My supermarket sells Villa Maria Private Bin SB and six or so different
Chiantis. Nyah nyah! :P


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent
 
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Default

I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to enjoy
the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.

Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know what
causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding occasional
$5 bargains)? tia

\/


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Grant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Vincent" > wrote in message
om...
> I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to

enjoy
> the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
> successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
> will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.
>
> Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
> terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
> happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know

what
> causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding

occasional
> $5 bargains)? tia
>
> \/


You're not alone. Try taking a Tylenol before going to bed. Excedrin also
works, but has caffeine, which may cause a different problem.


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick R.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Vincent wrote:
> I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to enjoy
> the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
> successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
> will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.
>
> Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
> terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
> happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know what
> causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding occasional
> $5 bargains)? tia
>

Hi Vincent,
Just curious, is it "cheap" vs. "better" ... or red vs. white? I have a
friend who can't drink red wines of any kind because they give her a
headache. She doesn't have any problem with whites in any price range.

Like I said, Just curious,
Dick R.

>
>




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Midlife
 
Posts: n/a
Default

in article , Vincent at
wrote on 10/26/04 3:04 PM:

> I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to enjoy
> the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
> successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
> will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.
>
> Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
> terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
> happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know what
> causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding occasional
> $5 bargains)? tia
>
> \/
>
>


In my experience it's a pretty well known fact that the tannins in Red wines
can cause headaches in sensitive individuals. It has something to do with
the tannins binding with starch in the blood, and thereby reducing the
serotinin levels in the brain. (I'm not medically trained, but that's how
it's been described to me.) One piece of literature I've seen also suggests
that tannin levels in red wine increase with time of wood aging. Could be a
clue to the quality/headache relationship there. I'm sure some of the
regular posters here have some info from that angle.

Personally, I am prone to vascular or cluster-type headaches which can
sometimes be brought on by red wine. I pretty regularly take 3 tylenol
(acetaminophen) within an hour or so of red wine consumption (definitely do
it before going to sleep).... and it works. I can't justify the 3 tablet
figure, but I weight around 200lbs..

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, says...
>
>
>
>RobertsonChai wrote:
>
>>
>> Should we perhaps include some discussions here of these "weekday" wines?
>>
>> Ten years ago, I would have dismissed this idea. But now, with the cost of

a
>> "good" bottle of wine surpassing the price of a fine restaurant dinner

course
>> for two, shouldn't we reconsider?
>>
>> There ARE, after all, a number of supermarket brands to avoid.
>>
>> I leave this to the newsgroup. What say ye?
>>
>>

>
>Bob,
> You nearly read my mind. I was just contemplating doing my annual/

occasional
>"What are your current house wines?" survey. Of course, this is a bit

different
>from "supermarket" wines in the sense that many denizens of this group will

find
>good, cheap non-mass-market wines such as the Borsao that will grace the

shelves
>of only a few supermarkets (Whole Foods wine selection is usually quite
>interesting, if overpriced like all else in the store).
>
>FWIW, I've recently posted tasting notes on several inexpensive wines, one of
>which at least is a true supermarket wine: the 2001 Woodbridge California
>Cabernet. I also posted notes on the 2004 Verramonte Sauvignon Blanc from

Chile
>that retails here in IN for $8.99. The trouble with most supermarket wines

is
>that there is little to recommend them. I remember an issue of the Wine

Advocat
>e
>some years ago where Parker did in fact taste through a selection of jug

wines
>from a supermarket and found one or two to his liking (out of maybe 20).
>
>I think having a regular thread of "attractive wines in the under-<arbitrary
>price> range" would probably fit the bill and provide enough flexibility for

the
>international audience that this newsgroup has.
>
>Mark Lipton
>
>p.s. My supermarket sells Villa Maria Private Bin SB and six or so different
>Chiantis. Nyah nyah! :P


Mark,

I'll put my list together for when you start the thread. I've also tried to
add some TN's on "value priced" wines, though I have to admit that some got
pretty esoteric, especially on an international level.

Along those lines, I find that there is a bit of a gulf between international
value reds in AZ. One either has the plonk, or must be ready to shell out US$
30/btl. I see a lot of nice "drinkers" on the shelves in many other states,
and hear about a ton more here, and in the WS.

