Hi! I am traveling to the South of France this summer for the first
time, and some of my trip will involve visiting vineyards and
wine-tastings. I have no exposure to French wines (with the exception
of Champagne), and have always gravitated most heavily towards
California wines. I enjoy a wide array of grapes when it comes to red
wines, but tend to stick to Chardonnays when it comes to white. Can
anyone advise a novice like me as to some French wines I could try in
the upcoming months to familiarize myself a little before my trip? I
would greatly appreciate it.

(cherie) wrote in
om:

> Hi! I am traveling to the South of France this summer for the first
> time, and some of my trip will involve visiting vineyards and
> wine-tastings. I have no exposure to French wines (with the exception
> of Champagne), and have always gravitated most heavily towards
> California wines. I enjoy a wide array of grapes when it comes to red
> wines, but tend to stick to Chardonnays when it comes to white. Can
> anyone advise a novice like me as to some French wines I could try in
> the upcoming months to familiarize myself a little before my trip? I
> would greatly appreciate it.
>

Assuming that South of France means Provence you will be finding Cote du
Rhone pretty much everywhere. For a basic CdR that is widely available
in the US go for Jaboulet's Parallel 45, it is very consistent.

The top wines of the area are Chateauneuf de Pape. There are many
available in a price range from 20-50's

Gigondas and Vacqueyras peppery wines with increasing amounts of
grenache can be found in the 17-20 range (look for St. Cosme as the most
available)

For whites Cote du Rhone blanc from Guigal is the best example I can
think of.

Hello "cherie";

A few thoughts ...
"cherie" > skrev i meddelandet
om...
> Hi! I am traveling to the South of France this summer for the first
> time

You see, Southern France is quite a mouthful - it is rather _large_. My wife
and myself spend 4-5 weeks in the Alpes-Maritime close to Nice each summer,
and from there we have the possibility of reaching some small parts of the
regions, but e g not Languedoc, nor the South West. We do visit the Northern
RHone which might qualify as Southern France, thugh.

So it would help if you could specify where in the South you are going.

I agree with jcoulter, you might like the Cote du RHone wines, and of course
the Chateauneuf-du-Pape. However, I´d also like to point you in the
direction of the reds of Bandol, just West of Toulon. Big, muscular stuff
with cellaring potential.

Some good wine is also made in the Luberon. We were very pleased with the
reds from Ch Val-Ioannis, and also with their whites, which are made from
local varietals, not Chardonnay.

If you are travelling Languedoc-Rousillon, you should look out for the wines
from Pic-St-Loup and La Clape, and from the small AOC of St Chinian. Very
good value for money, wines that are less austere than the big reds from
Northern Rhone, but often centered around Syrah, Grenache, and Mourvedre.

While on the subject of Languedoc, don´t forget the stickies - Banyuls,
Rivesalte, and the various Muscat versions. While a lot of these sweet,
fortified wines can be a little pedestrian, some of them are excellent.

White wines in the South are not as a rule made from Chard (there are of
course exceptions). Look rather for the interesting thing made from grapes
like Viognier (coming along in the Languedoc and not seldom mixed with
Chard), bourbolenc, grenache blanc ...

We will be in our summer apartment from c. June 10th to July 4th. Do not
hesitate to contact me if we can be of any help or assitance.

Cheers

Nils Gustaf
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

Salut/Hi cherie,

le/on 17 Feb 2004 14:20:07 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>Hi! I am traveling to the South of France this summer for the first
>time, and some of my trip will involve visiting vineyards and
>wine-tastings. I have no exposure to French wines (with the exception
>of Champagne), and have always gravitated most heavily towards
>California wines. I enjoy a wide array of grapes when it comes to red
>wines, but tend to stick to Chardonnays when it comes to white. Can
>anyone advise a novice like me as to some French wines I could try in
>the upcoming months to familiarize myself a little before my trip? I
>would greatly appreciate it.

Hi,

This is really one for Mike Tommasi, who lives on the Mediterranean coast
and knows the wines of the area very well. However, if you like californian
wines, you will most probably enjoy the wines of the area. I'll wait for
Mike, to see what he suggests, before coming back further.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in
:



>
> Some good wine is also made in the Luberon. We were very pleased with
> the reds from Ch Val-Ioannis, and also with their whites, which are
> made from local varietals, not Chardonnay.

Well, then there is the matter of Cote de Provence which also produces
some nice things, I suppose the bottom line is drink what is local, it
is a rule that has served me well everywhere but in Bolsena, Italy where
the local white, Belvedere, was nearly undrinkable - but it did make Est
Est Est look better!
>
> If you are travelling Languedoc-Rousillon, you should look out for the
> wines from Pic-St-Loup and La Clape, and from the small AOC of St
> Chinian. Very good value for money, wines that are less austere than
> the big reds from Northern Rhone, but often centered around Syrah,
> Grenache, and Mourvedre.
St Chinian is one that I have found in N. Florida and I agree a very
pleasant wine for a good price.
>

Thank you Nils and jcoulter, I can't wait to get started!
Yes, I suppose my reference to the "South of France" is a bit vague.
We are visiting quite a few areas, and I was trying to be brief (a tip
from the "posting style guide---I've never posted a message before).
Anyway, our trip starts with a few days in Paris, and then we are
taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
leaves from Lyon and travels throughout Macon, Burgundy, Vienne, Cotes
du Rhone, Ardeche Valley, Viviers, Provence, Avignon, Marseille, and
Arles. After the cruise, we will spend a few days in the Nice/Cannes
area on our own. It's a little overwhelming and very exciting as we
have never been to France or anywhere in Europe for that matter! And
like I've said, we are wine lovers, but have no exposure to French
wines. Thanks for the advice. -Cherie

> I agree with jcoulter, you might like the Cote du RHone wines, and of
course
> the Chateauneuf-du-Pape. However, I´d also like to point you in the
> direction of the reds of Bandol, just West of Toulon. Big, muscular stuff
> with cellaring potential.

