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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
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Dick Lamb wrote:

> On point for me. I was invited to a trade tasting last night and sampled
> about 25 wines -- two of the bottles were corked! Both bottles were about
> half empty when I got there?!? The people pouring quickly replaced both
> bottles and the replacements were fine. Seems a lot of people ITB must not
> be sensative to TCA!


I had that same experience at a ZAP tasting last year. It would not be
so surprising at a public tasting but to find bottles half empty before
anyone says anything is strange or that are a lot of people that are
totally insensitive.
  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
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Dick Lamb wrote:

> On point for me. I was invited to a trade tasting last night and sampled
> about 25 wines -- two of the bottles were corked! Both bottles were about
> half empty when I got there?!? The people pouring quickly replaced both
> bottles and the replacements were fine. Seems a lot of people ITB must not
> be sensative to TCA!


I had that same experience at a ZAP tasting last year. It would not be
so surprising at a public tasting but to find bottles half empty before
anyone says anything is strange or that are a lot of people that are
totally insensitive.
  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
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Dick Lamb wrote:

> On point for me. I was invited to a trade tasting last night and sampled
> about 25 wines -- two of the bottles were corked! Both bottles were about
> half empty when I got there?!? The people pouring quickly replaced both
> bottles and the replacements were fine. Seems a lot of people ITB must not
> be sensative to TCA!


I had that same experience at a ZAP tasting last year. It would not be
so surprising at a public tasting but to find bottles half empty before
anyone says anything is strange or that are a lot of people that are
totally insensitive.
  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
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"Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding
news:wkI1d.5900$MS1.2244@trnddc02...
> Dick Lamb wrote:
>
> ...that are a lot of people that are
> totally insensitive.

Come to think of it, we are not insensitive at all, it is you that are
oversensitive... After all, the majority is the norm.
:-)
Anders


  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
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"Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding
news:wkI1d.5900$MS1.2244@trnddc02...
> Dick Lamb wrote:
>
> ...that are a lot of people that are
> totally insensitive.

Come to think of it, we are not insensitive at all, it is you that are
oversensitive... After all, the majority is the norm.
:-)
Anders




  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
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"Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding
news:wkI1d.5900$MS1.2244@trnddc02...
> Dick Lamb wrote:
>
> ...that are a lot of people that are
> totally insensitive.

Come to think of it, we are not insensitive at all, it is you that are
oversensitive... After all, the majority is the norm.
:-)
Anders


  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
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Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> "Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding
> news:wkI1d.5900$MS1.2244@trnddc02...
>
>>Dick Lamb wrote:
>>
>>...that are a lot of people that are
>>totally insensitive.

>
> Come to think of it, we are not insensitive at all, it is you that are
> oversensitive... After all, the majority is the norm.
> :-)
> Anders
>
>

You are right. Now how do I join your group.
  #88 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
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Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> "Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding
> news:wkI1d.5900$MS1.2244@trnddc02...
>
>>Dick Lamb wrote:
>>
>>...that are a lot of people that are
>>totally insensitive.

>
> Come to think of it, we are not insensitive at all, it is you that are
> oversensitive... After all, the majority is the norm.
> :-)
> Anders
>
>

You are right. Now how do I join your group.
  #89 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> "Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding
> news:wkI1d.5900$MS1.2244@trnddc02...
>
>>Dick Lamb wrote:
>>
>>...that are a lot of people that are
>>totally insensitive.

>
> Come to think of it, we are not insensitive at all, it is you that are
> oversensitive... After all, the majority is the norm.
> :-)
> Anders
>
>

You are right. Now how do I join your group.
  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
JEP
 
Posts: n/a
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Michael Pronay > wrote in message >...
> (JEP) wrote:
>
> > Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and
> > telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork
> > related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all
> > reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery.

>
> Yesterday evening: Tasting 27 wines from Styria, Austria, from 27
> different producers (25 dry whites, 1 red, 1 sweet TBA). 1 wine
> oxidized (obviously leaking cork), back-up bottle heavily TCA'ed,
> third bottle brillant. 4 other wines less than brillant, back-up
> bottles beautiful. I leave it to your maths to do the statistics.
>
> I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones
> you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou
> and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in
> whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit
> scalping) *is* random.
>
> At least I can support my assertions with a statistically valid
> number of samples per year.
>
> M.


One of the places we disagree is that you assert that two bottles of
the same wine, one being tainted and one not, proves that the problem
is with the cork. In my experience, that's just not the case. There
are many other factors that can explain this. Multiple bottles of the
same wine known to be contaminated by TCA at the winery and lab tests
indicated some bottles showed taint and others didn't.


Andy


  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
JEP
 
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Michael Pronay > wrote in message >...
> (JEP) wrote:
>
> > Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and
> > telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork
> > related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all
> > reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery.