Also, I freely admit that one man's value wine, is another's "special occasion
wine."

Looking forward to your "house wines" thread.

Hunt

  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Midlife wrote:
> in article , Vincent at
> wrote on 10/26/04 3:04 PM:
>
>
>>I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to enjoy
>>the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
>>successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
>>will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.
>>
>>Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
>>terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
>>happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know what
>>causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding occasional
>>$5 bargains)? tia
>>
>>\/
>>
>>

>
>
> In my experience it's a pretty well known fact that the tannins in Red wines
> can cause headaches in sensitive individuals. It has something to do with
> the tannins binding with starch in the blood, and thereby reducing the
> serotinin levels in the brain. (I'm not medically trained, but that's how
> it's been described to me.) One piece of literature I've seen also suggests
> that tannin levels in red wine increase with time of wood aging. Could be a
> clue to the quality/headache relationship there. I'm sure some of the
> regular posters here have some info from that angle.


Interesting idea, but I think that the tannin/serotonin connection is
mostly concerned with migraines -- and is controversial even there.

>
> Personally, I am prone to vascular or cluster-type headaches which can
> sometimes be brought on by red wine. I pretty regularly take 3 tylenol
> (acetaminophen) within an hour or so of red wine consumption (definitely do
> it before going to sleep).... and it works. I can't justify the 3 tablet
> figure, but I weight around 200lbs..
>


You are aware of the liver toxicity issues with alcohol/acetominophen?
Will no other NSAID work?

Mark Lipton
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Hauser
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mark Lipton" in news:eoEfd.428450$mD.12641@attbi_s02...
> Midlife wrote:
> > In my experience it's a pretty well known fact that the tannins
> > in Red wines can cause headaches in sensitive individuals.

>
> Interesting idea, but I think that the tannin/serotonin
> connection is mostly concerned with migraines -- and is
> controversial even there.
> ...
> You are aware of the liver toxicity issues with
> alcohol/acetominophen? Will no other NSAID work?
>
> Mark Lipton


Thank you for that last bit, Mark (I am a little surprised to see, today,
people readily proposing acetaminophen in connection with alcohol, despite
all of the publicity of risks that have shown up in various contexts).

Histamines have been more usual suspects than tannins, in my own experience
of popular theories about wine and headaches. One more specific cause was
discussed on this newsgroup (or its predecessor) in the 1980s, the addition
of soluble preservatives to some very cheap wines. Soluble sorbates are
sometimes used for this in foods, and I have heard of headaches being
associated with them, and am pretty sure I have experienced it myself.

-- Max




  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Midlife
 
Posts: n/a
Default

in article eoEfd.428450$mD.12641@attbi_s02, Mark Lipton at
wrote on 10/26/04 8:14 PM:

> Midlife wrote:


>>>

>>
>>
>> In my experience it's a pretty well known fact that the tannins in Red wines
>> can cause headaches in sensitive individuals. It has something to do with
>> the tannins binding with starch in the blood, and thereby reducing the
>> serotinin levels in the brain. (I'm not medically trained, but that's how
>> it's been described to me.) One piece of literature I've seen also suggests
>> that tannin levels in red wine increase with time of wood aging. Could be a
>> clue to the quality/headache relationship there. I'm sure some of the
>> regular posters here have some info from that angle.

>
> Interesting idea, but I think that the tannin/serotonin connection is
> mostly concerned with migraines -- and is controversial even there.


For something like 20 years, I've had doctors tell me that red wine can
aggravate my proclivity for headaches by causing blood vessels near the
brain to dilate. True, the literature related to the tannin/serotonin
connection is typically in reference to migraines. Two other headache
causal relationships have been suggested to me: sulfite allergy (which I
don't appear to have), and histamine reaction, which may be a possibility-
though when I feel a wine headache coming on it does not respond to
anti-histamines (one might think it would).
>
>>
>> Personally, I am prone to vascular or cluster-type headaches which can
>> sometimes be brought on by red wine. I pretty regularly take 3 tylenol
>> (acetaminophen) within an hour or so of red wine consumption (definitely do
>> it before going to sleep).... and it works. I can't justify the 3 tablet
>> figure, but I weight around 200lbs..
>>

>
> You are aware of the liver toxicity issues with alcohol/acetominophen?
> Will no other NSAID work?


