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Default TN: Nice Mosel, ok Burg Blanc, not so good Rioja

Tuesday we had lemon sole, bok choy, and red cabbage (hey, cabbage 2
ways). Wine was the 2009 Matrot Bourgogne Blanc. I only had a half
glass due to driving - found it tight, soft, with a little matchstick.
Went to the city to meet a group of college students and give out some
stuff to those in need, drove back through snowstorm. Decided I'd have
a midnight glass to relax. Sulfury edge was gone, had opened up, but I
still didn't love. Classic pear/apple Chardonnay fruit with a little
hint of oak, but softer acids than my wont. Decent Bourgogne, but not
the "baby Meursault" I hope for with Matrot, and this won't be my
normal multiple bottle buy. B-

Wednesday was all snow shoveling and work, when I got home I looked
forward to the short rib with horseradish broth Betsy had prepared
(with potatoes and salad). I went to grab a red, ended up with the
1996 Dominio de Conte Rioja Reserva. I had purchased this because I
read it was a traditional producer, which is usually my preference in
Rioja. I think in this case some tradtions should pass. There's a dill
note that I assume is traditional American oak, but this wine is
mostly about VA, very ripe plums (actually a few maybe fell off tree
and started rotting on ground), and (welcome) dilution. With some time
a bit of ashtray emerged. Bad storage or bad wine? C-

Tonight striped bass with an avocado sauce along with leftover
vegetables, and the 2009 AJ Adam Hofberg Kabinett. Spatlese sweetness/
body, white pit fruit with a touch of citrus, floral, hint of spice.
Works great with the food, though on it's own I'd prefer it to have a
touch less honied sweetness. Still, excellent wine. A-

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.
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Default TN: Nice Mosel, ok Burg Blanc, not so good Rioja

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, DaleW > wrote:
> Tuesday we had lemon sole, bok choy, and red cabbage (hey, cabbage 2
> ways). Wine was the 2009 Matrot Bourgogne Blanc. I only had a half
> glass due to driving - found it tight, soft, with a little matchstick.
> Went to the city to meet a group of college students and give out some
> stuff to those in need, drove back through snowstorm. Decided I'd have
> a midnight glass to relax. Sulfury edge was gone, had opened up, but I
> still didn't love. Classic pear/apple Chardonnay fruit with a little
> hint of oak, but softer acids than my wont. Decent Bourgogne, but not
> the "baby Meursault" I hope for with Matrot, and this won't be my
> normal multiple bottle buy. B-
>
> Wednesday was all snow shoveling and work, when I got home I looked
> forward to the short rib with horseradish broth Betsy had prepared
> (with potatoes and salad). I went to grab a red, ended up with the
> 1996 Dominio de Conte Rioja Reserva. I had purchased this because I
> read it was a traditional producer, which is usually my preference in
> Rioja. I think in this case some tradtions should pass. There's a dill
> note that I assume is traditional American oak, but this wine is
> mostly about VA, very ripe plums (actually a few maybe fell off tree
> and started rotting on ground), and (welcome) dilution. With some time
> a bit of ashtray emerged. Bad storage or bad wine? C-
>
> Tonight striped bass with an avocado sauce along with leftover
> vegetables, and the 2009 AJ Adam Hofberg Kabinett. Spatlese sweetness/
> body, white pit fruit with a touch of citrus, floral, hint of spice.
> Works great with the food, though on it's own I'd prefer it to have a
> touch less honied sweetness. Still, excellent wine. A-
>
> Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
> wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
> drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
> promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.


You know Dale, I really struggle with German wines regarding the
sweetness issue. Generally speaking I'm not a fan of sweet wines with
food although I've had some Auslese that were just superb. This wine
really points out the conundrum. I would expect a Kabinett to be
pretty darn dry yet you describe "Spatlese sweetness" and without
opening and tasting one would have no idea what to expect. I guess
I'd prefer some standardized method across the board for expressing
sweetness even if it means just including the RS level on the label.
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Default TN: Nice Mosel, ok Burg Blanc, not so good Rioja

"Bi!!" > wrote in news:f14d1f2c-d320-47da-8178-
:
>
> You know Dale, I really struggle with German wines regarding the
> sweetness issue. Generally speaking I'm not a fan of sweet wines with
> food although I've had some Auslese that were just superb. This wine
> really points out the conundrum. I would expect a Kabinett to be
> pretty darn dry yet you describe "Spatlese sweetness" and without
> opening and tasting one would have no idea what to expect.


I disagree with your statement that a Kabinett should be pretty darn dry,
for a certain residual sugar is needed to counterbalance the acidity,
specially if you need what the Germans call "ripe acidity" (which means
that grapes arrive to phenolic ripeness which is usually associated with
must weight.