>
> Yesterday evening: Tasting 27 wines from Styria, Austria, from 27
> different producers (25 dry whites, 1 red, 1 sweet TBA). 1 wine
> oxidized (obviously leaking cork), back-up bottle heavily TCA'ed,
> third bottle brillant. 4 other wines less than brillant, back-up
> bottles beautiful. I leave it to your maths to do the statistics.
>
> I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones
> you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou
> and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in
> whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit
> scalping) *is* random.
>
> At least I can support my assertions with a statistically valid
> number of samples per year.
>
> M.


One of the places we disagree is that you assert that two bottles of
the same wine, one being tainted and one not, proves that the problem
is with the cork. In my experience, that's just not the case. There
are many other factors that can explain this. Multiple bottles of the
same wine known to be contaminated by TCA at the winery and lab tests
indicated some bottles showed taint and others didn't.


Andy
  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Neidich
 
Posts: n/a
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Jep, out of curiosity can you explain what other factors could be that would
cause this kind of bottle variation within a case. I assume M. Pronay is
likely correct wth regards to TCA when its an occasional and on limited
bottles...but what are the other factos you refer to?

Thanks.
"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> Michael Pronay > wrote in message
> >...
>> (JEP) wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and
>> > telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork
>> > related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all
>> > reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery.

>>
>> Yesterday evening: Tasting 27 wines from Styria, Austria, from 27
>> different producers (25 dry whites, 1 red, 1 sweet TBA). 1 wine
>> oxidized (obviously leaking cork), back-up bottle heavily TCA'ed,
>> third bottle brillant. 4 other wines less than brillant, back-up
>> bottles beautiful. I leave it to your maths to do the statistics.
>>
>> I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones
>> you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou
>> and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in
>> whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit
>> scalping) *is* random.
>>
>> At least I can support my assertions with a statistically valid
>> number of samples per year.
>>
>> M.

>
> One of the places we disagree is that you assert that two bottles of
> the same wine, one being tainted and one not, proves that the problem
> is with the cork. In my experience, that's just not the case. There
> are many other factors that can explain this. Multiple bottles of the
> same wine known to be contaminated by TCA at the winery and lab tests
> indicated some bottles showed taint and others didn't.
>
>
> Andy



  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Neidich
 
Posts: n/a
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Jep, out of curiosity can you explain what other factors could be that would
cause this kind of bottle variation within a case. I assume M. Pronay is
likely correct wth regards to TCA when its an occasional and on limited
bottles...but what are the other factos you refer to?

Thanks.
"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> Michael Pronay > wrote in message
> >...
>> (JEP) wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and
>> > telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork
>> > related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all
>> > reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery.

>>
>> Yesterday evening: Tasting 27 wines from Styria, Austria, from 27
>> different producers (25 dry whites, 1 red, 1 sweet TBA). 1 wine
>> oxidized (obviously leaking cork), back-up bottle heavily TCA'ed,
>> third bottle brillant. 4 other wines less than brillant, back-up
>> bottles beautiful. I leave it to your maths to do the statistics.
>>
>> I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones
>> you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou
>> and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in
>> whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit
>> scalping) *is* random.
>>
>> At least I can support my assertions with a statistically valid
>> number of samples per year.
>>
>> M.

>
> One of the places we disagree is that you assert that two bottles of
> the same wine, one being tainted and one not, proves that the problem
> is with the cork. In my experience, that's just not the case. There
> are many other factors that can explain this. Multiple bottles of the
> same wine known to be contaminated by TCA at the winery and lab tests
> indicated some bottles showed taint and others didn't.
>
>
> Andy



  #94 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Rosenberg
 
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Sung to the tune of Don Ho's Tiny Bubbles

Schmutzy barrels screw up the wine
polluted water in the hose
make it less then fine
Too much sulphur make me want to drink milk
Tiny bubbles of bacteria makes such a stink.............



--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Joe Rosenberg" > wrote in message
...
> Bordeaux, especially the top flight wineries will never abandon cork as

long
> as the wines are sought after in the world market. I suspect the same

goes
> for Burgundy, and the Rhone. There will be traditional cork supporters
> throughout other countries where cork is equated to prestige/romance etc.
>
> So if the problem is too little high quality cork and/or expensive
> technologies to insure reliability; increased use of Stelvins, screwtops

and
> other closures will reduce demand for cork and thus a diminution in the

need
> for inferior cork products to satisfy the market. So quality control
> measures will weed out the elements that contribute the use of poor
> material.
>
> So my prediction is less and more expensive cork but a higher percentage

of
> reliability.
>
> Only if improving cork production takes on the objections, quasi-moral and
> religious, similar to conducting of stem cell research, will the quality

of
> corks remain the same or decline.
>
> By G-d and Ashcroft we may not reduce incidents of Alzheimer's, AIDS, or
> cancer but when coherent we won't be bitching about a cork damaged bottle

of
> Chateau Ephemeral in 2015.
>
> --
> Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
> "Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
> .net...
> > And are they still doing screw caps?
> >
> >
> > "larkin1734" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Bill Loftin wrote:
> > >> Richard Neidich wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> yada, yada, yada

>
>



  #95 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Rosenberg
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sung to the tune of Don Ho's Tiny Bubbles

Schmutzy barrels screw up the wine
polluted water in the hose
make it less then fine
Too much sulphur make me want to drink milk
Tiny bubbles of bacteria makes such a stink.............