Nils - any particular recommendations? I've often battled with the light
body of the French wines as (as you know) I was weaned on big New World
wines from the Southern Hemisphere. Recently I've been playing with some
French Syrah, in particular from the Rhone area and have really been
enjoying them - I find them a bit less "musky" or "peppery" to the SA/AUS
style and a lot fruiter up-front. And I'm keen to try some good full-bodied
French's in the £10-£20 price range.

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:19:30 GMT, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> wrote:

>I agree with jcoulter, you might like the Cote du RHone wines, and of course
>the Chateauneuf-du-Pape. However, I´d also like to point you in the
>direction of the reds of Bandol, just West of Toulon. Big, muscular stuff
>with cellaring potential.
>

A lot of good suggestions from both of you

>White wines in the South are not as a rule made from Chard (there are of
>course exceptions). Look rather for the interesting thing made from grapes
>like Viognier (coming along in the Languedoc and not seldom mixed with
>Chard), bourbolenc, grenache blanc ...

I find southern viognier truly boring or slightly sickening, like
mediocre muscat can be. OTOH grenache blanc has great potential, and
some very nice wines.

Southern whites can be very fine wines.

Try the white from Chateau Mas Neuf in Costieres de Nimes, even better
go there and meet Luc, knows a lot more than just wine...

For a special higher priced wine (but still under 40 Euro) white
Grange des Peres is as rare as German Grenache, but nearby Mas de
Daumas Gassac makes a great white, often criticized (the owner has a
reputation for being highly obnoxious) but I maintain that it is a
great wine.

Try the unique wines of Antoine Arena, vermentino to make an italian
blush, and great muscat, not fortified. Most of his wines are vendange
tardive.

Excellent white from Preceptorie de Centernach, I think it's called
Terres Nouvelles or Terres Promises.

>We will be in our summer apartment from c. June 10th to July 4th. Do not
>hesitate to contact me if we can be of any help or assitance.

Aha, that means you are here for bouillabaisse (mid june) and we may
do a neat food festival near Aix on the 4th of july.

Mike

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:27:26 GMT, jcoulter
> wrote:

>"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in
:
>
>
>
>>
>> Some good wine is also made in the Luberon. We were very pleased with
>> the reds from Ch Val-Ioannis, and also with their whites, which are
>> made from local varietals, not Chardonnay.

I find that the ones you taste at the domaine taste nothing like the
ones you take home... very technological wine, lacks in soul...

>
>Well, then there is the matter of Cote de Provence which also produces
>some nice things,

Sorry to be pessimistic, but living here, I find Cotes de Provence is
mostly very mediocre. Even when it costs 20 Euro. There are
exceptions, of course.

Mike

On 18 Feb 2004 07:07:53 -0800, (cherie)
wrote:

>Thank you Nils and jcoulter, I can't wait to get started!
>Yes, I suppose my reference to the "South of France" is a bit vague.
>We are visiting quite a few areas, and I was trying to be brief (a tip
>from the "posting style guide---I've never posted a message before).
>Anyway, our trip starts with a few days in Paris, and then we are
>taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
>leaves from Lyon and travels throughout
>Macon,

Domaine de Bongran at Quintaine

>Burgundy,

Domaine Sylvie Esmonin

> Vienne,

Les Vins de Vienne, by Cuilleron, Gaillard, Villard.

>Cotesdu Rhone,

Domaine Marcel Richaud, Domaine de Gramenon

>Avignon,

Chateauneuf du Pape, try Domaine de la janasse, both colours.

>Marseille,

Good wine bar, La Part des Anges, near the old port, and good wine
shop, Caves Damiani, in the Capelette area.

> After the cruise, we will spend a few days in the Nice/Cannes

Nice, go to the bistrot Vin sur Vin, great wine collection, stuff that
has not yet made it to your part of the world, and it's a wine shop
too. Go rummage in the cellar, you are allowed.

Also, wine shop La Part des Anges.


Mike

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:19:30 GMT, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> > wrote:
>

<snip lots of excellent stuff>

> Aha, that means you are here for bouillabaisse (mid june) and we may
> do a neat food festival near Aix on the 4th of july.

Never fear, we´ll be there!!!

