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Up until now this discussion has been "screw caps" vs.
corks. How about the 3rd option - synthetic "corks"? I realize that synthetic corks are mostly used on drink now or short term wines, but I wonder if they would even work for longer term storage? Bottles could be stored upright just like screw caps. Has any research been done on synthetic corks. Just curious, Dick R. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it > really does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in > this thread indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to > exist. I woud contend that we actually don't know how rare that > really is. You are willing to accept that it is the cork > primarily. I am not there yet. Dick, if you taste a few thousand wines a year with a combined obvious and hidden taint rate of 30 percent *confirmed* *by* *taint-free* *back-up* *bottles*, I can only repeat: Your point is head in the sand. Sorry. M. |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it > really does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in > this thread indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to > exist. I woud contend that we actually don't know how rare that > really is. You are willing to accept that it is the cork > primarily. I am not there yet. Dick, if you taste a few thousand wines a year with a combined obvious and hidden taint rate of 30 percent *confirmed* *by* *taint-free* *back-up* *bottles*, I can only repeat: Your point is head in the sand. Sorry. M. |
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Sand can be quite tasty :-)
"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > >> Additionally, just because TCA problems have been on the rise it >> really does not mean it has to come from the corks. Someone in >> this thread indicated that it is rare for the BV issues to >> exist. I woud contend that we actually don't know how rare that >> really is. You are willing to accept that it is the cork >> primarily. I am not there yet. > > Dick, if you taste a few thousand wines a year with a combined > obvious and hidden taint rate of 30 percent *confirmed* *by* > *taint-free* *back-up* *bottles*, I can only repeat: Your point is > head in the sand. Sorry. > > M. |
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Michael Pronay > wrote in message >...
> > What you don't seem to get is that winery infection by TCA is > infinitesimally rarer than TCA infection (and random oxidation, > and and, and ...) by corks. > > M. Here we go again. Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery. And these are only the ones that have taken the time and expense of bringing in an independent lab to test and released the results to the public. In some cases the wine still gets to market and not every bottle shows taint. In some reports, multiple bottles of the same wine were sent to the labs with some testing positive for TCA contamination and some not. There are just too many variables in wine production to say that all bottle variation is due to the cork. There is also TCB contamination which is has the same sensory properties as TCA but, from the reports I've seen, has never been detected in corks. Making a statement that eliminating corks will eliminate bottle variation and TCA contaminated wine is just too simplistic for me. IMHO, it is a much more complex issue than that. To the other poster that asked why the cork industry hasn't done anything about the problem, simply put, they have. They recognized very early on that a lot of their problems were due to the use of chlorine in their cork processing procedures. AFAIK, they have all stopped. After saying all that, I applaud the use of screw caps for many wines and wouldn't hesitate to buy wines that packaged this way, especially fresh fruity whites. I'm just not ready to bet my whole cellar on them yet. Andy |
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Michael Pronay > wrote in message >...
> > What you don't seem to get is that winery infection by TCA is > infinitesimally rarer than TCA infection (and random oxidation, > and and, and ...) by corks. > > M. Here we go again. Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery. And these are only the ones that have taken the time and expense of bringing in an independent lab to test and released the results to the public. In some cases the wine still gets to market and not every bottle shows taint. In some reports, multiple bottles of the same wine were sent to the labs with some testing positive for TCA contamination and some not. There are just too many variables in wine production to say that all bottle variation is due to the cork. There is also TCB contamination which is has the same sensory properties as TCA but, from the reports I've seen, has never been detected in corks. Making a statement that eliminating corks will eliminate bottle variation and TCA contaminated wine is just too simplistic for me. IMHO, it is a much more complex issue than that. To the other poster that asked why the cork industry hasn't done anything about the problem, simply put, they have. They recognized very early on that a lot of their problems were due to the use of chlorine in their cork processing procedures. AFAIK, they have all stopped. After saying all that, I applaud the use of screw caps for many wines and wouldn't hesitate to buy wines that packaged this way, especially fresh fruity whites. I'm just not ready to bet my whole cellar on them yet. Andy |
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That is what I am trying to state also.