No, I'm not......... but I think I should be. What's that all about?

>
> Mark Lipton


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Topi Kuusinen
 
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Default

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> Sure - I've had a few of these this year, all drinking well. If you
> ask me - I'd guess they'll keep up to five years but not necessarily
> improving - any opinions out there? Anders
>


Thanks for all the information about the drinkability (2002 Roodeberg) now.

I'll try and locate a bottle or three and have a go at it.

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen, Finland

  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
LC Geldenhuys
 
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Default

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:02:29 -0700, Midlife > wrote:

>in article , jcoulter at
wrote on 10/26/04 11:21 AM:
>
>> Topi Kuusinen > wrote in news:E2tfd.253
>> :
>>
>>
>>> I've recently been looking for good red wines that are ready for
>>> drinking now. Do you think the 2002 would be ready now?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -Topi Kuusinen, Finland
>>>
>>>

>>
>> 2002 is what I'm drinking at any rate ;-)

>
>I found '01 KWV Roodeberg at a local South African-themed shop in Southern
>California, selling for US$16.95. Sounds pretty steep, but I picked up one
>bottle to try, based on comments in this thread.
>
>They also recommended '00 Boschendal "Lavoy" and '01 Migration Cab/Merlot.
>Any comments on those?


I'm afraid I haven't had these 2 wines before. The Migration, as far
as I can tell, does not even retail on the SA market, export only.
According to the winemaker, his wines are ‘Consumer-friendly but
serious’. The Boschendal Lanoy is a blend that varies from year to
year. The 2000 is cab/shiraz/merlot. Boschendal does have a credible
reputation in SA, so if it's affordable, give it a try!

The Roodeberg, incidentally, (the '01 at least), seems to be a blend
of cab, merlot, shiraz and ruby cab.

  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
MC
 
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Dear Vincent

A common cause of headaches from wine is high quantities of sulfites.

It is known in France that cheaper wines have higher quantities of sulfites
as the quality is average and the sulfites are the only thing
holding some these wines together.

Also, even for good quality wines, higher levels of sulfites are needed in
bad years. (When I say high, it is under the legal limit, but at the high
end)

On saying that, I am seeing more and more top quality French producers
lowering there sulfite levels as the quality of the grapes is excellent from
good vineyard practices and more careful vinification.

Regards

Marc


"Vincent" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to
> enjoy
> the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
> successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
> will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.
>
> Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
> terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
> happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know
> what
> causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding
> occasional
> $5 bargains)? tia
>
> \/
>
>



  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan the Man
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"MC" > wrote in message >...
> Dear Vincent
>
> A common cause of headaches from wine is high quantities of sulfites.
>
> It is known in France that cheaper wines have higher quantities of sulfites
> as the quality is average and the sulfites are the only thing
> holding some these wines together.
>
> Also, even for good quality wines, higher levels of sulfites are needed in
> bad years. (When I say high, it is under the legal limit, but at the high
> end)
>
> On saying that, I am seeing more and more top quality French producers
> lowering there sulfite levels as the quality of the grapes is excellent from
> good vineyard practices and more careful vinification.
>
> Regards
>
> Marc


This post rings true for me. I have a coworker whose wife gets
terrible headaches from wine sulfites. Her solution is to drink
organic (no-sulfite-added) wines from vintners like Frei or Organic
Wine Works. My coworker says they taste like dirt; I have never tried
them myself.

Dan-O
>
>
> "Vincent" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
> > I'll jump on this thread, but change the subject. My wife and I try to
> > enjoy
> > the "lesser expensive" wines as much as possible. We're not always
> > successful in picking a $4.99 bottle off the shelf at random, but often we
> > will get lucky and find something we both enjoy.
> >
> > Some of those cheap ones, however (despite being enjoyable), produce most
> > terrible headaches the following morning (for both of us). This never
> > happens with a "better" wine. Any similar experiences? Does anyone know
> > what
> > causes this and is there a way to avoid them (while still finding
> > occasional
> > $5 bargains)? tia
> >
> > \/
> >
> >

  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
JEP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Dan the Man) wrote in message . com>...
>
> This post rings true for me. I have a coworker whose wife gets
> terrible headaches from wine sulfites. Her solution is to drink
> organic (no-sulfite-added) wines from vintners like Frei or Organic
> Wine Works. My coworker says they taste like dirt; I have never tried
> them myself.
>


I occasionally suffer from "wine headaches" also, but in my case I'm
very certain that they are not caused by sulfites in the wine.