--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Joe Rosenberg" > wrote in message
...
> Bordeaux, especially the top flight wineries will never abandon cork as

long
> as the wines are sought after in the world market. I suspect the same

goes
> for Burgundy, and the Rhone. There will be traditional cork supporters
> throughout other countries where cork is equated to prestige/romance etc.
>
> So if the problem is too little high quality cork and/or expensive
> technologies to insure reliability; increased use of Stelvins, screwtops

and
> other closures will reduce demand for cork and thus a diminution in the

need
> for inferior cork products to satisfy the market. So quality control
> measures will weed out the elements that contribute the use of poor
> material.
>
> So my prediction is less and more expensive cork but a higher percentage

of
> reliability.
>
> Only if improving cork production takes on the objections, quasi-moral and
> religious, similar to conducting of stem cell research, will the quality

of
> corks remain the same or decline.
>
> By G-d and Ashcroft we may not reduce incidents of Alzheimer's, AIDS, or
> cancer but when coherent we won't be bitching about a cork damaged bottle

of
> Chateau Ephemeral in 2015.
>
> --
> Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
> "Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
> .net...
> > And are they still doing screw caps?
> >
> >
> > "larkin1734" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Bill Loftin wrote:
> > >> Richard Neidich wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> yada, yada, yada

>
>





  #96 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
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On 13 Sep 2004 06:28:34 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
>
>> I am a skeptic that it [sc. screw-caps] will reduce the TCA by
>> the amounts stated.

>
>Richard, I am a professional wine writer tasting some 3000 to 4000
>wines a year. I know what I am speaking about when I say that 5 to
>10 percent of the wines have obvious, and 20 to 30 percent hidden
>TCA/other cork taint problems. These figures *do* hold, since they
>are immediately proven by back-üp bottles and/or memory/TNs of
>having tastes wines side by side just a few days back.
>
>Sorry, but your point is just "head in the sand".
>

I support Michael's general position here that most TCA problems are
caused by randomly tainted corks. I take no position on his particular
figures but I have no data to support or refute them, and I do not
question them. As I have also stated before here, I believe that there
are other routes that TCA can find its way into wine. Some situations
are obvious, e.g. the BV problems. Others are much less so because
they involve much smaller wineries and don't get the (undesirable)
publicity that BV did. Perhaps the release of large batches of wine
contaminated with TCA from sources other than individual corks can
skew the overall figures, but somehow I doubt that.

My job often entails opening numerous bottles of the same wine for
specific events. Depending on who the attendees are at the event, i.e.
how knowledgable they are on wine, I may or may not delegate this job.
When it is important that the wines served show well, I do the job
myself. The bottles involved are almost certainly from the same lot of
wine, bottled probably, at most, a few minutes apart. When, under
these conditions, I occasionally encounter a corked bottle, I can only
attribute this to a random event involving a particular cork. White
wines, which are typically opened at a temperature well below what
they will eventually be served at, are particularly difficult, and
more than a few have slipped by me. It should also be noted that, at
such events, I very often have others around to offer a second opinion
on a specific wine.

Vino
  #97 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
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Default

On 13 Sep 2004 06:28:34 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
>
>> I am a skeptic that it [sc. screw-caps] will reduce the TCA by
>> the amounts stated.

>
>Richard, I am a professional wine writer tasting some 3000 to 4000
>wines a year. I know what I am speaking about when I say that 5 to
>10 percent of the wines have obvious, and 20 to 30 percent hidden
>TCA/other cork taint problems. These figures *do* hold, since they
>are immediately proven by back-üp bottles and/or memory/TNs of
>having tastes wines side by side just a few days back.
>
>Sorry, but your point is just "head in the sand".
>

I support Michael's general position here that most TCA problems are
caused by randomly tainted corks. I take no position on his particular
figures but I have no data to support or refute them, and I do not
question them. As I have also stated before here, I believe that there
are other routes that TCA can find its way into wine. Some situations
are obvious, e.g. the BV problems. Others are much less so because
they involve much smaller wineries and don't get the (undesirable)
publicity that BV did. Perhaps the release of large batches of wine
contaminated with TCA from sources other than individual corks can
skew the overall figures, but somehow I doubt that.