Not all the TCA issues are cork related. dick "JEP" > wrote in message om... > Michael Pronay > wrote in message > >... >> >> What you don't seem to get is that winery infection by TCA is >> infinitesimally rarer than TCA infection (and random oxidation, >> and and, and ...) by corks. >> >> M. > > Here we go again. > > Sorry, can't agree. More and more wineries are coming forth and > telling us that their TCA problems are winery related, not cork > related. BV, Chalone, Hanzell, Gallo, Chateau Montelena have all > reported wine contamination from TCA present in the winery. And these > are only the ones that have taken the time and expense of bringing in > an independent lab to test and released the results to the public. > > In some cases the wine still gets to market and not every bottle shows > taint. In some reports, multiple bottles of the same wine were sent to > the labs with some testing positive for TCA contamination and some > not. There are just too many variables in wine production to say that > all bottle variation is due to the cork. > > There is also TCB contamination which is has the same sensory > properties as TCA but, from the reports I've seen, has never been > detected in corks. > > Making a statement that eliminating corks will eliminate bottle > variation and TCA contaminated wine is just too simplistic for me. > IMHO, it is a much more complex issue than that. > > To the other poster that asked why the cork industry hasn't done > anything about the problem, simply put, they have. They recognized > very early on that a lot of their problems were due to the use of > chlorine in their cork processing procedures. AFAIK, they have all > stopped. > > After saying all that, I applaud the use of screw caps for many wines > and wouldn't hesitate to buy wines that packaged this way, especially > fresh fruity whites. I'm just not ready to bet my whole cellar on them > yet. > > > Andy |
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Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> Fortunately, I seem to be quite TCA insensitive so this is not as pressing a > problem for me as it seems to be for Michael and quite a few others. > You are perhaps not very sensitive to TCA, are you? > Anders I never seem to drink a bottle with out company. If I am serving wine and my guests were sensitive to TCA and I was not, I think they would think that I had poor tastes in wine. Maybe I should come over and pre-taste your wines before you serve guests. |
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Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> Fortunately, I seem to be quite TCA insensitive so this is not as pressing a > problem for me as it seems to be for Michael and quite a few others. > You are perhaps not very sensitive to TCA, are you? > Anders I never seem to drink a bottle with out company. If I am serving wine and my guests were sensitive to TCA and I was not, I think they would think that I had poor tastes in wine. Maybe I should come over and pre-taste your wines before you serve guests. |
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Leo Bueno wrote:
> When and where did Parker make these prognostications? >>The three tier system will collaspe in the US >>Alt.food.wine will be a main stream source of info >>The great wines will be bid on in the global market >>France will suffer from the global market and their obsession >> with tradition >>Screw caps will be on 95% of all bottles >>Spain will be the rising star of the wine world >>Malbec will make a big splash >>US wine market will be dominated by Central Coast wines >>Southern Italy will ascend >>Unoaked wines will finally become popular October issue of Food & Wine magazine which they subtitle 'The Wine Issue" Over all I usually junk this magazine which is sent to me free but Parker does seem to have a regular column I think. It is certainly not in any depth. |
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Leo Bueno wrote:
> When and where did Parker make these prognostications? >>The three tier system will collaspe in the US >>Alt.food.wine will be a main stream source of info >>The great wines will be bid on in the global market >>France will suffer from the global market and their obsession >> with tradition >>Screw caps will be on 95% of all bottles >>Spain will be the rising star of the wine world >>Malbec will make a big splash >>US wine market will be dominated by Central Coast wines >>Southern Italy will ascend >>Unoaked wines will finally become popular October issue of Food & Wine magazine which they subtitle 'The Wine Issue" Over all I usually junk this magazine which is sent to me free but Parker does seem to have a regular column I think. It is certainly not in any depth. |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average in > good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our products > and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of infestation even > though they could have occured in the consumers home kitchen or retail > grocery store in terms of cross contamination. > Removing Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most of > all TCA issues are not like the BV issue. A very accurate corparate view of life in the US. > BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell the > truth. BV did not speak out until the Wine Spectator performed a second open tasting and proved they had a problem. I think they might have been surprized. Several other Napa wineries have had major quanities of wines tainted by things other than TCA in recent years. But this begs the issue. If you can get rid of 15% of the known TCA taint, why not do it immediately. > Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up the > assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't the > majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they know then > they have no one to blame if TCA remains? > > > > > "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message > ... > >>Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, >> >>le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- >> >> >>>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>>the >>>china over a few bad meals. >> >>Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of >>the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find >>it >>inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire >>service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only >>crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap >>and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's hesitation. >> >> >>>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? >> >>VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries >>with >>severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to improve >>their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more >>common, >>masks the cellar related problems. >> >> >>>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only comes >> >>>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. >> >>One case in how many? >> >> >>>And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. >> >>I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few >>days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE >>proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. >> >>What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to >>accept, >>is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown >>caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It >>may >>be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot of >>talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing that >>has been carried out. >> >> >>-- >>All the Best >>Ian Hoare >>http://www.souvigne.com >>mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website > > > -- Cork-O-Mattic The Proper Stopper Exclusive butt plug of the Special Olympics |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average in > good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our products > and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of infestation even > though they could have occured in the consumers home kitchen or retail > grocery store in terms of cross contamination. > Removing Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most of > all TCA issues are not like the BV issue. A very accurate corparate view of life in the US. > BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell the > truth. BV did not speak out until the Wine Spectator performed a second open tasting and proved they had a problem. I think they might have been surprized. Several other Napa wineries have had major quanities of wines tainted by things other than TCA in recent years. But this begs the issue. If you can get rid of 15% of the known TCA taint, why not do it immediately. > Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up the > assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't the > majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they know then > they have no one to blame if TCA remains? > > > > > "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message > ... > >>Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, >> >>le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- >> >> >>>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>>the >>>china over a few bad meals. >> >>Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of >>the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find >>it >>inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire >>service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only >>crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap >>and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's hesitation. >> >> >>>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? >> >>VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries >>with >>severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to improve >>their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more >>common, >>masks the cellar related problems. >> >> >>>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only comes >> >>>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. >> >>One case in how many? >> >> >>>And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. >> >>I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few >>days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE >>proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. >> >>What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to >>accept, >>is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown >>caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It >>may >>be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot of >>talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing that >>has been carried out. >> >> >>-- >>All the Best >>Ian Hoare >>http://www.souvigne.com >>mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website > > > -- Cork-O-Mattic The Proper Stopper Exclusive butt plug of the Special Olympics |