When I drink a Kabinett I want a very balanced wine that does not leave
me a sweet aftertaste, but that's different from being dry. I hope I
managed to express myself.

Most Mosel Kabinetts are now harvested at Spatlese levels, specially from
big vintages (which usually are which appeal the American market). It
might be an issue with global warming, better knowledge of vineyard
management or other causes but it is quite a fact.

If you look for true Kabinetts, my suggestion is to look for vintages
such as 2004 or 2008 where it was actually possible to make them.

Another option is to look for the "Feinherb" or "Halbtrocken"
designations in labels. Kabinett Feinherb or Kabinet Halbtrocken usually
hit the spot for me nowadays.

Some Mosel Kabinetts are also made in a "Trocken" style and they are
pretty darn dry as you put it, but I usually find them unbalanced, with a
character in the sourness that is not of a big appeal to me. I favour the
Feinherb.

I guess
> I'd prefer some standardized method across the board for expressing
> sweetness even if it means just including the RS level on the label.


Not a bad idea, but the problem here is that it can be misleading. The RS
alone is not the only parameter to take into account, and a wine with
higher RS can taste dryer than one with lower RS.

Normally, every Weinhaus or Weingut tries to make a wine that resemble
what a Kabinett should be, but the degree to which they sucess is related
to what Nature provided that harvest.

Best,

s.

Best,

Santiago

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Default TN: Nice Mosel, ok Burg Blanc, not so good Rioja

On Jan 15, 5:21*am, santiago > wrote:
> "Bi!!" > wrote in news:f14d1f2c-d320-47da-8178-
> :
>
>
>
> > You know Dale, I really struggle with German wines regarding the
> > sweetness issue. *Generally speaking I'm not a fan of sweet wines with
> > food although I've had some Auslese that were just superb. *This wine
> > really points out the conundrum. *I would expect a Kabinett to be
> > pretty darn dry yet you describe "Spatlese sweetness" and without
> > opening and tasting one would have no idea what to expect. *

>
> I disagree with your statement that a Kabinett should be pretty darn dry,
> for a certain residual sugar is needed to counterbalance the acidity,
> specially if you need what the Germans call "ripe acidity" (which means
> that grapes arrive to phenolic ripeness which is usually associated with
> must weight.
>
> When I drink a Kabinett I want a very balanced wine that does not leave
> me a sweet aftertaste, but that's different from being dry. I hope I
> managed to express myself.
>
> Most Mosel Kabinetts are now harvested at Spatlese levels, specially from
> big vintages (which usually are which appeal the American market). It
> might be an issue with global warming, better knowledge of vineyard
> management or other causes but it is quite a fact.
>
> If you look for true Kabinetts, my suggestion is to look for vintages
> such as 2004 or 2008 where it was actually possible to make them.
>
> Another option is to look for the "Feinherb" or "Halbtrocken"
> designations in labels. Kabinett Feinherb or Kabinet Halbtrocken usually
> hit the spot for me nowadays.
>
> Some Mosel Kabinetts are also made in a "Trocken" style and they are
> pretty darn dry as you put it, but I usually find them unbalanced, with a
> character in the sourness that is not of a big appeal to me. I favour the
> Feinherb.
>
> I guess
>
> > I'd prefer some standardized method across the board for expressing
> > sweetness even if it means just including the RS level on the label.

>
> Not a bad idea, but the problem here is that it can be misleading. The RS
> alone is not the only parameter to take into account, and a wine with
> higher RS can taste dryer than one with lower RS.
>
> Normally, every Weinhaus or Weingut tries to make a wine that resemble
> what a Kabinett should be, but the degree to which they sucess is related
> to what Nature provided that harvest.
>
> Best,
>
> s.
>
> Best,
>
> Santiago


Thanks for your thoughtful response. My comment "pretty darn dry" was
poorly choosen in retrospect as all things are relative. Relative to
Auslese, Kabinett can be "pretty darn dry". I didn't mean to imply
that Kabinett was a dry wine but in the scale of sweetness, if
sweetness is the only qualifier, Kabinett is theoretically drier than
Spatlese and Auslese, etc. Thanks for the recommendations. Germans
wines can be wonderful with food...I just wish that there was a
standardized indicator for sweetness level for all off-dry and sweet
wines. I understand that acidity can balance sweetness but sweet
wines with high acid levels can still be quite sweet. I recently
opened a bottle of old Sauternes (1971 Climens) which had a tremendous
honeyed-brown sugar sweetness to it but it also had a very high acidic
component to the finish that kept it from being cloying and kept you
wanting another sip. Cheers!
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Default TN: Nice Mosel, ok Burg Blanc, not so good Rioja