I regularly work with much higher concentrations of sulfites than
would ever be found in wine and do not get a headache. I may suffer
symptoms more like a histamine reaction (nasal congestion, sneezing,
watery eyes, heaviness in chest) that are short lived, but not the
headache. I have also ingested other foods with much higher levels of
sulfites than wine with no adverse effects. The headaches appear to
correlate with red wine consumption even though whites typically
contain more sulfite.

This leads me to believe that it isn't the sulfites in the wine. I
have also had the same wine on multiple occasions with headaches
occurring sometimes and not occurring others. This (at least in my
mind) indicates that it's not just the wine, but that there may be
some other factor involved. I don't know if the other factor is from
other foods consumed, something environmental, or some type of
physiological or psychological condition. I'm trying to correlate the
headaches with possible culprits by noting these things when the
headaches occur.

I think sulfites get the blame because of all the marketing hype in
the US about bad, bad sulfites.

Andy


  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

JEP wrote:


> I think sulfites get the blame because of all the marketing hype in
> the US about bad, bad sulfites.


Andy,
IMO, you've hit the nail on the head. If sulfites were as bad as
many people think, then bananas and dried fruit would be giving people
far worse headaches than wine. The fact is that, despite extensive
research, medical science has yet to identify the cause(s) of wine
headaches. Given the fact that only in the past decade have people
begun to explain why alcohol has a neurochemical effect, this may not be
altogether surprising! ;-)

Mark Lipton
  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
RobertsonChai
 
Posts: n/a
Default

MC (Marc) has nailed it.

>
>A common cause of headaches from wine is high quantities of sulfites.
>
>It is known in France that cheaper wines have higher quantities of sulfites
>as the quality is average and the sulfites are the only thing
>holding some these wines together.


Sulfites cause headaches in some people and adverse reactions in others.

Yes, high sulfites can contribute to adverse
reactions when drinking wine.

It depends on the person.

The persons who react to sulfites are extremely rare.

But it also depends on how much you drink.

If you drink 2 bottles of a high sulfite wine in one evening, you will be
drunk mostly, and ALSO suffering from the presumed sulfites. Poor baby.

Which in wines are in parts per million, compared to many common foods, like
sausage, which have ten thousand more parts per million of sulfites than wine.

Did you perchance, have a slice of salame when you drank?

You would be a most unusual person, because sulfites in some form or another
are found in many of the foods we eat at wine fests--mostly preserved meats.

Do you get similarly sick over salame?
Sulfites, by the way, only affect in a life-threatening way a miniscule portion
of the population. In all of the complaints about wine-drinking I've ever ever
heard, the main culprit is alcohol, plain and stupid.

You drink too much, and then you complain about your allergies to sulfites. Or
histamines. Or tannins.

Sorry, this is bullshit.

Except for the .0001 per cent of us (and I'm not sure of the exact percentage,
but it's extremely small), who are deathly allergic to sulfites and some of the
the other ingredients in wine--the painful truth is that it's the ALCCHOL,
dammit.

Let's be REAL here. You drink a bottle of wine in less than an hour, and you
will have aftereffects the next morning.

TWO bottles in less than 2 hours, and I guarantee hangover melancholia.

You can rationalize this all you want: say what you want about tannins,
histamines, fusel oils (in the case of distilled spirits), sulfites, etc.

Unless you are one of the miniscule portions of the population which is
genuinely allergic to these compounds, it's all alcohol, brother.

We need to get real about this: alcohol abuse is not limited to nine Corona
beers at a Mexican restaurant, or a fifth of Glenfiddich at a golf tournament;
or burning Havanas and Cuban rum at a polo match; or Martinis at yer local
watering hole.

Hangovers = alcohol abuse, NOT some disaffected notion about, pooh! "sulfites".

Please, y'all, get real.

I am an apologetic drinker of wine, and sometimes I have abused my privelege.
I have been in this business all my professional life. I've been a winemaker of
some of Napa's "cult" wines.