Cheers

Nils Gustaf
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Michael Bartlett" > skrev i meddelandet
news:1077126886.121569@shiraz...
> > I agree with jcoulter, you might like the Cote du RHone wines, and of
> course
> > the Chateauneuf-du-Pape. However, I´d also like to point you in the
> > direction of the reds of Bandol, just West of Toulon. Big, muscular
stuff
> > with cellaring potential.
>
> Nils - any particular recommendations? I've often battled with the light
> body of the French wines as (as you know) I was weaned on big New World
> wines from the Southern Hemisphere. Recently I've been playing with some
> French Syrah, in particular from the Rhone area and have really been
> enjoying them - I find them a bit less "musky" or "peppery" to the SA/AUS
> style and a lot fruiter up-front. And I'm keen to try some good
full-bodied
> French's in the £10-£20 price range.

Duh, Michael, discussing bandols with Mike T around is ... like using a
kangaroo stilt in a mine field, sort of ... he is without doubt the eminent
authority around here on Southern France, not least the Bandols ... however:
We always do a brisk business with St Anne Evenosc - taste their Cuv´ee
Collection 98% Mourvedre, huge ... also the reds of Gros Noré (and M pascal
who runs the place is ... a personality). I would, on the other hand, think
twice about the rosés - the prices have risen steeply, and the QPR is no
longer favorable ... There are others (Tour du Bon Temp, Lafran Veyrolle
which our neighbour imports) but those two are my favorites. The reds from
Bandol differs markeldy from many other Southern French wines in their
focussing the Mourvedre which arguably never gets better than it does in
Bandol. All reds are madfe with just three varietals - M, Grenache, and
Cinsault, so no Syrah, and comparatively less wood than in some other
districts.
The whites are made from Ugni Blanc and Clairette, can be charming (St Anne
makes some acceptable stuff) but prices are high, too high I feel.

I agree with Mike on the Cote de Provence wines - you can fill swimming
pools with mediocre and anonymous alcoholic fluids of a wine-like nature ...
.... apparently I hav ebeen in luck with the wines I tasted and bought home
from Val-Ioannis ...

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:


>>
>>Well, then there is the matter of Cote de Provence which also produces
>>some nice things,
>
> Sorry to be pessimistic, but living here, I find Cotes de Provence is
> mostly very mediocre. Even when it costs 20 Euro. There are
> exceptions, of course.
>
I was thinking of a wine from IIRC Coteaux d'aix en Provence with a name
like Dragon. It was however, as you say, a little pricy at the
restaurant that was serving it.

> Mike
>

(cherie) wrote in
om:

> Thank you Nils and jcoulter, I can't wait to get started!
> Yes, I suppose my reference to the "South of France" is a bit vague.
> We are visiting quite a few areas, and I was trying to be brief (a tip
> from the "posting style guide---I've never posted a message before).
> Anyway, our trip starts with a few days in Paris, and then we are
> taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
> leaves from Lyon and travels throughout Macon, Burgundy, Vienne, Cotes
> du Rhone, Ardeche Valley, Viviers, Provence, Avignon, Marseille, and
> Arles. After the cruise, we will spend a few days in the Nice/Cannes
> area on our own. It's a little overwhelming and very exciting as we
> have never been to France or anywhere in Europe for that matter! And
> like I've said, we are wine lovers, but have no exposure to French
> wines. Thanks for the advice. -Cherie

If your cruise stops in Tain l'Hermitage or across the river at Tournon
you might want to stop in a the cave cooperative in Tain which has a
large tasting room with an very expensive tasting menu.

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:57:51 GMT, jcoulter
> wrote:

>Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:
>
>
>>>
>>>Well, then there is the matter of Cote de Provence which also produces
>>>some nice things,
>>
>> Sorry to be pessimistic, but living here, I find Cotes de Provence is
>> mostly very mediocre. Even when it costs 20 Euro. There are
>> exceptions, of course.
>>
>I was thinking of a wine from IIRC Coteaux d'aix en Provence with a name
>like Dragon. It was however, as you say, a little pricy at the
>restaurant that was serving it.

Ah, but Coteaux d'Aix is already a step above, though I never heard of
Dragon. Try Chateau Revelette.

Mike

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:01:24 GMT, jcoulter
> wrote:

(cherie) wrote in
. com:
>
>> Thank you Nils and jcoulter, I can't wait to get started!
>> Yes, I suppose my reference to the "South of France" is a bit vague.
>> We are visiting quite a few areas, and I was trying to be brief (a tip
>> from the "posting style guide---I've never posted a message before).
>> Anyway, our trip starts with a few days in Paris, and then we are
>> taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
>> leaves from Lyon and travels throughout Macon, Burgundy, Vienne, Cotes
>> du Rhone, Ardeche Valley, Viviers, Provence, Avignon, Marseille, and
>> Arles. After the cruise, we will spend a few days in the Nice/Cannes
>> area on our own. It's a little overwhelming and very exciting as we
>> have never been to France or anywhere in Europe for that matter! And
>> like I've said, we are wine lovers, but have no exposure to French
>> wines. Thanks for the advice. -Cherie
>
>If your cruise stops in Tain l'Hermitage or across the river at Tournon
>you might want to stop in a the cave cooperative in Tain which has a
>large tasting room with an very expensive tasting menu.

And while in Tournon, try the restaurant Le Chaudron. On an average
day you will meet at least two winemakers there...