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For every day wines I have no problem. For my long term wines that I might
keep I really am not sure that the aging process won't be hindered. Until I feel better about that I am not going to support for all wines. "Pantheras" > wrote in message news:Nmj1d.3673$xH1.3483@trnddc03... > Richard Neidich wrote: > >> In the end we concluded we will have 250 complaints per year on average >> in good years and bad years. We sell about 2 million packages of our >> products and we are still concerned about the 250 complaints of >> infestation even though they could have occured in the consumers home >> kitchen or retail grocery store in terms of cross contamination. Removing >> Blackeyes did not solve the problem and I am not sure that most of all >> TCA issues are not like the BV issue. > > A very accurate corparate view of life in the US. > >> BV might have simply been one of the few willing to speak out and tell >> the truth. > > BV did not speak out until the Wine Spectator performed a second open > tasting and proved they had a problem. I think they might have been > surprized. Several other Napa wineries have had major quanities of > wines tainted by things other than TCA in recent years. But this begs > the issue. If you can get rid of 15% of the known TCA taint, why not > do it immediately. > > > > >> Sorry, I have to agree to disagree until proof, scientific will back up >> the assertions here in the group. Also, if you are correct why haven't >> the majority of wineries already made the change. Is it possible they >> know then they have no one to blame if TCA remains? >> >> >> >> >> "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message >> ... >> >>>Salut/Hi Richard Neidich, >>> >>>le/on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:26:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:- >>> >>> >>>>With regards to the China spoiling food that would be like throwing out >>>>the >>>>china over a few bad meals. >>> >>>Well, Dick. If I were a chef, making really fine food, and I knew that of >>>the 100 people eating it every day in my restaurant, about 10 would find >>>it >>>inedible purely because of the china, I'd have thrown away the entire >>>service without a moment's thought. And if it turned out that the only >>>crockery capable of guaranteeing that me food would taste right was cheap >>>and cheerful pyrex (glass), then I'd buy it without a moment's >>>hesitation. >>> >>> >>>>However what are you going to do when you still have TCA in wines with >>>>Stelvins if not all the issues are Cork related? >>> >>>VERY rare, Dick. And in fact, it would actually point up those wineries >>>with >>>severe problems in their cellar, so would act as a spur to them to >>>improve >>>their methods. At the moment, cork related TCA which is so much more >>>common, >>>masks the cellar related problems. >>> >>> >>>>I am a traditionalist. I do not have total confidence that TCA only >>>>comes >>> >>>>from Cork. Not after the BV issue here in NAPA. >>> >>>One case in how many? >>> >>> >>>>And I don't think that by 2015 95% of all wines will be screw caps. >>> >>>I do. If only because 95% of all wines are going to be drunk within a few >>>days of being bought. I forget the figures, but in some countries, a HUGE >>>proportion of wines bought will be consumed in under 24 hours. >>> >>>What you, and all the people who fight FOR corks seem not to want to >>>accept, >>>is that Stelvin (I'm NOT arguing in favour of plastic "corks") and crown >>>caps have been around for ages, and have proved themselves reliable. It >>>may >>>be that it's only in the last couple of years that there has been a lot >>>of >>>talk about them, but that has little to do with the long term testing >>>that >>>has been carried out. >>> >>> >>>-- >>>All the Best >>>Ian Hoare >>>http://www.souvigne.com >>>mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website >> >> >> > > > -- > Cork-O-Mattic > The Proper Stopper > Exclusive butt plug of > the Special Olympics |
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Bill Loftin wrote:
> Richard Neidich wrote: > >> I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to >> dissapearing. If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the >> first growth wines of France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with >> Real Cork!!! >> >> Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? > > > I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive > Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. > For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. That offering was available with cork and with a screw cap. I believe the screw cap was $10 more than the bottles with cork (because of the extra cost?). |
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And are they still doing screw caps?
