I've been drinking wine for quite some time now,
but have started paying more attention, drinking
better wines, and building a cellar.

I'v bought a couple of cases of 2003 Bordeaux futures,
and am looking at buying a few more (in the $20 to $50
region). However, I'm giving the retailer a fair chunk of
money for something I'm not going to see for a few years.

Is this generally regarded as safe, or do you hear horror
stories of wine stores going broke, and folks losing their
futures money?

Thanks

Pete

"Pete Fraser" > wrote in message
...
> I've been drinking wine for quite some time now,
> but have started paying more attention, drinking
> better wines, and building a cellar.
>
> I'v bought a couple of cases of 2003 Bordeaux futures,
> and am looking at buying a few more (in the $20 to $50
> region). However, I'm giving the retailer a fair chunk of
> money for something I'm not going to see for a few years.
>
> Is this generally regarded as safe, or do you hear horror
> stories of wine stores going broke, and folks losing their
> futures money?
>
> Thanks
>
> Pete

Hard question to answer. This really depends on the retailer. I would pick
someone who has been around for a while, or else a retailer who has been
recommended by who "knows". Sometimes there is the possibility of buying
futures from the winery itself, eg Tyrells, (Australia), release a futures
semillon, which they are prepared to buy back a on release and offer 5.75%
interest on your investment. I would have no problems whatsoever with this.
Otoh I would be very wary of investing in a wine "portfolio" which will be
later auctioned. In this case you are totally dependant on the investment
company's choice of wines which may or may not increase in value. In this
latter case I have heard some horror stories.

Ron Lel

As Ron said, it depends. There was a lot of defaults (especially a big Britsh
house I believe) on some 1990 Bordeaux. The big American scandal was a Colorado
company called Rare LLC, which left a lot of people holding the bag on 2000
futures. In hindsight, there were warning signs- I don't think they had a
brick-and-mortar store, and their prices were a bit too good to be true.

I'm pretty confident re futures purchases. I only purchase from stores
(Rochambeau, Zachys, Premier Cru) that have a long track record of reliability,
a storefront with substantial inventory, and a personal history with me. Good
prices matter, but only so far as you know you'll get the goods.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...

> I'm pretty confident re futures purchases. I only purchase from stores
> (Rochambeau, Zachys, Premier Cru) that have a long track record of
> reliability,
> a storefront with substantial inventory, and a personal history with me.
> Good
> prices matter, but only so far as you know you'll get the goods.
> Dale
>
Thanks.
I was reasonably comfortable with the suppliers (Premier Cru
and klwines), and both seem to have been around for a while.
They also have real storefornts,so I reckon I'm quite safe.

Thanks once again.

Pete

>Premier Cru
>and klwines

2 very well-regarded retailers, with long histiry with futures. One note re PC-
they are a leading "gray-market" force. As they place their orders sometimes
with European suppliers rather than US ones, sometimes their future orders
arrive a bit later than others- but they do arrive!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

A while back(probably 10 years) some people in Michigan claimed they
had access to bordeaux futures at extremely good prices( do not know
the trading/transfer arrangement of futures that end up being sold in
the US). A number of reputible and large liquor stores purchased
these futures, and resold them to customers. They also kept some for
themselves. These futures were phonies. A number of stores claimed
that the customer(end user) was the purchaser of the future, and that
the customer got what was promised. In this case, a fruitless law
suit.

A few of the stores made good on the futures to maintain their good
name. I do know that Calvert-Woodley in DC was one of the stores that
sold the bad futures, and it is my understanding that they made good
on all of them.
It is my understanding that all you buy is a piece of paper that
someone bought from someone who bought it from someone else that
guarantees that you get a case of 2003 chateau gronk.

It is actually surprising how seldon the chain breaks down.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:05:35 -0700, "Pete Fraser" >
wrote:

>I've been drinking wine for quite some time now,
>but have started paying more attention, drinking
>better wines, and building a cellar.
>
>I'v bought a couple of cases of 2003 Bordeaux futures,
>and am looking at buying a few more (in the $20 to $50
>region). However, I'm giving the retailer a fair chunk of
>money for something I'm not going to see for a few years.
>
>Is this generally regarded as safe, or do you hear horror
>stories of wine stores going broke, and folks losing their
>futures money?
>
>Thanks
>
>Pete
>

gerald > wrote in message >. ..
>
> A few of the stores made good on the futures to maintain their good
> name. I do know that Calvert-Woodley in DC was one of the stores that
> sold the bad futures, and it is my understanding that they made good
> on all of them.
>>
> It is actually surprising how seldon the chain breaks down.
> >Pete
> >

Pete -- yes, they *did* make good on all of their futures contracts,
at
what I believe was a considerable cost (and headache) to them. I think
this happened in the early-mid 1990's, after a container cargo ship
broke in half during a storm while crossing the Atlantic. Half of the
ship was able to get towed to a nearby port, but the other half sank.
Guess which one sank? Yep,
the one with Calvert Woodley's wine on it.

Rare events like this aside, most reputable retailers will stand by to
deliver or otherwise make-good on their futures contracts. Stick with
ones that have been doing it for awhile, and if you are in a state
where problems can arise due to shipping concerns, pick one that is
within driving distance or can ship to you (important in "felony"
states).

Mark S

gerald > wrote in message >. ..
>
> A few of the stores made good on the futures to maintain their good
> name. I do know that Calvert-Woodley in DC was one of the stores that
> sold the bad futures, and it is my understanding that they made good
> on all of them.
>>
> It is actually surprising how seldon the chain breaks down.
> >Pete
> >

Pete -- yes, they *did* make good on all of their futures contracts,
at
what I believe was a considerable cost (and headache) to them. I think
this happened in the early-mid 1990's, after a container cargo ship
broke in half during a storm while crossing the Atlantic. Half of the
ship was able to get towed to a nearby port, but the other half sank.
Guess which one sank? Yep,
the one with Calvert Woodley's wine on it.

Rare events like this aside, most reputable retailers will stand by to
deliver or otherwise make-good on their futures contracts. Stick with
ones that have been doing it for awhile, and if you are in a state
where problems can arise due to shipping concerns, pick one that is
within driving distance or can ship to you (important in "felony"
states).

Mark S