Mike

> >
> >>
> >
> >If your cruise stops in Tain l'Hermitage or across the river at Tournon
> >you might want to stop in a the cave cooperative in Tain which has a
> >large tasting room with an very expensive tasting menu.
>
> And while in Tournon, try the restaurant Le Chaudron. On an average
> day you will meet at least two winemakers there...
>
> Mike

Yes, Mike, the cruise does stop in Tain l'Heritage, and docks there
overnight as well. Thank you for your suggestion regarding the cave
cooperative. As far as Tournon, all I can determine from my brochure
is that we take a train excurion through Tournon to the Ardeche
region. By docking in Tain, will that bring us close enough to
conveniently visit Le Chaudron for dinner? We also dock overnight in
Lyon--any suggestions for wining and dining there? Or Cannes?--we
will be visiting Cannes for three nights after the cruise.

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
> On 18 Feb 2004 07:07:53 -0800, (cherie)
> wrote:
>
> >Thank you Nils and jcoulter, I can't wait to get started!
> >Yes, I suppose my reference to the "South of France" is a bit vague.
> >We are visiting quite a few areas, and I was trying to be brief (a tip
> >from the "posting style guide---I've never posted a message before).
> >Anyway, our trip starts with a few days in Paris, and then we are
> >taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
> >leaves from Lyon and travels throughout
> >Macon,
>
> Domaine de Bongran at Quintaine
>
> >Burgundy,
>
> Domaine Sylvie Esmonin
>
> > Vienne,
>
> Les Vins de Vienne, by Cuilleron, Gaillard, Villard.
>
> >Cotesdu Rhone,
>
> Domaine Marcel Richaud, Domaine de Gramenon
>
> >Avignon,
>
> Chateauneuf du Pape, try Domaine de la janasse, both colours.
>
> >Marseille,
>
> Good wine bar, La Part des Anges, near the old port, and good wine
> shop, Caves Damiani, in the Capelette area.
>
> > After the cruise, we will spend a few days in the Nice/Cannes
>
> Nice, go to the bistrot Vin sur Vin, great wine collection, stuff that
> has not yet made it to your part of the world, and it's a wine shop
> too. Go rummage in the cellar, you are allowed.
>
> Also, wine shop La Part des Anges.
>
>
> Mike

Ah, this is wonderful. Thanks so much.
-Cherie

On 19 Feb 2004 07:48:34 -0800, (cherie)
wrote:

>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >If your cruise stops in Tain l'Hermitage or across the river at Tournon
>> >you might want to stop in a the cave cooperative in Tain which has a
>> >large tasting room with an very expensive tasting menu.
>>
>> And while in Tournon, try the restaurant Le Chaudron. On an average
>> day you will meet at least two winemakers there...
>>
>> Mike
>
>Yes, Mike, the cruise does stop in Tain l'Heritage, and docks there
>overnight as well. Thank you for your suggestion regarding the cave
>cooperative.

Wasn't me, but I agree. Try other local wines, Crozes hermitages by
Graillot or by Domaine des Entrefaux

>As far as Tournon, all I can determine from my brochure
>is that we take a train excurion through Tournon to the Ardeche
>region. By docking in Tain, will that bring us close enough to
>conveniently visit Le Chaudron for dinner?

It's across the bridge. You can walk...

>We also dock overnight in
>Lyon--any suggestions for wining and dining there?

A memorable experience with an upcoming chef, Manuel Viron, and his
Maison Borie, go now before the guides rate him (he will get a star, I
bet), for now the price remains affordable at 50 Euro for the fixed
menu. The restaurant itself is a work of art. Tremendous wine list.

>Or Cannes?--we
>will be visiting Cannes for three nights after the cruise.

Cannes and the Cote d'Azur are not my cup of tea, but I am told Palm
Square is very good.

Mike

(cherie) wrote in
om:


The Tain/Tournon area is very compact. My wife and I took a similar
river trip two years ago, she took the train (steam train is a huge
thing in Tournon the boilers or some important part were invented there)
I walked across the bridge and came back with a case of wine form the
Cooperative.

Mike is right though about other offerings. Tain may be the best wine
stop on your tour (OK, you will have a side trip to Beaune but beware of
what is offered on a tour) I whole heartedly endorse the Graillot, but
it is hard to go wrong (well you should experience the cooperatives
range of whites to know that not everything there is superior but the
Crozes Hermitage is very good QPR and the St Joseph is nice, but if you
are looking for a better qulaity there are the aforementioned by Mike as
well as Jaboulet and Chapoutier for large houses.

You can walk the whole area easily.

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
> On 19 Feb 2004 07:48:34 -0800, (cherie)
> wrote:
>
>
> Wasn't me, but I agree. Try other local wines, Crozes hermitages by
> Graillot or by Domaine des Entrefaux
>
>
>
> Yes, sorry, I figured out after I posted my message that I was
confusing the authors. I think I have figured out the system now!
(Thank you too, jcoulter...) I'm very grateful for all the advise,
thank you so much. I wish I could get on the plane today. In the
meantime, I have LOTS of wines to taste. Last night I tried the CDR
Parallel 45-- a pretty good introduction (particularly for the low
price), but I expect I'll find ones I'll like more.

-Cherie

> >Or Cannes?--we
> >will be visiting Cannes for three nights after the cruise.
>
> Cannes and the Cote d'Azur are not my cup of tea, but I am told Palm
> Square is very good.


On the whole, I find Cannes a dreary and rather exploited place - the only
thing I really like to visit there is the Market Hall, except on Mondays
when they have flea market. Besides, they have more interesting produce in
the Antibes market place.

