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Parker looks to 2015
The three tier system will collaspe in the US
Alt.food.wine will be a main stream source of info The great wines will be bid on in the global market France will suffer from the global market and their obsession with tradition Screw caps will be on 95% of all bottles Spain will be the rising star of the wine world Malbec will make a big splash US wine market will be dominated by Central Coast wines Southern Italy will ascend Unoaked wines will finally become popular Not very many surprizes there. I can see the wholesalers reacting to this immediately to preserve their three tier system. Bill |
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I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to dissapearing.
If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the first growth wines of France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with Real Cork!!! Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? "Bill Loftin" > wrote in message news:KBH0d.890$xH1.85@trnddc03... > The three tier system will collaspe in the US > Alt.food.wine will be a main stream source of info > The great wines will be bid on in the global market > France will suffer from the global market and their obsession > with tradition > Screw caps will be on 95% of all bottles > Spain will be the rising star of the wine world > Malbec will make a big splash > US wine market will be dominated by Central Coast wines > Southern Italy will ascend > Unoaked wines will finally become popular > > Not very many surprizes there. I can see the wholesalers > reacting to this immediately to preserve their three tier > system. > Bill |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to dissapearing. > If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the first growth wines of > France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with Real Cork!!! > > Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. |
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True...but you don't find them on Chateau Montelena, Phelps Insignia, Caymus
Special Select, Heitz Marthas Vineyard..... I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, Lafite Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... Do ya really think you will? "Bill Loftin" > wrote in message news:EaZ0d.3339$ZP.284@trnddc05... > Richard Neidich wrote: > >> I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to dissapearing. >> If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the first growth wines >> of France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with Real Cork!!! >> >> Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? > > I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive > Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. > For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, > Lafite Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... > > Do ya really think you will? At least my hopes are that those wineries offering en-primeur or mailing-list sales will make the offer of choice - that would make everybody happe and offend nobody. Oh, yes: I'd even be prepared to pay a small premium for screwcaps on my clarets. M. (Completely disappointed by a magnum 1961 Gruaud-Larose a fortnight ago - a wedding gift back in 1992 [and, of course, the only one bottle] - with TCA spoilage.) |
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I think that will happen on the less expensive wines, white wines, but the
top houses will alway provide with cork as its the romance and tradition and maintain old word charm. Not to mention that there might be improvments that reduce or eliminate TCA that would allow them to continue with cork. Corks will not go away unless they literally become extinct. My opinion. "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > >> I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, >> Lafite Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... >> >> Do ya really think you will? > > At least my hopes are that those wineries offering en-primeur or > mailing-list sales will make the offer of choice - that would make > everybody happe and offend nobody. > > Oh, yes: I'd even be prepared to pay a small premium for screwcaps on > my clarets. > > M. > (Completely disappointed by a magnum 1961 Gruaud-Larose a fortnight > ago - a wedding gift back in 1992 [and, of course, the only one > bottle] - with TCA spoilage.) |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> I think that will happen on the less expensive wines, white > wines, but the top houses will alway provide with cork as its > the romance and tradition and maintain old word charm. So I won't buy them anymore, it's as simple as this. "romance and tradition and ... old word charm" is just plain BS when I open a 43 year old supposedly superbe claret from an outstandig years- and it corks. I, for me, will not support this anymore. M. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> I think that will happen on the less expensive wines, white > wines, but the top houses will alway provide with cork as its > the romance and tradition and maintain old word charm. So I won't buy them anymore, it's as simple as this. "romance and tradition and ... old word charm" is just plain BS when I open a 43 year old supposedly superbe claret from an outstandig years- and it corks. I, for me, will not support this anymore. M. |
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Plus how are you going to make a living opening wine at table...looks funny
