Just returned from a very pleasant interlude in Durango CO. (Yes, I
rode the train.) Had a several excellent meals, including two nights
at Ariana's Italian which may boast the best veal scallopine
presentations west of NYC, a tour of Asian-eclectic/American
traditional at Ken & Sue's (imagine meatload, maple-mustard glazed NY
strip, nori-wrapped lobster/avocado rolls, and a variety of soy,
lemon-grass, wasabi-enhanced, Szechuan/Hunan/Mandarin concoctions.)

The big night was a French shot at Chez Grandmere--a delightful small
house near the train depot, decorated in country French and offering
some very traditional French cuisine executed perfectly (if a bit
overly salted.)

The wine list at Grandmere got them a WS Award of Excellence, probably
because of the availability of things like a DRC 1985 burg at
$5975/bottle!

There were a number of great Bordeaux offerings and I'm not one to
pass up an opporunity to explore. With duck breast and
lingonberry/red-wine reduction for me and "rack" of lamb (actually two
chops) with port-wine sauce for SWMBO, a bordeaux seemed reasonable.
The waiter (who was otherwise incredibly competent and knowledgeable)
provided little assistance when I asked for advice in choosing between
a '99 Baron Pichon-Longuiville and a '00 Chateau Lascombes which were
in my price range and separated by $10.

He went to the chef/owner and returned pronouncing the Lascombes as
definitely superior due to the vintage. I didn't get to meet or talk
to the recommendor. (I'm sure Ian, Dale, Michael and others will agree
that is a faux pas.)

The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
California cab. There was a nice color, a pleasant nose and a warm,
but not huge dark berry flavor. A bit of tannin pucker on the finish,
but not a harshness of immaturity. It wasn't an unpleasant wine, by a
long shot, but it simply didn't impress as something remarkable or
memorable. A '00 Cakebread Cellars cab that I'd had a couple of months
before for $40/bottle less was much more impressive, as was a Shaffer
cab that I'd enjoyed in June.

What am I missing or is it simply a question of the Bordeaux needing a
lot more years before it really begins to display something?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

>The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>California cab. There was a nice color, a pleasant nose and a warm,
>but not huge dark berry flavor. A bit of tannin pucker on the finish,
>but not a harshness of immaturity. It wasn't an unpleasant wine, by a
>long shot, but it simply didn't impress as something remarkable or
>memorable. A '00 Cakebread Cellars cab that I'd had a couple of months
>before for $40/bottle less was much more impressive, as was a Shaffer
>cab that I'd enjoyed in June.
>
>What am I missing or is it simply a question of the Bordeaux needing a
>lot more years before it really begins to display something?
>
Hi Ed:

First of all, my guess is Cakebread CS retails for more than the $40 that the
'99 Pichon-Baron or '00 Lascombes do.

As I stated in reply to Emery in the Laguna thread, my experience is that the
majority of the classed-growth Bdx are in a very closed state right now. 1999
is a lesser vintage, but better now if you can't do a 24 hour decant.

As to Lascombes in particular, don't think I had the 2000. I've often found it
to be one of the estates that has given Margaux an iffy rep compared to the
other major appelations in Bdx, but I've heard they've improved. And Margaux
did seem to do well in 2000.

Better luck next time!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>California cab. There was a nice color, a pleasant nose and a warm,
>but not huge dark berry flavor. A bit of tannin pucker on the finish,
>but not a harshness of immaturity. It wasn't an unpleasant wine, by a
>long shot, but it simply didn't impress as something remarkable or
>memorable. A '00 Cakebread Cellars cab that I'd had a couple of months
>before for $40/bottle less was much more impressive, as was a Shaffer
>cab that I'd enjoyed in June.
>
>What am I missing or is it simply a question of the Bordeaux needing a
>lot more years before it really begins to display something?
>
Hi Ed:

First of all, my guess is Cakebread CS retails for more than the $40 that the
'99 Pichon-Baron or '00 Lascombes do.

As I stated in reply to Emery in the Laguna thread, my experience is that the
majority of the classed-growth Bdx are in a very closed state right now. 1999
is a lesser vintage, but better now if you can't do a 24 hour decant.

As to Lascombes in particular, don't think I had the 2000. I've often found it
to be one of the estates that has given Margaux an iffy rep compared to the
other major appelations in Bdx, but I've heard they've improved. And Margaux
did seem to do well in 2000.