RAther, go for Nice. I´ll gladly second Mike´s suggestions there - word of
advice, BTW, stick to the traditional courses in Vin sur Vin, they are
excellent while some of the more 'creative' things have been a little ...
too creative. I especially remember a veal cassoulet with 'french fries' and
a bottle of ... can´t remember, young red from Languedoc, excellent.

I rather like 'L´Âne Rouge', for an expensive lunch. Definitely _not_
creative and most likely will never get more stars than the one they have,
but, still, I like it.

BTW, when in Tain, you could of course visit Chapoutier´s tasting room - a
bit on the expensive side, but not bad. Also, there is of course (off topic)
the Valrhona choclate tasting room, if you like chocolate ... in Tain there
is a one-star restaurant, Rive Gauche, which I´d suggest you avoid, because
it´s a dull, stuffed-shirt place with oodles of pretension ... just my
opinion of course ...

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"cherie" in om...
> ... I have no exposure to French wines (with the exception
> of Champagne), and have always gravitated most heavily towards
> California wines.

Why did you gravitate first toward California wines, I am interested.

It's a serious question, much more so than may be obvious. (I follow what
shapes people's wine educations and have been interested in comments like
cherie's, above, for three decades. I'm from California but not in the wine
industry.)

(Email if you prefer, note instructions within my address in the header.)

Max Hauser

Sorry if I'am repeating (I have not read all the answers)

But I would try a good Cahors (Chateau Lamartine, Chateau Lagrezette)

GG

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2004 07:48:34 -0800, (cherie)
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>If your cruise stops in Tain l'Hermitage or across the river at Tournon
>>>>you might want to stop in a the cave cooperative in Tain which has a
>>>>large tasting room with an very expensive tasting menu.
>>>
>>>And while in Tournon, try the restaurant Le Chaudron. On an average
>>>day you will meet at least two winemakers there...
>>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>Yes, Mike, the cruise does stop in Tain l'Heritage, and docks there
>>overnight as well. Thank you for your suggestion regarding the cave
>>cooperative.
>
>
> Wasn't me, but I agree. Try other local wines, Crozes hermitages by
> Graillot or by Domaine des Entrefaux
>
>
>>As far as Tournon, all I can determine from my brochure
>>is that we take a train excurion through Tournon to the Ardeche
>>region. By docking in Tain, will that bring us close enough to
>>conveniently visit Le Chaudron for dinner?
>
>
> It's across the bridge. You can walk...
>
>
>>We also dock overnight in
>>Lyon--any suggestions for wining and dining there?
>
>
> A memorable experience with an upcoming chef, Manuel Viron, and his
> Maison Borie, go now before the guides rate him (he will get a star, I
> bet), for now the price remains affordable at 50 Euro for the fixed
> menu. The restaurant itself is a work of art. Tremendous wine list.
>
>
>>Or Cannes?--we
>>will be visiting Cannes for three nights after the cruise.
>
>
> Cannes and the Cote d'Azur are not my cup of tea, but I am told Palm
> Square is very good.
>
> Mike
>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:26:39 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>you have the opportunity (and the $$$) you should try a 2002 Condrieu
>from Cuilleron or Gangloff and/or a 1999 Cote Rotie from Ogier, Gaillard,
>Gangloff or Jamet.

Super stuff.

> The 2001 Cote du Rhones are a
>great introduction to the wines of the Southern Rhone.

Also in Cotes du Rhone, try Domaine Rouge Garance, and for something
far out, try Domaine Viret, they practice something called
cosmoculture... (theme from the Twilight Zone playing)...

Hey, drop a line, maybe we can meet when you hit the coast, I'm near
Bandol, I can take you to visit some upcoming unknowns...

Mike

"Max Hauser" > wrote in message >...
> "cherie" in om...
> > ... I have no exposure to French wines (with the exception
> > of Champagne), and have always gravitated most heavily towards
> > California wines.
>
> Why did you gravitate first toward California wines, I am interested.
>
> It's a serious question, much more so than may be obvious. (I follow what
> shapes people's wine educations and have been interested in comments like
> cherie's, above, for three decades. I'm from California but not in the wine
> industry.)
>
> (Email if you prefer, note instructions within my address in the header.)
>
> Max Hauser

Max:

That's a wonderful question. When I first started drinking and
appreciating red wine, say 10-15 years ago, I found that every time I
tried anything that was not a California Merlot or Cabernet, it was
just too thin for me. I generally only liked the richer, bigger,
bolder red wines that were also smooth with a hint of fruitiness. I
have branched out a little in the past few years, and have found that
I love Amerone, and I like many varieties of Shiraz, Syrah, and can
appreciate Zinfandel (although many are a little too sweet for me).
I've never been much for Chianti--the few I've tried were too thin.
French wine was just one type I never tried much, I really can't say
why. I think I tasted some French red wine when I was 16 and hated
it, though I think at that age I would have hated any red wine. I did
try a French merlot (Soleil?) a few months ago but found it totally
unpleasing--too rustic. My favorite sparkling wines/champagnes,
however, are the French ones. As far as white wine goes, when I was
young and knew nothing about wine, I drank mostly sweeter Reislings,
and occasionally I drank white zinfandel. As I grew slightly older, I
gave up the white zin completely and just drank Reislings, and
branched out to some that were more dry. Now and for the past several
years, I really only drink Chardonnay when it comes to white. No
other reason than I just can't seem to appreciate Pinot Gris or
Sauvignon Blanc, they just don't do it for me. And why I always
gravitate to California Chardonnays, I don't know--ignorance, habit?
I'm not even sure what other Chardonnays exist. So again, I think one
reason that I have gravitated toward California wines in general may
just be my exposure level--I have tried more of them throughout the
years, and I also toured Northern California wine country about 7
years ago which increased my interest as well.