for a sommolier to open a bottle of wine like a screw off coke cap. Like many said in other industries that for example that the internet would put brick and morter conventional retailers out of business---that did not happen. Many thought with the inventions of the VCR that places that rent movies would put Movie Theaters out of business since the VCR rental was $3.00 and it cost a family of 4 $20.00 to go to a movie without popcorn/coke that theaters would close. Just the opposite happened. With the increase in venues it made it more possible to economic profit to be increase. Thus there was an increase in Movies made, theaters here in USA are now averaging 16 per theater, and the after market rentals and not DVDs make tons of money. These two examples show that at much as people think industries will change they don't. I do think that enhancing wine quality might one day be demonstrated by screw caps but that does not mean that corks will go away. Also there is no evidence I have seen that says a real fine wine will age as well with a screw cap as it does with a cork. Also...how much TCA really occurs from the cork vs. production and storage as what occured at BV. Sorry...I would hold to cork still on long term wines. As far as the daily drinking it is fine either way. Sorry. "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > >> I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, >> Lafite Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... >> >> Do ya really think you will? > > At least my hopes are that those wineries offering en-primeur or > mailing-list sales will make the offer of choice - that would make > everybody happe and offend nobody. > > Oh, yes: I'd even be prepared to pay a small premium for screwcaps on > my clarets. > > M. > (Completely disappointed by a magnum 1961 Gruaud-Larose a fortnight > ago - a wedding gift back in 1992 [and, of course, the only one > bottle] - with TCA spoilage.) |
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Corrected spelling and wording sorry for post below---sent early by
accident. "Richard Neidich" > wrote in message link.net... Plus how are you going to make a living opening wine at table...looks funny for a sommolier to open a bottle of wine like a screw off coke cap. Like many said in other industries for example that the internet would put brick and morter conventional retailers out of business---that did not happen. Many thought with the inventions of the VCR that places that rent movies would put Movie Theaters out of business since the VCR rental was $3.00 and it cost a family of 4 $20.00 to go to a movie without popcorn/coke that theaters would close. Just the opposite happened. With the increase in venues it made it more possible to produce economic profit to be increased. Thus there was an increase in Movies made, theaters here in USA are now averaging 16 per theater, and the after market rentals and now DVDs make tons of money. These two examples show that at much as people think industries will change they don't. I do think that enhancing wine quality might one day be demonstrated by screw caps but that does not mean that corks will go away. Also there is no evidence I have seen that says a real fine red wine will age as well with a screw cap as it does with a cork. Also...how much TCA really occurs from the cork vs. production and storage as what occured at BV. Sorry...I would hold to cork still on long term wines. As far as the daily drinking it is fine either way. Sorry. > > > "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message > ... >> "Richard Neidich" > wrote: >> >>> I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, >>> Lafite Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... >>> >>> Do ya really think you will? >> >> At least my hopes are that those wineries offering en-primeur or >> mailing-list sales will make the offer of choice - that would make >> everybody happe and offend nobody. >> >> Oh, yes: I'd even be prepared to pay a small premium for screwcaps on >> my clarets. >> >> M. >> (Completely disappointed by a magnum 1961 Gruaud-Larose a fortnight >> ago - a wedding gift back in 1992 [and, of course, the only one >> bottle] - with TCA spoilage.) > > |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> looks funny for a sommolier to open a bottle of wine like a > screw off coke cap. I don't give a damn of what it looks like. I pay for the wine, not for the ceremony. This holds true even more when the old bottle comes out of my cellar after 10, 20 or 40 years of cellaring, when it's cork tainted, spoils the evening, and, furthermore, won't be replaced by anyone. I have spoken to *many* sommeliers in high-end restaurants here in AUstria - and they all would rather have screwcaps now. Terry Thiese talked to a restaurant owner here in Austria (Klaus Wagner from Landhaus Bacher in Mautern, Wachau) who is known to be furiously opposite to screwcaps: "That's like serving the elaborated cuisine of my wife on paper party trays!". "Point taken", Thiese replied, "but what if your fine china spoiled 15 percent of all dishes?" Screwcaps today have a proven track record of 30+ years - that's really enough for me to take my decision as a responsible consumer. I hate to be patronized by producers who tell me "It has been good for 200 years, so it is good for you!" Don't misunderstand me: I don't advocate for screwcaps on every bottle - let the corks dorks have fun with current spoilage rates -, but le *me* have the choice of closure when I pre-order and pre-pay the wine. I don't know why this position - that in no way infringes the rights and the position of cork adepts - is so difficult to grasp. M. |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> True...but you don't find them on Chateau Montelena, Phelps Insignia, Caymus > Special Select, Heitz Marthas Vineyard..... > > I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, Lafite > Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... > > Do ya really think you will? And one of Parker's other predictions was that the French will lose market share because of inability to change. |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> I think that will happen on the less expensive wines, white wines, but the > top houses will alway provide with cork as its the romance and tradition and > maintain old word charm. > > Not to mention that there might be improvments that reduce or eliminate TCA > that would allow them to continue with cork. > > Corks will not go away unless they literally become extinct. The point has been made over and over that the cork producers have not invested in technology to try to fix the TCA problem. A year ago I would have said that the percentage of corked wines was between 7 and 8%, but now 15% seems to be the figure that everyone is using. How can the cork industry not respond. |
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With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out the