On Jan 15, 6:52*am, "Bi!!" > wrote:
> On Jan 15, 5:21*am, santiago > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Bi!!" > wrote in news:f14d1f2c-d320-47da-8178-
> > :

>
> > > You know Dale, I really struggle with German wines regarding the
> > > sweetness issue. *Generally speaking I'm not a fan of sweet wines with
> > > food although I've had some Auslese that were just superb. *This wine
> > > really points out the conundrum. *I would expect a Kabinett to be
> > > pretty darn dry yet you describe "Spatlese sweetness" and without
> > > opening and tasting one would have no idea what to expect. *

>
> > I disagree with your statement that a Kabinett should be pretty darn dry,
> > for a certain residual sugar is needed to counterbalance the acidity,
> > specially if you need what the Germans call "ripe acidity" (which means
> > that grapes arrive to phenolic ripeness which is usually associated with
> > must weight.

>
> > When I drink a Kabinett I want a very balanced wine that does not leave
> > me a sweet aftertaste, but that's different from being dry. I hope I
> > managed to express myself.

>
> > Most Mosel Kabinetts are now harvested at Spatlese levels, specially from
> > big vintages (which usually are which appeal the American market). It
> > might be an issue with global warming, better knowledge of vineyard
> > management or other causes but it is quite a fact.

>
> > If you look for true Kabinetts, my suggestion is to look for vintages
> > such as 2004 or 2008 where it was actually possible to make them.

>
> > Another option is to look for the "Feinherb" or "Halbtrocken"
> > designations in labels. Kabinett Feinherb or Kabinet Halbtrocken usually
> > hit the spot for me nowadays.

>
> > Some Mosel Kabinetts are also made in a "Trocken" style and they are
> > pretty darn dry as you put it, but I usually find them unbalanced, with a
> > character in the sourness that is not of a big appeal to me. I favour the
> > Feinherb.

>
> > I guess

>
> > > I'd prefer some standardized method across the board for expressing
> > > sweetness even if it means just including the RS level on the label.

>
> > Not a bad idea, but the problem here is that it can be misleading. The RS
> > alone is not the only parameter to take into account, and a wine with
> > higher RS can taste dryer than one with lower RS.

>
> > Normally, every Weinhaus or Weingut tries to make a wine that resemble
> > what a Kabinett should be, but the degree to which they sucess is related
> > to what Nature provided that harvest.

>
> > Best,

>
> > s.

>
> > Best,

>
> > Santiago

>
> Thanks for your thoughtful response. *My comment "pretty darn dry" was
> poorly choosen in retrospect as all things are relative. *Relative to
> Auslese, Kabinett can be "pretty darn dry". *I didn't mean to imply
> that Kabinett was a dry wine but in the scale of sweetness, if
> sweetness is the only qualifier, Kabinett is theoretically drier than
> Spatlese and Auslese, etc. *Thanks for the recommendations. *Germans
> wines can be wonderful with food...I just wish that there was a
> standardized indicator for sweetness level for all off-dry and sweet
> wines. *I understand that acidity can balance sweetness but sweet
> wines with high acid levels can still be quite sweet. *I recently
> opened a bottle of old Sauternes (1971 Climens) which had a tremendous
> honeyed-brown sugar sweetness to it but it also had a very high acidic
> component to the finish that kept it from being cloying and kept you
> wanting another sip. *Cheers!


I agree with both of you!
Seriously, I agree that it can be a little confusing, but actually if
you know producer and vintage, you can guess pretty accurately. Maybe
more so than in Alsace, where folks like ZH are all over the place.
I actually find the "Spatlese masquerading as Kabinett" to be great
with spicy Asian dishes.
Auslese (or in vintages like 2005 & 2006 "Auslesen+ calling themself
Spatlesen) are harder matches for me. Great with cheese, but beyond
that....
Of course once they age a decade plus they do well with......spicy
Asian dishes.


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Default TN: Nice Mosel, ok Burg Blanc, not so good Rioja

Re-thinking about this issue during the weekend, I came to the conclusion
that an easier way to get apparently dry German Rieslings is going outside
of the Mosel.

In other areas, such as Rheinhessen or Nahe, there are plenty of producers
making dry (less than 10 grams of RS) wines inside the Grosses Gewächse
movement.

Many of the big names from such areas (and I guess it could be more or less
in Pfalz or the Rheingau, just that I do not know these areas well), make a
basic Riesling Trocken that tastes dry (even if they have a little residual
sugar).

Many of these wines are QbA wines, so they can be chaptalized (from grapes
harvested as low as 7 %vol potential alcohol), so it is really important to
go with only very reputable producers.


s.
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