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message >...
> > >
>
>
> On the whole, I find Cannes a dreary and rather exploited place - the only
> thing I really like to visit there is the Market Hall, except on Mondays
> when they have flea market. Besides, they have more interesting produce in
> the Antibes market place.
>
> RAther, go for Nice. I´ll gladly second Mike´s suggestions there - word of
> advice, BTW, stick to the traditional courses in Vin sur Vin, they are
> excellent while some of the more 'creative' things have been a little ...
> too creative. I especially remember a veal cassoulet with 'french fries' and
> a bottle of ... can´t remember, young red from Languedoc, excellent.
>
> I rather like 'L´Âne Rouge', for an expensive lunch. Definitely _not_
> creative and most likely will never get more stars than the one they have,
> but, still, I like it.
>
> BTW, when in Tain, you could of course visit Chapoutier´s tasting room - a
> bit on the expensive side, but not bad. Also, there is of course (off topic)
> the Valrhona choclate tasting room, if you like chocolate ... in Tain there
> is a one-star restaurant, Rive Gauche, which I´d suggest you avoid, because
> it´s a dull, stuffed-shirt place with oodles of pretension ... just my
> opinion of course ...
>
> Cheers
>
> Nils Gustaf

Nils--

Thanks for the advice. And we LOVE chocolate, so I will gladly add
the Valrhona tasting room to my list. I'm disappointed to hear that
both you and Mike are not fans of Cannes. Since we are going to end
our cruise in Arles, my travel agent suggested we drive to Cannes and
spend a few days at the Hotel Martinez, relaxing on the beach. Their
website is certainly enticing enough, if nothing else! On another
subject, I recently came across some previous postings where you wrote
of the Zenato Ripasso. Last night my husband and I spotted it on the
wines-by-the-glass menu at the restaurant we were dining at. We each
had a glass, and really enjoyed it. So smooth, really a lovely wine,
much like an Amerone. So thanks once again for the tip.

-Cherie

On 20 Feb 2004 08:00:31 -0800, (cherie)
wrote:

> I'm disappointed to hear that
>both you and Mike are not fans of Cannes.

Let me add that, other than during Cannes film festival week, the
average age there is higher than the average august daytime
temperature in degrees Fahrenheit. Nothing against the older crowd, I
am no spring chicken myself, and I will not speak for that kid Nils,
but no matter whether you are in your 20's or your 70's, you might
prefer a more hopping place...

Mike

Mark Lipton > wrote in message >...
> cherie wrote:
>
> >
>
> Have great fun, cherie. You are about to venture in to the heartland of
> fine wine. You may find that this trip forever changes your taste in
> wine...
>
> Mark Lipton

Thank you, Mark. I have a feeling you are right. In fact, I think
that simply being privy to this newsgroup may forever change, or at
least, greatly diversify, my taste in wine.

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:26:39 -0500, Mark Lipton >
> wrote:
>

>
> Hey, drop a line, maybe we can meet when you hit the coast, I'm near
> Bandol, I can take you to visit some upcoming unknowns...
>
> Mike

Thanks, Mike, what a nice offer. I believe we will be renting a car
in Arles and driving to Cannes around the 10th of July or so. We'll
keep in touch.

-Cherie

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i meddelandet
news
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:26:39 -0500, Mark Lipton >
> wrote:

> Hey, drop a line, maybe we can meet when you hit the coast, I'm near
> Bandol, I can take you to visit some upcoming unknowns...
>
> Mike
<fake lady´s voice, fake US accent>
Yes Mike, please do!
</fake lady´s voice, fake US accent>

Cheers

.... Did I fool you? ...
Ah. It´s the nose, right? Always gives me away, the nose ...
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"cherie" > skrev i meddelandet
om...
> "Max Hauser" > wrote in message
>...
> > "cherie" in om...

> Now and for the past several
> years, I really only drink Chardonnay when it comes to white. No
> other reason than I just can't seem to appreciate Pinot Gris or
> Sauvignon Blanc, they just don't do it for me.
Great cow, with all the lovely Riesling about!!! Riesling, the most
underevaluated varietal (white) in the world! ALl the goody-goodies from
Rheingau, Mosel, Alsace, even Alto Adige!
> And why I always
> gravitate to California Chardonnays, I don't know--ignorance, habit?
> I'm not even sure what other Chardonnays exist.