china over a few bad meals. I do think if you preorder wine on futures and you want a different closure before bottling you should be able to have your choice. Any manufacturing should be able to do that NOW. However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only comes from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. Sorry again. 200 years of history is a good start. Stelvins on Gallo of Sonoma is not a problem for me however. Also not on futures if we wish them different. And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > >> looks funny for a sommolier to open a bottle of wine like a >> screw off coke cap. > > I don't give a damn of what it looks like. I pay for the wine, not > for the ceremony. This holds true even more when the old bottle > comes out of my cellar after 10, 20 or 40 years of cellaring, when > it's cork tainted, spoils the evening, and, furthermore, won't be > replaced by anyone. > > I have spoken to *many* sommeliers in high-end restaurants here in > AUstria - and they all would rather have screwcaps now. > > Terry Thiese talked to a restaurant owner here in Austria (Klaus > Wagner from Landhaus Bacher in Mautern, Wachau) who is known to be > furiously opposite to screwcaps: "That's like serving the > elaborated cuisine of my wife on paper party trays!". "Point > taken", Thiese replied, "but what if your fine china spoiled 15 > percent of all dishes?" > > Screwcaps today have a proven track record of 30+ years - that's > really enough for me to take my decision as a responsible > consumer. I hate to be patronized by producers who tell me "It has > been good for 200 years, so it is good for you!" > > Don't misunderstand me: I don't advocate for screwcaps on every > bottle - let the corks dorks have fun with current spoilage rates > -, but le *me* have the choice of closure when I pre-order and > pre-pay the wine. > > I don't know why this position - that in no way infringes the > rights and the position of cork adepts - is so difficult to grasp. > > M. |
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They are losing market share now and it has little to do with screw caps.
Perhaps making this change would only make it worse. "Bill Loftin" > wrote in message news:mE_0d.3346$ZP.2485@trnddc05... > Richard Neidich wrote: > >> True...but you don't find them on Chateau Montelena, Phelps Insignia, >> Caymus Special Select, Heitz Marthas Vineyard..... >> >> I don't think you will find them on Chateau Margaux, Haut Brion, Lafite >> Rothchild, Mouton Rothchild... >> >> Do ya really think you will? > > And one of Parker's other predictions was that the French will lose market > share because of inability to change. > |
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"Richard Neidich" > skrev i melding hlink.net... > With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out the > china over a few bad meals. > You didn't get it. The wine was not bad, for a start, it became bad from the cork... Had there been some mysterious flaw in some of your china plastes making delicious food go bad I'm sure you would at least throw away the affected plates. Fortunately, I seem to be quite TCA insensitive so this is not as pressing a problem for me as it seems to be for Michael and quite a few others. You are perhaps not very sensitive to TCA, are you? Anders |
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Not too sensitive. To TCA or anything else :-)
That said you are missing my point. There was a Napa Winery that had high levels of TCA and it had NOTHING to do with the cork. See attached article: http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Da...5,1841,00.html My point is if you don't know where all the TCA comes from its to easy to blame the corks. Its not the only souce of contamination and perhaps todays outbreak is not all cork related. Did I explain myself clearly enough this time? "Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message ... > > "Richard Neidich" > skrev i melding > hlink.net... >> With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out > the >> china over a few bad meals. >> > You didn't get it. The wine was not bad, for a start, it became bad from > the cork... > Had there been some mysterious flaw in some of your china plastes making > delicious food go bad I'm sure you would at least throw away the affected > plates. > > Fortunately, I seem to be quite TCA insensitive so this is not as pressing > a > problem for me as it seems to be for Michael and quite a few others. > You are perhaps not very sensitive to TCA, are you? > Anders > > |
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Not too sensitive. To TCA or anything else :-)
That said you are missing my point. There was a Napa Winery that had high levels of TCA and it had NOTHING to do with the cork. See attached article: http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Da...5,1841,00.html My point is if you don't know where all the TCA comes from its to easy to blame the corks. Its not the only souce of contamination and perhaps todays outbreak is not all cork related. Did I explain myself clearly enough this time? "Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message ... > > "Richard Neidich" > skrev i melding > hlink.net... >> With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out > the >> china over a few bad meals. >> > You didn't get it. The wine was not bad, for a start, it became bad from > the cork... > Had there been some mysterious flaw in some of your china plastes making > delicious food go bad I'm sure you would at least throw away the affected > plates. > > Fortunately, I seem to be quite TCA insensitive so this is not as pressing > a > problem for me as it seems to be for Michael and quite a few others. > You are perhaps not very sensitive to TCA, are you? > Anders > > |
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Salut/Hi Richard Neidich,