"larkin1734" > wrote in message ... > Bill Loftin wrote: >> Richard Neidich wrote: >> >>> I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to >>> dissapearing. If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the first >>> growth wines of France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with Real >>> Cork!!! >>> >>> Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? >> >> >> I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive >> Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. >> For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. > > That offering was available with cork and with a screw cap. I believe the > screw cap was $10 more than the bottles with cork (because of the extra > cost?). |
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"Bill Loftin" > skrev i melding news:H3j1d.3668$xH1.34@trnddc03... > I never seem to drink a bottle with out company. If I am serving wine > and my guests were sensitive to TCA and I was not, I think they would > think that I had poor tastes in wine. Maybe I should come over and > pre-taste your wines before you serve guests. > Good point and you are welcome :-). But, for some reason, most people I know don't seem to be TCA sensitive...? It could be a trait of Scandinavian genes or that very many people around here have little idea what a good wine should be like (most likely). However, I'll admit to having encountered many unimpressive red wines with little or no fruit - and normally attribute that to "a lousy product, won't buy again" or "poorly stored, bad luck" or "too old, fruit is gone" - where the correct answer would have been TCA, TCA and TCA! Anders |
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Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> Good point and you are welcome :-). But, for some reason, most people I > know don't seem to be TCA sensitive...? It could be a trait of Scandinavian > genes or that very many people around here have little idea what a good wine > should be like (most likely). > However, I'll admit to having encountered many unimpressive red wines with > little or no fruit - and normally attribute that to "a lousy product, won't > buy again" or "poorly stored, bad luck" or "too old, fruit is gone" - where > the correct answer would have been TCA, TCA and TCA! > Anders We had a thread several years ago about Brettanomyces and how a majority of wine drinkers are totally insensitive to this problem, mostly drinkers of French wines since it is commonly found in Chateau Pichon- Lalande, Chateau de Beaucastel and Domaine Tempier's Bandol from Provence. But some people really react strongly to it. |
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Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> Good point and you are welcome :-). But, for some reason, most people I > know don't seem to be TCA sensitive...? It could be a trait of Scandinavian > genes or that very many people around here have little idea what a good wine > should be like (most likely). > However, I'll admit to having encountered many unimpressive red wines with > little or no fruit - and normally attribute that to "a lousy product, won't > buy again" or "poorly stored, bad luck" or "too old, fruit is gone" - where > the correct answer would have been TCA, TCA and TCA! > Anders We had a thread several years ago about Brettanomyces and how a majority of wine drinkers are totally insensitive to this problem, mostly drinkers of French wines since it is commonly found in Chateau Pichon- Lalande, Chateau de Beaucastel and Domaine Tempier's Bandol from Provence. But some people really react strongly to it. |
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Bordeaux, especially the top flight wineries will never abandon cork as long
as the wines are sought after in the world market. I suspect the same goes for Burgundy, and the Rhone. There will be traditional cork supporters throughout other countries where cork is equated to prestige/romance etc. So if the problem is too little high quality cork and/or expensive technologies to insure reliability; increased use of Stelvins, screwtops and other closures will reduce demand for cork and thus a diminution in the need for inferior cork products to satisfy the market. So quality control measures will weed out the elements that contribute the use of poor material. So my prediction is less and more expensive cork but a higher percentage of reliability. Only if improving cork production takes on the objections, quasi-moral and religious, similar to conducting of stem cell research, will the quality of corks remain the same or decline. By G-d and Ashcroft we may not reduce incidents of Alzheimer's, AIDS, or cancer but when coherent we won't be bitching about a cork damaged bottle of Chateau Ephemeral in 2015. -- Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg "Richard Neidich" > wrote in message .net... > And are they still doing screw caps? > > > "larkin1734" > wrote in message > ... > > Bill Loftin wrote: > >> Richard Neidich wrote: > >> > >>> yada, yada, yada |
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"Dick R." > wrote:
> Up until now this discussion has been "screw caps" vs. corks. > How about the 3rd option - synthetic "corks"? I realize that > synthetic corks are mostly used on drink now or short term > wines, but I wonder if they would even work for longer term > storage? No. After a year or so they start to age much faster, after two years most of the wines I know are prematurely oxidized. M. |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> And are they still doing screw caps? > > > "larkin1734" > wrote in message > ... > >>Bill Loftin wrote: >> >>>Richard Neidich wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to >>>>dissapearing. If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the first >>>>growth wines of France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with Real >>>>Cork!!! >>>> >>>>Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? >>> >>> >>>I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive >>>Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. >>>For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. >> >>That offering was available with cork and with a screw cap. I believe the >>screw cap was $10 more than the bottles with cork (because of the extra >>cost?). > > > Yep. You can buy the chardonnay with cork or stelvin. The reserve cab appears to be sold only as a pair of bottles: one of each. See http://www.plumpjack.com/winery/PJ_W...Order_Form.pdf |
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Richard Neidich wrote:
> And are they still doing screw caps? > > > "larkin1734" > wrote in message > ... > >>Bill Loftin wrote: >> >>>Richard Neidich wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I for one don't think that the Cork will ever come close to >>>>dissapearing. If 95% of all bottles will have Screw caps I bet the first >>>>growth wines of France, Napa, Spain, Italy will all remain with Real >>>>Cork!!! >>>> >>>>Any one want to have a friendly wager on that one? >>> >>> >>>I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive >>>Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. >>>For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. >> >>That offering was available with cork and with a screw cap. I believe the >>screw cap was $10 more than the bottles with cork (because of the extra >>cost?). > > > Yep. You can buy the chardonnay with cork or stelvin. The reserve cab appears to be sold only as a pair of bottles: one of each. See http://www.plumpjack.com/winery/PJ_W...Order_Form.pdf |
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"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Dick R." > wrote: > > > Up until now this discussion has been "screw caps" vs. corks. > > How about the 3rd option - synthetic "corks"? I realize that > > synthetic corks are mostly used on drink now or short term > > wines, but I wonder if they would even work for longer term > > storage? > > No. After a year or so they start to age much faster, after two > years most of the wines I know are prematurely oxidized. > Michael, you scare me! Most of my producers switched to synthetic corks in the last three years. I need at least five years to drink these bottles. I have the impression that not only wines for fast consumption are corked synthetically, but also those which hold for 5+ years. Martin |
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"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Dick R." > wrote: > > > Up until now this discussion has been "screw caps" vs. corks. > > How about the 3rd option - synthetic "corks"? I realize that > > synthetic corks are mostly used on drink now or short term > > wines, but I wonder if they would even work for longer term > > storage? > > No. After a year or so they start to age much faster, after two > years most of the wines I know are prematurely oxidized. > Michael, you scare me! Most of my producers switched to synthetic corks in the last three years. I need at least five years to drink these bottles. I have the impression that not only wines for fast consumption are corked synthetically, but also those which hold for 5+ years. Martin |
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"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message ... > > But, for some reason, most people I > know don't seem to be TCA sensitive...? It could be a trait of Scandinavian > genes or that very many people around here have little idea what a good wine > should be like (most likely). Anders, I can assure you, it's not the Scandinavian genes. I am the slowest one in our tasting group. While I admire the wine's color, the others already swallowed and make a lot of comments about the interesting toasting of the barrique and so on. A short sniff makes me cry out: "Nonsense, dear folks. This wine is corked." They make big eyes in their amazement. Finally our winemaker (group member) shrugs his sholders and sighs: "You're right, of course." My wife, for instance, is totally cork-insensitive. When I tasted a wine in a restaurant and thought it's slightly corked, I let taste her and she liked it. So we drank it. But with aeration the TCA smell gets worse and worse. The last glass was barely drinkable. Maybe this is the verdict in the dispute about "breathing and vapors": Don't let breathe a corked wine ;-) > However, I'll admit to having encountered many unimpressive red wines with > little or no fruit - and normally attribute that to "a lousy product, won't > buy again" or "poorly stored, bad luck" or "too old, fruit is gone" - where > the correct answer would have been TCA, TCA and TCA! Not necessarily. If all bottles are unimpressive, chances are good that the product is lousy. Another question is:"Why did I like the wine when tasting it at the winery or in the wine shop, when all six bottles I bought are crap?" Martin |