You´re joking, right? <Roger Rabbit> p-p-p-p-leeeze tell me you´re
joking!!!!! </Roger Rabbit>

Cheers
Nils Gustaf
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

(cherie) wrote in
om:

> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in
> message >...
>> > >
>>
>>
>> On the whole, I find Cannes a dreary and rather exploited place - the
>> only thing I really like to visit there is the Market Hall, except on
>> Mondays when they have flea market. Besides, they have more
>> interesting produce in the Antibes market place.
>>
>> RAther, go for Nice. I´ll gladly second Mike´s suggestions there -
>> word of advice, BTW, stick to the traditional courses in Vin sur Vin,
>> they are excellent while some of the more 'creative' things have been
>> a little ... too creative. I especially remember a veal cassoulet
>> with 'french fries' and a bottle of ... can´t remember, young red
>> from Languedoc, excellent.
>>
>> I rather like 'L´Âne Rouge', for an expensive lunch. Definitely _not_
>> creative and most likely will never get more stars than the one they
>> have, but, still, I like it.
>>
>> BTW, when in Tain, you could of course visit Chapoutier´s tasting
>> room - a bit on the expensive side, but not bad. Also, there is of
>> course (off topic) the Valrhona choclate tasting room, if you like
>> chocolate ... in Tain there is a one-star restaurant, Rive Gauche,
>> which I´d suggest you avoid, because it´s a dull, stuffed-shirt place
>> with oodles of pretension ... just my opinion of course ...
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Nils Gustaf
>
> Nils--
>
> Thanks for the advice. And we LOVE chocolate, so I will gladly add
> the Valrhona tasting room to my list. I'm disappointed to hear that
> both you and Mike are not fans of Cannes. Since we are going to end
> our cruise in Arles, my travel agent suggested we drive to Cannes and
> spend a few days at the Hotel Martinez, relaxing on the beach. Their
> website is certainly enticing enough, if nothing else! On another
> subject, I recently came across some previous postings where you wrote
> of the Zenato Ripasso. Last night my husband and I spotted it on the
> wines-by-the-glass menu at the restaurant we were dining at. We each
> had a glass, and really enjoyed it. So smooth, really a lovely wine,
> much like an Amerone. So thanks once again for the tip.
>
> -Cherie

I would add that my experience with Cannes was nice enough and the
Martinez is a destination in itself, but I liked Villefranche sur mer
better even though there is not even a pretention to a beach there, but
then Cannes only thinks it has one :-)

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" in news
> "cherie" skrev i meddelandet
> om...
>
> Great cow, with all the lovely Riesling about!!! Riesling, the most
> underevaluated varietal (white) in the world!

I can think of one or two ambassadors from Germany who would warm to those
comments, several producers, and many wine enthusiasts worldwide besides.
"The most undervalued" white varietal in the world is the idiom variation
here in the US, among those who know about Riesling. ("Underevaluated" is
very similar in feel to "undervalued," as words go; more international,
leans toward British English.) Having "got it" about Riesling, I am torn
between singing its praises and asking you discreetly to quiet down before
too many people hear.

> > And why I always
> > gravitate to California Chardonnays, I don't know--ignorance, habit?
> > I'm not even sure what other Chardonnays exist.
>
> You´re joking, right? <Roger Rabbit> p-p-p-p-leeeze tell me you´re
> joking!!!!! </Roger Rabbit>
>
> Nils Gustaf

Fear not, this is very usual in the US. Many people outside US criticize
California Chardonnays because (most of them) smell or taste not like
Chardonnay but stylistically narrow and of course over-oaked. Look, said a
woman from Scotland to me recently (she will probably read this) -- It's the
wrong color! (She was comparing a typical California Chardonnay to one, I
think, from South Africa in a less over-oaked and more individual style, and
less gratuitously yellow.) But the US is, demonstrably and measurably, a
culture fairly new to wine; after all they drank nothing, legally, as
recently as 1933, and as of 1940 some two-thirds of the wine consumed was
fortified (Source: Schoonmaker and Marvel, _American Wines,_ 1941).
Chardonnay gets them trying things, and within a few hundred years or less
they surely will transcend it. Those of you in the old world should know
patience.

Max

> we are
> taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
> leaves from Lyon and travels throughout Macon, Burgundy, Vienne, Cotes
> du Rhone, Ardeche Valley, Viviers, Provence, Avignon, Marseille, and
> Arles. ... -Cherie

Oh, that's all. No problem! :-)

(45724 declared Burgundy proprietors alone, in Yoxall's admittedly dated
count, but still a lot for a brief cruise).


"Mike Tommasi" in news narrows the selection slightly:

> >Burgundy,
>
> Domaine Sylvie Esmonin

A good representative. By coincidence the "other" Esmonins are here in the
San Francisco area (or will be shortly, guests of a US Burgundy importer who
is doing a wine dinner with them.)

-- Max

--------
"Goûtons voir si le vin est bon ..."

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> Great cow, with all the lovely Riesling about!!! Riesling, the
> most underevaluated varietal (white) in the world! ALl the
> goody-goodies from Rheingau, Mosel, Alsace, even Alto Adige!

You're joking not mentionig Austria?! p-p-p-p-leeeze tell me
you're joking!

M.

"Max Hauser" > wrote in message >...
> > we are
> > taking a wine-themed river cruise along the Rhone and the Saone which
> > leaves from Lyon and travels throughout Macon, Burgundy, Vienne, Cotes
> > du Rhone, Ardeche Valley, Viviers, Provence, Avignon, Marseille, and
> > Arles. ... -Cherie
>
> Oh, that's all. No problem! :-)
>
> (45724 declared Burgundy proprietors alone, in Yoxall's admittedly dated
> count, but still a lot for a brief cruise).
>
>

Oh, well then, I guess I have the right to be overwhelmed! It is a
lot, isn't it. Lucky me.