le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- >With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out the >china over a few bad meals. Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find it inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's hesitation. >However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries with severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to improve their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more common, masks the cellar related problems. >I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only comes >from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. One case in how many? > And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to accept, is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It may be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot of talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing that has been carried out. -- All the Best Ian Hoare http://www.souvigne.com mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> Not too sensitive. To TCA or anything else :-) > That said you are missing my point. There was a Napa Winery that had high > levels of TCA and it had NOTHING to do with the cork. > See attached article: > http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Da...5,1841,00.html > My point is if you don't know where all the TCA comes from its to easy to > blame the corks. Its not the only souce of contamination and perhaps todays > outbreak is not all cork related. I just reposted the story about BV about a month ago. We are all aware that TCA can get into wine from other places. If you can absolutely positively get rid of 15% of the TCA contamination in wine by doing away with corks, why are you against it. |
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I am a skeptic that it will reduce the TCA by the amounts stated. Secondly
I think it might have an impact on aging of fine wines. 1) I have no problem with the screw caps being placed on inexpensive everyday drinking wines. Wines you would not typically lay down in cellar for more than 2-3 years. 2) Secondly, I have no problem with someone that does order in futures requesting his closure be of a different type---I am sure wineries can accomodate that when bottling. 3) While admittedly I am not that sensitive to TCA I can detect it. It is a lot less than is published in this group. I think its an industry conspiracy. That said if it 100% guaranteed no aging issues, No TCA and provided a money back guarantee if 15-40 years from now the wine was never bad....I would say go ahead. "Bill Loftin" > wrote in message news:ah41d.6454$%O5.2769@trnddc07... > Richard Neidich wrote: >> Not too sensitive. To TCA or anything else :-) That said you are missing >> my point. There was a Napa Winery that had high levels of TCA and it had >> NOTHING to do with the cork. >> See attached article: >> http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Da...5,1841,00.html >> My point is if you don't know where all the TCA comes from its to easy to >> blame the corks. Its not the only souce of contamination and perhaps >> todays outbreak is not all cork related. > > I just reposted the story about BV about a month ago. We are all > aware that TCA can get into wine from other places. If you can > absolutely positively get rid of 15% of the TCA contamination in > wine by doing away with corks, why are you against it. |
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I think he missed the most obvious change-he will no longer be the most
influential wine critic in the world because scores of followers will find that the low acid fruit bombs he urged them to buy and hold for years have gone over the hill. |
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:47:34 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> wrote: >Fortunately, I seem to be quite TCA insensitive so this is not as pressing a >problem for me as it seems to be for Michael and quite a few others. >You are perhaps not very sensitive to TCA, are you? This comment has been made several times in this forum, i.e. someone remarking on being "fortunate" because of his relative insensitivity to TCA. To me this misses the point. I don't know where I stand on a scale of olfactory sensitivity to the odor of TCA. I suspect that I am more sensitive than the average person but I know others who are more sensitive than I am. But the worst thing about TCA is that, as bad as the smell is, its worst effect is that it destroys the fruit flavors in wine. On several occasions, I have opened a bottle, sniffed it, and detected no TCA. But as I start to consume the bottle, I begin to realize that there is simply nothing there. No fruit, a "flat" feeling on my tongue, and a bad aftertaste (if I get that far), to mention just a few unpleasant sensory perceptions. At that point I will generally recork the bottle and take it to one of my more sensitive friends, who will invariably pronounce it corked. They can smell the TCA but I can't no matter how hard I try. I agree that TCA can get into wine by a variety of routes but, with a few (but significant) exceptions, e.g. the BV problems, I believe most of it comes from individual corks. I freely admit that I am unable to cite any empirical evidence to back up this assertion. Vino |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> I am a skeptic that it [sc. screw-caps] will reduce the TCA by > the amounts stated. Richard, I am a professional wine writer tasting some 3000 to 4000 wines a year. I know what I am speaking about when I say that 5 to 10 percent of the wines have obvious, and 20 to 30 percent hidden TCA/other cork taint problems. These figures *do* hold, since they are immediately proven by back-üp bottles and/or memory/TNs of having tastes wines side by side just a few days back. Sorry, but your point is just "head in the sand". M. |
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Vino > wrote:
> On several occasions, I have opened a bottle, sniffed it, and > detected no TCA. But as I start to consume the bottle, I begin > to realize that there is simply nothing there. No fruit, a > "flat" feeling on my tongue, and a bad aftertaste (if I get that > far), to mention just a few unpleasant sensory perceptions. At > that point I will generally recork the bottle and take it to one > of my more sensitive friends, who will invariably pronounce it > corked. They can smell the TCA but I can't no matter how hard I > try. Anders, cork taint is not reduced to TCA odour. For me it is absolutely obvious that, when I open a back-up bottle of the same wine the cork *must* have been the reason. This is supported by the fact that practically no bottle variation whatsoever has ever been reported with wines under screw or crown caps. M. |
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Vino > wrote:
> On several occasions, I have opened a bottle, sniffed it, and > detected no TCA. But as I start to consume the bottle, I begin > to realize that there is simply nothing there. No fruit, a > "flat" feeling on my tongue, and a bad aftertaste (if I get that > far), to mention just a few unpleasant sensory perceptions. At > that point I will generally recork the bottle and take it to one > of my more sensitive friends, who will invariably pronounce it > corked. They can smell the TCA but I can't no matter how hard I > try. Anders, cork taint is not reduced to TCA odour. For me it is absolutely obvious that, when I open a back-up bottle of the same wine the cork *must* have been the reason. This is supported by the fact that practically no bottle variation whatsoever has ever been reported with wines under screw or crown caps. M. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in > wines with Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? As to my knowledge, there never has been any TCA problem under stelvin. Since you insist on your "winery-affected-by-TCA" argument: With the numbers of wines tasted in my life approaching six figures, I have yet to come around a batch of wines affected by winery-imparted TCA. What you don't seem to get is that winery infection by TCA is infinitesimally rarer than TCA infection (and random oxidation, and and, and ...) by corks. M. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in > wines with Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? As to my knowledge, there never has been any TCA problem under stelvin. Since you insist on your "winery-affected-by-TCA" argument: With the numbers of wines tasted in my life approaching six figures, I have yet to come around a batch of wines affected by winery-imparted TCA. What you don't seem to get is that winery infection by TCA is infinitesimally rarer than TCA infection (and random oxidation, and and, and ...) by corks. M. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> 200 years of history is a good start. But with obvious taint rates of 5 to 10 percent, and less obvious taint rates of 20 to 30 percent, the performance is pretty bad. I prefer a solution with only 30+ years of performance and zero taint rate. M. |
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When and where did Parker make these prognostications? On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:37:30 GMT, Bill Loftin > wrote: >The three tier system will collaspe in the US >Alt.food.wine will be a main stream source of info >The great wines will be bid on in the global market >France will suffer from the global market and their obsession > with tradition >Screw caps will be on 95% of all bottles >Spain will be the rising star of the wine world >Malbec will make a big splash >US wine market will be dominated by Central Coast wines >Southern Italy will ascend >Unoaked wines will finally become popular > >Not very many surprizes there. I can see the wholesalers >reacting to this immediately to preserve their three tier >system. >Bill -- ================================================= Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida? Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE ================================================= |
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When and where did Parker make these prognostications? On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:37:30 GMT, Bill Loftin > wrote: >The three tier system will collaspe in the US >Alt.food.wine will be a main stream source of info >The great wines will be bid on in the global market >France will suffer from the global market and their obsession > with tradition >Screw caps will be on 95% of all bottles >Spain will be the rising star of the wine world >Malbec will make a big splash >US wine market will be dominated by Central Coast wines >Southern Italy will ascend >Unoaked wines will finally become popular > >Not very many surprizes there. I can see the wholesalers >reacting to this immediately to preserve their three tier >system. >Bill -- ================================================= Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida? Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE ================================================= |
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OK. I agree that 95% of all wines are bought and drank withing days. But
this group is not likely in that venue. Therefore I would contend that the first growths of France, Napa, Italy, Spain will be the VERY last to make these changes to Screw caps. Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it really does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in this thread indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to exist. I woud contend that we actually don't know how rare that really is. You are willing to accept that it is the cork primarily. I am not there yet. Someone said that the cork producers have provided no technology to reduce / eliminate TCA. Thay may be true. But growers rarely would come up with advancements. If this was the problem that is cited here that would be a great business to go into. We could all get rich!!!! I few years ago we had an issue with infestation reports in my food product that was in the retail stores. We had the consumers send back the packages and we called experts in. The type of Weevil was known only to two types of foods. Blackeye Peas and in select cases Flour products. We removed Blackeyes immediately from the product and replaced with another acceptable bean. Then we kepted getting reports of infestation that were in packages after that date. So we sent those back...did a thorough check of our facility and found not problems. Checked our ingredients and found no problems. We raised the alert status to bring in more experts who suggested varying methods inside the plant that we could do better but still found not problems. In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average in good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our products and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of infestation even though they could have occured in the consumers home kitchen or retail grocery store in terms of cross contamination. Removing Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most of all TCA issues are not like the BV issue. BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell the truth. Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up the assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't the majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they know then they have no one to blame if TCA remains? "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message ... > Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, > > le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- > >>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>the >>china over a few bad meals. > > Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of > the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find > it > inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire > service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only > crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap > and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's hesitation. > >>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? > > VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries > with > severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to improve > their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more > common, > masks the cellar related problems. > >>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only comes >>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. > > One case in how many? > >> And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. > > I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few > days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE > proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. > > What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to > accept, > is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown > caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It > may > be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot of > talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing that > has been carried out. > > > -- > All the Best > Ian Hoare > http://www.souvigne.com > mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
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OK. I agree that 95% of all wines are bought and drank withing days. But
this group is not likely in that venue. Therefore I would contend that the first growths of France, Napa, Italy, Spain will be the VERY last to make these changes to Screw caps. Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it really does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in this thread indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to exist. I woud contend that we actually don't know how rare that really is. You are willing to accept that it is the cork primarily. I am not there yet. Someone said that the cork producers have provided no technology to reduce / eliminate TCA. Thay may be true. But growers rarely would come up with advancements. If this was the problem that is cited here that would be a great business to go into. We could all get rich!!!! I few years ago we had an issue with infestation reports in my food product that was in the retail stores. We had the consumers send back the packages and we called experts in. The type of Weevil was known only to two types of foods. Blackeye Peas and in select cases Flour products. We removed Blackeyes immediately from the product and replaced with another acceptable bean. Then we kepted getting reports of infestation that were in packages after that date. So we sent those back...did a thorough check of our facility and found not problems. Checked our ingredients and found no problems. We raised the alert status to bring in more experts who suggested varying methods inside the plant that we could do better but still found not problems. In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average in good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our products and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of infestation even though they could have occured in the consumers home kitchen or retail grocery store in terms of cross contamination. Removing Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most of all TCA issues are not like the BV issue. BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell the truth. Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up the assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't the majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they know then they have no one to blame if TCA remains? "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message ... > Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, > > le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- > >>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>the >>china over a few bad meals. > > Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of > the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find > it > inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire > service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only > crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap > and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's hesitation. > >>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? > > VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries > with > severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to improve > their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more > common, > masks the cellar related problems. > >>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only comes >>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. > > One case in how many? > >> And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. > > I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few > days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE > proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. > > What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to > accept, > is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown > caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It > may > be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot of > talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing that > has been carried out. > > > -- > All the Best > Ian Hoare > http://www.souvigne.com > mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
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Sorry that is 2 million cases of my product which is 24 million packages.