My job often entails opening numerous bottles of the same wine for
specific events. Depending on who the attendees are at the event, i.e.
how knowledgable they are on wine, I may or may not delegate this job.
When it is important that the wines served show well, I do the job
myself. The bottles involved are almost certainly from the same lot of
wine, bottled probably, at most, a few minutes apart. When, under
these conditions, I occasionally encounter a corked bottle, I can only
attribute this to a random event involving a particular cork. White
wines, which are typically opened at a temperature well below what
they will eventually be served at, are particularly difficult, and
more than a few have slipped by me. It should also be noted that, at
such events, I very often have others around to offer a second opinion
on a specific wine.

Vino
  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
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Vino wrote:

> I support Michael's general position here that most TCA problems are
> caused by randomly tainted corks. I take no position on his particular
> figures but I have no data to support or refute them, and I do not
> question them. As I have also stated before here, I believe that there
> are other routes that TCA can find its way into wine. Some situations
> are obvious, e.g. the BV problems. Others are much less so because
> they involve much smaller wineries and don't get the (undesirable)
> publicity that BV did. Perhaps the release of large batches of wine
> contaminated with TCA from sources other than individual corks can
> skew the overall figures, but somehow I doubt that.


I have not experienced the 15% cork taint rate that Parker is now using
as the industry wide rate. My experience is closer to 8% but I too may
have missed some chilled whites. What I have experienced is that some
wineries fall victim to this more often than others. Two years ago, one
winery whose wines I tasted often was closer to 25%. That makes it a
non-random event when you find a corked bottle. I am sure that the 15%
number includes the wieners that some how manage to monopolize the bad
corks.
  #99 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Vino wrote:

> I support Michael's general position here that most TCA problems are
> caused by randomly tainted corks. I take no position on his particular
> figures but I have no data to support or refute them, and I do not
> question them. As I have also stated before here, I believe that there
> are other routes that TCA can find its way into wine. Some situations
> are obvious, e.g. the BV problems. Others are much less so because
> they involve much smaller wineries and don't get the (undesirable)
> publicity that BV did. Perhaps the release of large batches of wine
> contaminated with TCA from sources other than individual corks can
> skew the overall figures, but somehow I doubt that.


I have not experienced the 15% cork taint rate that Parker is now using
as the industry wide rate. My experience is closer to 8% but I too may
have missed some chilled whites. What I have experienced is that some
wineries fall victim to this more often than others. Two years ago, one
winery whose wines I tasted often was closer to 25%. That makes it a
non-random event when you find a corked bottle. I am sure that the 15%
number includes the wieners that some how manage to monopolize the bad
corks.
  #100 (permalink)   Report Post  
JEP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message link.net>...
> Jep, out of curiosity can you explain what other factors could be that would
> cause this kind of bottle variation within a case. I assume M. Pronay is
> likely correct wth regards to TCA when its an occasional and on limited
> bottles...but what are the other factos you refer to?
>


There are so many it's difficult to list them all. There is individual
bottle contamination. Contamination in hoses that can wash out as more
wine is passed through. There is contamination in individual barrels.
Some wineries have indicated that the TCA contamination was air born
from chlorine being used and washed down drains, so we have to take
into account changes in air flow patterns in the winery. The list goes
on and on.

If we use side by side bottles as proof that it's the cork, how do we
explain that chances are the two corks came from the same bag and very
possibly from the same tree. Why aren't both corks contaminated with
TCA and in turn contaminate both bottles.

I just think this issue is a lot more complex than some would like us
to believe. Yes, I think an increased use of screw caps will reduce
the occurence of TCA contamination, for mutiple reasons, I just don't
think it's the silver bullet.

Andy


  #101 (permalink)   Report Post  
JEP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message link.net>...
> Jep, out of curiosity can you explain what other factors could be that would
> cause this kind of bottle variation within a case. I assume M. Pronay is
> likely correct wth regards to TCA when its an occasional and on limited
> bottles...but what are the other factos you refer to?
>


There are so many it's difficult to list them all. There is individual
bottle contamination. Contamination in hoses that can wash out as more
wine is passed through. There is contamination in individual barrels.
Some wineries have indicated that the TCA contamination was air born
from chlorine being used and washed down drains, so we have to take
into account changes in air flow patterns in the winery. The list goes
on and on.

If we use side by side bottles as proof that it's the cork, how do we
explain that chances are the two corks came from the same bag and very
possibly from the same tree. Why aren't both corks contaminated with
TCA and in turn contaminate both bottles.

I just think this issue is a lot more complex than some would like us
to believe. Yes, I think an increased use of screw caps will reduce
the occurence of TCA contamination, for mutiple reasons, I just don't
think it's the silver bullet.

Andy
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