Please don't spoil our mutual dream. Don't let bogus health claims influence
your choice of wine, because it's a pure product, and it's always been, even at
the supermarket level.

Chemical additives to wine, except SO2 which is a natural product rated in
parts per million, simply don't happen.

That's all.

---Bob


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
RobertsonChai
 
Posts: n/a
Default

MC (Marc) has nailed it.

>
>A common cause of headaches from wine is high quantities of sulfites.
>
>It is known in France that cheaper wines have higher quantities of sulfites
>as the quality is average and the sulfites are the only thing
>holding some these wines together.


Sulfites cause headaches in some people and adverse reactions in others.

Yes, high sulfites can contribute to adverse
reactions when drinking wine.

It depends on the person.

The persons who react to sulfites are extremely rare.

But it also depends on how much you drink.

If you drink 2 bottles of a high sulfite wine in one evening, you will be
drunk mostly, and ALSO suffering from the presumed sulfites. Poor baby.

Which in wines are in parts per million, compared to many common foods, like
sausage, which have ten thousand more parts per million of sulfites than wine.

Did you perchance, have a slice of salame when you drank?

You would be a most unusual person, because sulfites in some form or another
are found in many of the foods we eat at wine fests--mostly preserved meats.

Do you get similarly sick over salame?
Sulfites, by the way, only affect in a life-threatening way a miniscule portion
of the population. In all of the complaints about wine-drinking I've ever ever
heard, the main culprit is alcohol, plain and stupid.

You drink too much, and then you complain about your allergies to sulfites. Or
histamines. Or tannins.

Sorry, this is bullshit.

Except for the .0001 per cent of us (and I'm not sure of the exact percentage,
but it's extremely small), who are deathly allergic to sulfites and some of the
the other ingredients in wine--the painful truth is that it's the ALCCHOL,
dammit.

Let's be REAL here. You drink a bottle of wine in less than an hour, and you
will have aftereffects the next morning.

TWO bottles in less than 2 hours, and I guarantee hangover melancholia.

You can rationalize this all you want: say what you want about tannins,
histamines, fusel oils (in the case of distilled spirits), sulfites, etc.

Unless you are one of the miniscule portions of the population which is
genuinely allergic to these compounds, it's all alcohol, brother.

We need to get real about this: alcohol abuse is not limited to nine Corona
beers at a Mexican restaurant, or a fifth of Glenfiddich at a golf tournament;
or burning Havanas and Cuban rum at a polo match; or Martinis at yer local
watering hole.

Hangovers = alcohol abuse, NOT some disaffected notion about, pooh! "sulfites".

Please, y'all, get real.

I am an apologetic drinker of wine, and sometimes I have abused my privelege.
I have been in this business all my professional life. I've been a winemaker of
some of Napa's "cult" wines.

Please don't spoil our mutual dream. Don't let bogus health claims influence
your choice of wine, because it's a pure product, and it's always been, even at
the supermarket level.

Chemical additives to wine, except SO2 which is a natural product rated in
parts per million, simply don't happen.

That's all.

---Bob


  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
RobertsonChai
 
Posts: n/a
Default

MC (Marc) has nailed it.

>
>A common cause of headaches from wine is high quantities of sulfites.
>
>It is known in France that cheaper wines have higher quantities of sulfites
>as the quality is average and the sulfites are the only thing
>holding some these wines together.


Sulfites cause headaches in some people and adverse reactions in others.

Yes, high sulfites can contribute to adverse
reactions when drinking wine.

It depends on the person.

The persons who react to sulfites are extremely rare.

But it also depends on how much you drink.

If you drink 2 bottles of a high sulfite wine in one evening, you will be
drunk mostly, and ALSO suffering from the presumed sulfites. Poor baby.

Which in wines are in parts per million, compared to many common foods, like
sausage, which have ten thousand more parts per million of sulfites than wine.

Did you perchance, have a slice of salame when you drank?

You would be a most unusual person, because sulfites in some form or another
are found in many of the foods we eat at wine fests--mostly preserved meats.

Do you get similarly sick over salame?
Sulfites, by the way, only affect in a life-threatening way a miniscule portion
of the population. In all of the complaints about wine-drinking I've ever ever
heard, the main culprit is alcohol, plain and stupid.