Better luck next time!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>California cab. There was a nice color, a pleasant nose and a warm,
>but not huge dark berry flavor. A bit of tannin pucker on the finish,
>but not a harshness of immaturity. It wasn't an unpleasant wine, by a
>long shot, but it simply didn't impress as something remarkable or
>memorable. A '00 Cakebread Cellars cab that I'd had a couple of months
>before for $40/bottle less was much more impressive, as was a Shaffer
>cab that I'd enjoyed in June.
>
>What am I missing or is it simply a question of the Bordeaux needing a
>lot more years before it really begins to display something?
>
Hi Ed:

First of all, my guess is Cakebread CS retails for more than the $40 that the
'99 Pichon-Baron or '00 Lascombes do.

As I stated in reply to Emery in the Laguna thread, my experience is that the
majority of the classed-growth Bdx are in a very closed state right now. 1999
is a lesser vintage, but better now if you can't do a 24 hour decant.

As to Lascombes in particular, don't think I had the 2000. I've often found it
to be one of the estates that has given Margaux an iffy rep compared to the
other major appelations in Bdx, but I've heard they've improved. And Margaux
did seem to do well in 2000.

Better luck next time!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>A '00 Cakebread Cellars cab that I'd had a couple of months
>before for $40/bottle less was much more impressive, as was a Shaffer
>cab that I'd enjoyed in June.
>
>What am I missing or is it simply a question of the Bordeaux needing a
>lot more years before it really begins to display something?
>

Both California wines that you metntion are fairly lush and fruity. Perhaps
you just prefer that style of wine. Certainly the French wines often need a
bit more time than their California counterparts but generally speaking their
two different animals.
Bi!!

"Ed Rasimus" in ...
> Just returned from a very pleasant interlude in Durango CO.
> . . .
> The wine list at Grandmere got them a WS Award of Excellence,
> probably because of the availability of things like a DRC 1985
> burg at $5975/bottle!

That will surely help to demystify wine for the US public and introduce the
good values available. ;-)

> There were a number of great Bordeaux offerings and I'm
> not one to pass up an opporunity to explore. With duck
> breast and lingonberry/red-wine reduction for me and "rack"
> of lamb (actually twochops) with port-wine sauce for SWMBO,
> a bordeaux seemed reasonable. The waiter (who was otherwise
> incredibly competent and knowledgeable) provided little assistance
> when I asked for advice in choosing betweena '99 Baron
> Pichon-Longuiville and a '00 Chateau Lascombes which were
> in my price range and separated by $10.

Here is a dilemma of the age manifesting itself. I don't know if I would
ever have become a wine enthusiast, had my introduction to wines consisted
of today's Bordeaux just a couple of years in bottle. Or of a wine list in
similar spirit that I and friends saw last night at a creditable,
hard-working expanding genuine-French-Brasserie mini-chain in my region
(northern California). That list was rich with lesser-known red Rhône and
Burgundy and other wines many of which will likely be opened way, way too
young. Manager shared concern, described usual situation: limited storage,
limited time in business, how can a new restaurant with uncertain future
reserve wine inventory for years ahead, etc. etc.

For serious Bordeaux as cited above (for reference, Stevenson lists
Pichon-Baron as, on average, drinking well 8-25 years from vintage date and
Lascombes as 8-30 years), the custom for most of the last few centuries has
been to quietly store the wines until showing well and then show them well.
That is also how most people have experienced most serious Bordeaux in the
United States. Until recent years. It is hard, for a person or a
restaurant new to these wines, to jump in and obtain ready-to-go, products
that do need years of bottle age, except on the secondary or "used" wine
market (with its associated risks).

All I can suggest constructively is to seek out, patiently, businesses and
friends that hold long-term wines for the long term, in order to judge what
you think of those wines.

(This issue is obstacle enough, to getting a fair picture of what Bordeaux
is about. I stopped buying Bordeaux regularly several years ago because of
another, separate development that compounds the obstacles to their full
enjoyment, and the obstacles to newcomers getting their wine taste: a new
type of numbers-driven consumer who buys as instructed, consistently, thus
driving up prices of exactly what he seeks. Buys, boasts, argues,
apparently even likes, all according to someone else's numbers. Unaware,
evidently, that this is not what more-experienced people do, or what anyone
did until a few years ago. Bill Spohn deposed eloquently on the issue, on a
public HTML forum recently.)