"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message . net... > OK. I agree that 95% of all wines are bought and drank withing days. But > this group is not likely in that venue. > > Therefore I would contend that the first growths of France, Napa, Italy, > Spain will be the VERY last to make these changes to Screw caps. > > Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it really > does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in this thread > indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to exist. I woud contend that > we actually don't know how rare that really is. You are willing to accept > that it is the cork primarily. I am not there yet. > > Someone said that the cork producers have provided no technology to reduce > / eliminate TCA. Thay may be true. But growers rarely would come up with > advancements. If this was the problem that is cited here that would be a > great business to go into. We could all get rich!!!! > > I few years ago we had an issue with infestation reports in my food > product that was in the retail stores. We had the consumers send back the > packages and we called experts in. The type of Weevil was known only to > two types of foods. Blackeye Peas and in select cases Flour products. > We removed Blackeyes immediately from the product and replaced with > another acceptable bean. Then we kepted getting reports of infestation > that were in packages after that date. So we sent those back...did a > thorough check of our facility and found not problems. Checked our > ingredients and found no problems. We raised the alert status to bring in > more experts who suggested varying methods inside the plant that we could > do better but still found not problems. > > In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average in > good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our > products and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of > infestation even though they could have occured in the consumers home > kitchen or retail grocery store in terms of cross contamination. > > Removing Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most > of all TCA issues are not like the BV issue. > > BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell the > truth. > > Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up > the assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't > the majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they > know then they have no one to blame if TCA remains? > > > > > "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message > ... >> Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, >> >> le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- >> >>>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>>the >>>china over a few bad meals. >> >> Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of >> the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find >> it >> inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire >> service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only >> crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap >> and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's >> hesitation. >> >>>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? >> >> VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries >> with >> severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to >> improve >> their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more >> common, >> masks the cellar related problems. >> >>>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only >>>comes >>>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. >> >> One case in how many? >> >>> And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. >> >> I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few >> days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE >> proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. >> >> What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to >> accept, >> is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown >> caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It >> may >> be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot >> of >> talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing >> that >> has been carried out. >> >> >> -- >> All the Best >> Ian Hoare >> http://www.souvigne.com >> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website > > |
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Sorry that is 2 million cases of my product which is 24 million packages.
"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message . net... > OK. I agree that 95% of all wines are bought and drank withing days. But > this group is not likely in that venue. > > Therefore I would contend that the first growths of France, Napa, Italy, > Spain will be the VERY last to make these changes to Screw caps. > > Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it really > does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in this thread > indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to exist. I woud contend that > we actually don't know how rare that really is. You are willing to accept > that it is the cork primarily. I am not there yet. > > Someone said that the cork producers have provided no technology to reduce > / eliminate TCA. Thay may be true. But growers rarely would come up with > advancements. If this was the problem that is cited here that would be a > great business to go into. We could all get rich!!!! > > I few years ago we had an issue with infestation reports in my food > product that was in the retail stores. We had the consumers send back the > packages and we called experts in. The type of Weevil was known only to > two types of foods. Blackeye Peas and in select cases Flour products. > We removed Blackeyes immediately from the product and replaced with > another acceptable bean. Then we kepted getting reports of infestation > that were in packages after that date. So we sent those back...did a > thorough check of our facility and found not problems. Checked our > ingredients and found no problems. We raised the alert status to bring in > more experts who suggested varying methods inside the plant that we could > do better but still found not problems. > > In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average in > good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our > products and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of > infestation even though they could have occured in the consumers home > kitchen or retail grocery store in terms of cross contamination. > > Removing Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most > of all TCA issues are not like the BV issue. > > BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell the > truth. > > Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up > the assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't > the majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they > know then they have no one to blame if TCA remains? > > > > > "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message > ... >> Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, >> >> le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- >> >>>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>>the >>>china over a few bad meals. >> >> Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of >> the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find >> it >> inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire >> service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only >> crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap >> and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's >> hesitation. >> >>>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? >> >> VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries >> with >> severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to >> improve >> their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more >> common, >> masks the cellar related problems. >> >>>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only >>>comes >>>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. >> >> One case in how many? >> >>> And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. >> >> I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few >> days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE >> proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. >> >> What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to >> accept, >> is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown >> caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It >> may >> be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot >> of >> talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing >> that >> has been carried out. >> >> >> -- >> All the Best >> Ian Hoare >> http://www.souvigne.com >> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website > > |
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Leo Bueno > wrote:
> When and where did Parker make these prognostications? <http://www.foodandwine.com/preview/i...ctID=B3B6C0BB- 3157-47AE-9347AFE4A86EF60F> or <http://snipurl.com/90ie> M. |
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