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"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message ... > > But, for some reason, most people I > know don't seem to be TCA sensitive...? It could be a trait of Scandinavian > genes or that very many people around here have little idea what a good wine > should be like (most likely). Anders, I can assure you, it's not the Scandinavian genes. I am the slowest one in our tasting group. While I admire the wine's color, the others already swallowed and make a lot of comments about the interesting toasting of the barrique and so on. A short sniff makes me cry out: "Nonsense, dear folks. This wine is corked." They make big eyes in their amazement. Finally our winemaker (group member) shrugs his sholders and sighs: "You're right, of course." My wife, for instance, is totally cork-insensitive. When I tasted a wine in a restaurant and thought it's slightly corked, I let taste her and she liked it. So we drank it. But with aeration the TCA smell gets worse and worse. The last glass was barely drinkable. Maybe this is the verdict in the dispute about "breathing and vapors": Don't let breathe a corked wine ;-) > However, I'll admit to having encountered many unimpressive red wines with > little or no fruit - and normally attribute that to "a lousy product, won't > buy again" or "poorly stored, bad luck" or "too old, fruit is gone" - where > the correct answer would have been TCA, TCA and TCA! Not necessarily. If all bottles are unimpressive, chances are good that the product is lousy. Another question is:"Why did I like the wine when tasting it at the winery or in the wine shop, when all six bottles I bought are crap?" Martin |
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larkin1734 wrote:
>>>> I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive >>>> Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. >>>> For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. >>> >>> That offering was available with cork and with a screw cap. I >>> believe the screw cap was $10 more than the bottles with cork >>> (because of the extra cost?). > Yep. You can buy the chardonnay with cork or stelvin. The reserve cab > appears to be sold only as a pair of bottles: one of each. See > http://www.plumpjack.com/winery/PJ_W...Order_Form.pdf That is a brillant idea. Lay two bottles down side by side the proof is at hand. Great way to change attitudes and work in the new product. |
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larkin1734 wrote:
>>>> I believe that it was about 5 years ago that one of the most expensive >>>> Cabs from Napa ( Plumpjack ) appeared on the market with a screw cap. >>>> For $110 bucks you too could own a screw cap wine. >>> >>> That offering was available with cork and with a screw cap. I >>> believe the screw cap was $10 more than the bottles with cork >>> (because of the extra cost?). > Yep. You can buy the chardonnay with cork or stelvin. The reserve cab > appears to be sold only as a pair of bottles: one of each. See > http://www.plumpjack.com/winery/PJ_W...Order_Form.pdf That is a brillant idea. Lay two bottles down side by side the proof is at hand. Great way to change attitudes and work in the new product. |
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In article >, Michael Pronay >
writes: >I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones >you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou >and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in >whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit >scalping) *is* random. Exactly. I never quite have understood the "but not all TCA-contamination is cork-related" argument against stelvins. Winery contamination is probably the case with most BVs or late-80s Ducrus, but when one bottle of '94 L-Poyferre or one bottle of '89 Talbot out of a case is spoiled, that's the damn cork! My post re the large Bdx tasting Saturday was the first time in recent memory that I didn't run across a single contaminated bottle in a big lineup (about 20 wines). Dale Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply |
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In article >, Michael Pronay >
writes: >I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones >you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou >and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in >whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit >scalping) *is* random. Exactly. I never quite have understood the "but not all TCA-contamination is cork-related" argument against stelvins. Winery contamination is probably the case with most BVs or late-80s Ducrus, but when one bottle of '94 L-Poyferre or one bottle of '89 Talbot out of a case is spoiled, that's the damn cork! My post re the large Bdx tasting Saturday was the first time in recent memory that I didn't run across a single contaminated bottle in a big lineup (about 20 wines). Dale Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply |
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"Dale Williams" > wrote in message ... > In article >, Michael Pronay > > writes: > > >I don't deny TCA infections of wineries, and apart from the ones > >you stated there are the well-known examples of Ducru-Beaucaillou > >and Canon, but all these have in common that TCA is to be found in > >whole batches, while typical cork TCA (plus oxidation plus fruit > >scalping) *is* random. > > Exactly. I never quite have understood the "but not all TCA-contamination is > cork-related" argument against stelvins. Winery contamination is probably the > case with most BVs or late-80s Ducrus, but when one bottle of '94 L-Poyferre or > one bottle of '89 Talbot out of a case is spoiled, that's the damn cork! My > post re the large Bdx tasting Saturday was the first time in recent memory that > I didn't run across a single contaminated bottle in a big lineup (about 20 > wines). > Dale > > Dale Williams > Drop "damnspam" to reply I take it they were all sealed with stelvin? (Just kidding!) Ron lel |
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"Ron Lel" > wrote:
> I would taste about 1500+ wines a year. I am sensitive to TCA. I > don't get anywhere near the figures for affected wines that you > do. So be happy - and let me have srewcaps. At least for pre-ordered/pre-paid wines! M. |
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"Martin Schulz" > wrote:
>> No. After a year or so they start to age much faster, after two >> years most of the wines I know are prematurely oxidized. > Michael, you scare me! My best wishes to you, but be prepared. And dont tell me I didn't warn you ... ;-( M. |
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I have NO PROBLEM with you being able to get your Stelvins when you
pre-order. In my case I am going to order the Plumpjack Cab since they offer a 6 pack wtih 3 Cork and 3 Screw Caps. I should see for myself---Hold 5 years or so and try 1 ea. Candidly I have not had a screw cap since my days of drinking Riunite Lambrusco. And that as a different type screw cap I think. "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Ron Lel" > wrote: > >> I would taste about 1500+ wines a year. I am sensitive to TCA. I >> don't get anywhere near the figures for affected wines that you >> do. > > So be happy - and let me have srewcaps. At least for > pre-ordered/pre-paid wines! > > M. |
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Michael Pronay wrote in message
> Richard, I am a professional wine writer tasting some 3000 to 4000 > wines a year. I know what I am speaking about when I say that 5 to > 10 percent of the wines have obvious, and 20 to 30 percent hidden > TCA/other cork taint problems. These figures *do* hold, since they > are immediately proven by back-üp bottles and/or memory/TNs of > having tastes wines side by side just a few days back. Michael, I'm somewhat of a newbie here. I keep thinking that I'm about ready to stop calling myself a "newbie," but then happen upon conversations like this that prove I still have a __long__ way to go. But in the 5-10 percent of the wine with "obvious TCA/other cork taint problems," do these occur on individual bottles only, or could you point to a particular wine/vintage that has such obvious problem? I would be curious to "taste" what everybody is talking about and see if I am at all sensative to it. I'd especially be interested in a Bordeaux, since I am currently in the process of familiarizing myself with them (I've only been doing this since mid-July, but have collected over 60 bottles, mostly from the 80's, many 90's, some 70's, a few 60's, one one 2000). I'm buying mostly ones I like to drink now, as you can probably surmise from the vintage ranges I note. Thanks in advance, \/ |
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"Vincent" > wrote:
> But in the 5-10 percent of the wine with "obvious TCA/other cork > taint problems," do these occur on individual bottles only, or > could you point to a particular wine/vintage that has such > obvious problem? They occur completely at random. Sometimes winegrowers admit of having had a particularly bad batch (as they sometimes are lucky and have near to zero problems), but it can strike anybody. Just two stories: - As you like Bordeaux (as I do), here is my collection of corked *magnums*: The first 2 from a case of 6 of Camensac 1985 (the other 4 unouched); my only mag Sociando 1985; and, finally, there weeks ago, the only mag of 1961 Gruaud-Larose (a wedding gift, in the presence of the donour, who was even more embarrassed than me). - If you find mentioning quite often 1985, this is true, since it's the birth year of my son (from first marriage). Back in 1986 I bought 6 bottles of Grüner Veltliner from FX Pichler, a world class grower here in Austria, to lay them down. A year or two later I asked a friend of mine, sommelier in a top restaurant, how FX Pichler's 1985s were doing. "A catastrophy. Over 50% cork taint." This was confirmed by the grower who ranted about the cork problems of his wines. I asked whether I could come by to eventually change the corks? "Sure, no problem." It took me a few years, and the bin of this wine was down to 9 bottles, kept especially for me. With my 6 added, that made 15 bottles, of which only 7 showed equally fine, while 8 showed different grades of taint. In fact, that was the absolute minimum, because we needed the 7th bottle to top up what was my half dozen I took home again. M. |
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