-Cherie

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message >...
> "cherie" > skrev i meddelandet
> om...
> > "Max Hauser" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "cherie" in om...
>
> > Now and for the past several
> > years, I really only drink Chardonnay when it comes to white. No
> > other reason than I just can't seem to appreciate Pinot Gris or
> > Sauvignon Blanc, they just don't do it for me.
> Great cow, with all the lovely Riesling about!!! Riesling, the most
> underevaluated varietal (white) in the world! ALl the goody-goodies from
> Rheingau, Mosel, Alsace, even Alto Adige!
> > And why I always
> > gravitate to California Chardonnays, I don't know--ignorance, habit?
> > I'm not even sure what other Chardonnays exist.
>
> You´re joking, right? <Roger Rabbit> p-p-p-p-leeeze tell me you´re
> joking!!!!! </Roger Rabbit>
>
> Cheers
> Nils Gustaf

Oh Nils, I had a feeling I might be giving a few of you gentlemen
heart attacks with my comments. Sigh. I decided being genuinely
honest was only fair in light of Max's genuinely honest question. I
don't know why I've strayed from Reislings in recent years, I'm going
to have to get back into that exploration. But I still don't like the
Pinot Gris/Pinot Griglio/Savignon Blancs, from what I can tell.
(defiantly sticking out tongue) And I'm not joking about
Chardonnay...I love Chardonnay but I am totally Americanized.
Actually, I think I was poured a glass of French? Chardonnay not to
long ago at a restaurant, and it thoroughly confused me. (laughing
now)--You must really be beginning to hate me. I'm sorry (serious
now), if I am offending you by not being up to the standards of this
group, I will gracefully bow out of the group and simply observe.
Really.

-Cherie

"Max Hauser" > wrote in message >...
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" in news
> > "cherie" skrev i meddelandet
> > om...
> >
> > Great cow, with all the lovely Riesling about!!! Riesling, the most
> > underevaluated varietal (white) in the world!
>
> I can think of one or two ambassadors from Germany who would warm to those
> comments, several producers, and many wine enthusiasts worldwide besides.
> "The most undervalued" white varietal in the world is the idiom variation
> here in the US, among those who know about Riesling. ("Underevaluated" is
> very similar in feel to "undervalued," as words go; more international,
> leans toward British English.) Having "got it" about Riesling, I am torn
> between singing its praises and asking you discreetly to quiet down before
> too many people hear.
>
> > > And why I always
> > > gravitate to California Chardonnays, I don't know--ignorance, habit?
> > > I'm not even sure what other Chardonnays exist.
> >
> > You´re joking, right? <Roger Rabbit> p-p-p-p-leeeze tell me you´re
> > joking!!!!! </Roger Rabbit>
> >
> > Nils Gustaf
>
> Fear not, this is very usual in the US. Many people outside US criticize
> California Chardonnays because (most of them) smell or taste not like
> Chardonnay but stylistically narrow and of course over-oaked. Look, said a
> woman from Scotland to me recently (she will probably read this) -- It's the
> wrong color! (She was comparing a typical California Chardonnay to one, I
> think, from South Africa in a less over-oaked and more individual style, and
> less gratuitously yellow.) But the US is, demonstrably and measurably, a
> culture fairly new to wine; after all they drank nothing, legally, as
> recently as 1933, and as of 1940 some two-thirds of the wine consumed was
> fortified (Source: Schoonmaker and Marvel, _American Wines,_ 1941).
> Chardonnay gets them trying things, and within a few hundred years or less
> they surely will transcend it. Those of you in the old world should know
> patience.
>
> Max

Max, I thinks that sounds right on the mark. What do you suppose
would be a good Chardonnay (not from California) for me to attempt to
diversify a little? To give you an idea of a couple of basic
California Chardonnays that I enjoy--I would probably say Sterling and
Edna Valley. Kendall Jackson's not bad either, especially for the
under $10 price.

-Cherie

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
> On 20 Feb 2004 08:00:31 -0800, (cherie)
> wrote:
>
> > I'm disappointed to hear that
> >both you and Mike are not fans of Cannes.
>
> Let me add that, other than during Cannes film festival week, the
> average age there is higher than the average august daytime
> temperature in degrees Fahrenheit. Nothing against the older crowd, I
> am no spring chicken myself, and I will not speak for that kid Nils,
> but no matter whether you are in your 20's or your 70's, you might
> prefer a more hopping place...
>
> Mike


Wow, it's just getting better and better, huh? We are in our upper
30's, by the way. But we are not so much the "clubbing" type...more
the wining and dining type. As long as there are good restaurants
around and we are at more of a destination resort (which I hear the
Martinez is), we should be okay. The 10 days prior to Cannes we'll
have the chance to see all kinds of places (including Paris)... Hey,
Mike, do you know anything about bourbons available in France? In
addition to red wine, my husband is a fan of premium bourbons...in the
states we usually come across Blantans (his favorite), Basil Hayden,
Bakers, Bookers, Woodford Reserve, and a few others. Anything
different you know of over there (or here for that matter) he can try?

-Cherie