-- Max

"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
...
> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
> California cab.
Hi Ed
Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
(shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
The results were (the way I received them)
1. Beringer Zinfandel
2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz
4. Barolo
5. Amarone
6. Montecillo
7. Ch. Siran 1982
8. Ch. Canon-la-Gaffelière 1990

Well. Tastes differ.
Anders

"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
...
> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
> California cab.
Hi Ed
Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
(shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
The results were (the way I received them)
1. Beringer Zinfandel
2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz
4. Barolo
5. Amarone
6. Montecillo
7. Ch. Siran 1982
8. Ch. Canon-la-Gaffelière 1990

Well. Tastes differ.
Anders

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:31:15 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
.. .
>> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>> California cab.

>Hi Ed
>Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
>friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
>but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
>(shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
>The results were (the way I received them)
>1. Beringer Zinfandel
>2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
>3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz
>4. Barolo
>5. Amarone
>6. Montecillo
>7. Ch. Siran 1982
>8. Ch. Canon-la-Gaffelière 1990
>
>Well. Tastes differ.
>Anders
>

Hard to comment on that without risking insult to your friends.

I guess the conclusion would be that price doesn't relate to their
taste!

Were they using the waxed paper cups or those cone-shaped ones from
the water cooler?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in
news
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
> ...
>> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>> California cab.
> Hi Ed
> Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
> friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter
> Germans but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in
> the 70F range (shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but
> that's another story. The results were (the way I received them)
> 1. Beringer Zinfandel
> 2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
> 3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz
> 4. Barolo
> 5. Amarone
> 6. Montecillo
> 7. Ch. Siran 1982
> 8. Ch. Canon-la-Gaffelière 1990
>
> Well. Tastes differ.
> Anders
>
>

Actually I can appreciate their scores given what you say about them, May I
assume that the Montecillo (Rioja, Riserva?) and Amarone weren't decanted
as one might wish to have done.

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in
news
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
> ...
>> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>> California cab.
> Hi Ed
> Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
> friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter
> Germans but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in
> the 70F range (shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but
> that's another story. The results were (the way I received them)
> 1. Beringer Zinfandel
> 2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
> 3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz
> 4. Barolo
> 5. Amarone
> 6. Montecillo
> 7. Ch. Siran 1982
> 8. Ch. Canon-la-Gaffelière 1990
>
> Well. Tastes differ.
> Anders
>
>

Actually I can appreciate their scores given what you say about them, May I
assume that the Montecillo (Rioja, Riserva?) and Amarone weren't decanted
as one might wish to have done.

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
> friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
> but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
> (shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
> The results were (the way I received them)
> 1. Beringer Zinfandel
> 2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
> 3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz

They like fruit-forward, New World reds. Good for them.
Rather than editorialize, I'll just make sure to remember
this when the come over for dinner.

Dana

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
> friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
> but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
> (shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
> The results were (the way I received them)
> 1. Beringer Zinfandel
> 2. Columbia Crest Cabernet
> 3. Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz

They like fruit-forward, New World reds. Good for them.
Rather than editorialize, I'll just make sure to remember
this when the come over for dinner.

Dana

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
news
> Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
> friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter
Germans
> but also quite a number of reds.

> The results were (the way I received them)
> 1. Beringer Zinfandel

=>8^0 Was that the Beringer _White_ Zinfandel? ;^D

Tom S

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
news
> Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
> friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter
Germans
> but also quite a number of reds.

> The results were (the way I received them)
> 1. Beringer Zinfandel

=>8^0 Was that the Beringer _White_ Zinfandel? ;^D

Tom S

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:31:15 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
.. .
>> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>> California cab.
>Hi Ed
>Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
>friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
>but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
>(shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
>The results were (the way I received them)

>2. Columbia Crest Cabernet

Do you happen to know (or remember) which Columbia Crest Cabernet was
in the tasting (they make three different levels) and what the vintage
was?

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:31:15 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
.. .
>> The wine was nice (applying the adjective as an underwhelming
>> comment), but I simply don't get the value of the French over a
>> California cab.
>Hi Ed
>Fwiw, I recently received the rankings from a blind tasting some of my
>friends had. Those people are used to drinking wine, mainly sweeter Germans
>but also quite a number of reds. They tend to serve reds in the 70F range
>(shudder..) in spite of my repeated objections, but that's another story.
>The results were (the way I received them)

>2. Columbia Crest Cabernet

Do you happen to know (or remember) which Columbia Crest Cabernet was
in the tasting (they make three different levels) and what the vintage
was?

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.