You drink too much, and then you complain about your allergies to sulfites. Or
histamines. Or tannins.

Sorry, this is bullshit.

Except for the .0001 per cent of us (and I'm not sure of the exact percentage,
but it's extremely small), who are deathly allergic to sulfites and some of the
the other ingredients in wine--the painful truth is that it's the ALCCHOL,
dammit.

Let's be REAL here. You drink a bottle of wine in less than an hour, and you
will have aftereffects the next morning.

TWO bottles in less than 2 hours, and I guarantee hangover melancholia.

You can rationalize this all you want: say what you want about tannins,
histamines, fusel oils (in the case of distilled spirits), sulfites, etc.

Unless you are one of the miniscule portions of the population which is
genuinely allergic to these compounds, it's all alcohol, brother.

We need to get real about this: alcohol abuse is not limited to nine Corona
beers at a Mexican restaurant, or a fifth of Glenfiddich at a golf tournament;
or burning Havanas and Cuban rum at a polo match; or Martinis at yer local
watering hole.

Hangovers = alcohol abuse, NOT some disaffected notion about, pooh! "sulfites".

Please, y'all, get real.

I am an apologetic drinker of wine, and sometimes I have abused my privelege.
I have been in this business all my professional life. I've been a winemaker of
some of Napa's "cult" wines.

Please don't spoil our mutual dream. Don't let bogus health claims influence
your choice of wine, because it's a pure product, and it's always been, even at
the supermarket level.

Chemical additives to wine, except SO2 which is a natural product rated in
parts per million, simply don't happen.

That's all.

---Bob


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"RobertsonChai" wrote in message

<snip>

> Sulfites, by the way, only affect in a life-threatening way a miniscule

portion
> of the population. In all of the complaints about wine-drinking I've ever

ever
> heard, the main culprit is alcohol, plain and stupid.
>
> You drink too much, and then you complain about your allergies to

sulfites. Or
> histamines. Or tannins.
>
> Sorry, this is bullshit.


No, not the case at all. At 46 years old, I'm well aquainted with hangovers.
These are not hangover headaches I am refering to. But one glass of a cheap
California white can produce a near-migraine the following morning. Two
glasses, full-blast. Same wine, one month later, with another type food...
same results. Other wines in-between, no problems!! Why?

I can split a 1/2 bottle of Sauternes with my wife, followed by 3/4 of a
full bottle of Bordeuax (wife drinks the other 1/4) without the slightest
headache (for either of us), ever. Now I'm not trying to single out
California, or say that France doesn't make cheap headache producing wines
as well, only that the "problem" ones that make it to my supermarket shelf
are the cheap whites from California. Most any white will taste "okay" to
me, which is why I continue to experiment with them (and do find many that I
enjoy that do not cause headaches). But enjoyable reds in the $4.99 - $6.99
price range are harder to come by, so I don't purchase many, thus cannot
comment on them.

<snip>

\/


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"RobertsonChai" wrote in message

<snip>

> Sulfites, by the way, only affect in a life-threatening way a miniscule

portion
> of the population. In all of the complaints about wine-drinking I've ever

ever
> heard, the main culprit is alcohol, plain and stupid.
>
> You drink too much, and then you complain about your allergies to

sulfites. Or
> histamines. Or tannins.
>
> Sorry, this is bullshit.


No, not the case at all. At 46 years old, I'm well aquainted with hangovers.
These are not hangover headaches I am refering to. But one glass of a cheap
California white can produce a near-migraine the following morning. Two
glasses, full-blast. Same wine, one month later, with another type food...
same results. Other wines in-between, no problems!! Why?

I can split a 1/2 bottle of Sauternes with my wife, followed by 3/4 of a
full bottle of Bordeuax (wife drinks the other 1/4) without the slightest
headache (for either of us), ever. Now I'm not trying to single out
California, or say that France doesn't make cheap headache producing wines
as well, only that the "problem" ones that make it to my supermarket shelf
are the cheap whites from California. Most any white will taste "okay" to
me, which is why I continue to experiment with them (and do find many that I
enjoy that do not cause headaches). But enjoyable reds in the $4.99 - $6.99
price range are harder to come by, so I don't purchase many, thus cannot
comment on them.

<snip>

\/


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