On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:52:14 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:54 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>
>>>A person who consumes no animal products
>>>has no connection to the treatment of livestock
>>
>> They only contribute to the deaths of wildlife with their lifestyle
>
>Vegan agriculture also supports wildlife.

"Wild animals on average suffer more than farm animals,
I think that's obvious." - "Dutch"

>>but veganism does nothing for livestock.
>
>That's not true, less demand may lead to less crowding and slower factory
>lines

More likely it would go the other way.

>, that helps livestock. Consuming meat doesn't help them.

"Every consumer choice promotes animals to experience
life." - Dutch

"I am fully aware that billions of animals exist only because
humans raise them for food, that's obvious." - "Dutch"

"The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
has positive or negative value to the animal." - "Dutch"

"Good "lives" (sequences of physical and mental
experiences) are beneficial to animals." - "Dutch"

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:52:14 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:54 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>A person who consumes no animal products
>>>>has no connection to the treatment of livestock
>>>
>>> They only contribute to the deaths of wildlife with their lifestyle
>>
>>Vegan agriculture also supports wildlife.
>
> "Wild animals on average suffer more than farm animals,
> I think that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>
>>>but veganism does nothing for livestock.
>>
>>That's not true, less demand may lead to less crowding and slower factory
>>lines
>
> More likely it would go the other way.
>
>>, that helps livestock. Consuming meat doesn't help them.
>
> "Every consumer choice promotes animals to experience
> life." - Dutch
>
> "I am fully aware that billions of animals exist only because
> humans raise them for food, that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>
> "The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
> has positive or negative value to the animal." - "Dutch"
>
> "Good "lives" (sequences of physical and mental
> experiences) are beneficial to animals." - "Dutch"

Thanks for pasting in my points, too bad you can't grasp them.

>

Demystifying Vegan Nutrition: A Starter Guide

http://bostonvegan.org/nutrition

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:51:08 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:

>
>
><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:52:14 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>
>>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:54 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>A person who consumes no animal products
>>>>>has no connection to the treatment of livestock
>>>>
>>>> They only contribute to the deaths of wildlife with their lifestyle
>>>
>>>Vegan agriculture also supports wildlife.
>>
>> "Wild animals on average suffer more than farm animals,
>> I think that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>
>>>>but veganism does nothing for livestock.
>>>
>>>That's not true, less demand may lead to less crowding and slower factory
>>>lines
>>
>> More likely it would go the other way.
>>
>>>, that helps livestock. Consuming meat doesn't help them.
>>
>> "Every consumer choice promotes animals to experience
>> life." - Dutch
>>
>> "I am fully aware that billions of animals exist only because
>> humans raise them for food, that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>
>> "The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
>> has positive or negative value to the animal." - "Dutch"
>>
>> "Good "lives" (sequences of physical and mental
>> experiences) are beneficial to animals." - "Dutch"
>
>Thanks for pasting in my points, too bad you can't grasp them.

They refer to how consumers influence livestock.

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:51:08 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:52:14 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>
>>>><dh@.> wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:54 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>A person who consumes no animal products
>>>>>>has no connection to the treatment of livestock
>>>>>
>>>>> They only contribute to the deaths of wildlife with their lifestyle
>>>>
>>>>Vegan agriculture also supports wildlife.
>>>
>>> "Wild animals on average suffer more than farm animals,
>>> I think that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>>
>>>>>but veganism does nothing for livestock.
>>>>
>>>>That's not true, less demand may lead to less crowding and slower
>>>>factory
>>>>lines
>>>
>>> More likely it would go the other way.
>>>
>>>>, that helps livestock. Consuming meat doesn't help them.
>>>
>>> "Every consumer choice promotes animals to experience
>>> life." - Dutch
>>>
>>> "I am fully aware that billions of animals exist only because
>>> humans raise them for food, that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>>
>>> "The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
>>> has positive or negative value to the animal." - "Dutch"
>>>
>>> "Good "lives" (sequences of physical and mental
>>> experiences) are beneficial to animals." - "Dutch"
>>
>>Thanks for pasting in my points, too bad you can't grasp them.
>
> They refer to how consumers influence livestock.

That's deep.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:12:42 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:51:08 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:52:14 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>><dh@.> wrote in message
om...
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:54 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A person who consumes no animal products
>>>>>>>has no connection to the treatment of livestock
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They only contribute to the deaths of wildlife with their lifestyle
>>>>>
>>>>>Vegan agriculture also supports wildlife.
>>>>
>>>> "Wild animals on average suffer more than farm animals,
>>>> I think that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>>>
>>>>>>but veganism does nothing for livestock.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's not true, less demand may lead to less crowding and slower
>>>>>factory
>>>>>lines
>>>>
>>>> More likely it would go the other way.
>>>>
>>>>>, that helps livestock. Consuming meat doesn't help them.
>>>>
>>>> "Every consumer choice promotes animals to experience
>>>> life." - Dutch
>>>>
>>>> "I am fully aware that billions of animals exist only because
>>>> humans raise them for food, that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>>>
>>>> "The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
>>>> has positive or negative value to the animal." - "Dutch"
>>>>
>>>> "Good "lives" (sequences of physical and mental
>>>> experiences) are beneficial to animals." - "Dutch"
>>>
>>>Thanks for pasting in my points, too bad you can't grasp them.
>>
>> They refer to how consumers influence livestock.
>
>That's deep.

Not really, but if it seems so then that could explain why you can't get
"down" to the level of thinking about the animals. It would be a jump up for you
in reality. I did it when I was a kid by watching my chickens for hours at a
time, until they chilled out and just did what they did and I could get an idea
what life was like for them. You might not be able to do anything like that or
appreciate it if you could, but that's why I keep suggesting you go spend some
time checking out some local cows or something and trying. IF you ever try, be
sure you do it alone. It would be best if there was no other human in sight.

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:12:42 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:51:08 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><dh@.> wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:52:14 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>><dh@.> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:dln7f7p2plcru205msb6o6bgv23lgt6r7v@4ax. com...
>>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:54 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A person who consumes no animal products
>>>>>>>>has no connection to the treatment of livestock
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They only contribute to the deaths of wildlife with their
>>>>>>> lifestyle
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Vegan agriculture also supports wildlife.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Wild animals on average suffer more than farm animals,
>>>>> I think that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>>>>
>>>>>>>but veganism does nothing for livestock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's not true, less demand may lead to less crowding and slower
>>>>>>factory
>>>>>>lines
>>>>>
>>>>> More likely it would go the other way.
>>>>>
>>>>>>, that helps livestock. Consuming meat doesn't help them.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Every consumer choice promotes animals to experience
>>>>> life." - Dutch
>>>>>
>>>>> "I am fully aware that billions of animals exist only because
>>>>> humans raise them for food, that's obvious." - "Dutch"
>>>>>
>>>>> "The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
>>>>> has positive or negative value to the animal." - "Dutch"
>>>>>
>>>>> "Good "lives" (sequences of physical and mental
>>>>> experiences) are beneficial to animals." - "Dutch"
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for pasting in my points, too bad you can't grasp them.
>>>
>>> They refer to how consumers influence livestock.
>>
>>That's deep.
>
> Not really,

I know, that was sarcasm. You are incapable of grasping any fact and logical
argument that discredits the LoL.

> but if it seems so

It doesn't, it seems what it is, meaningless.

> then that could explain why you can't get
> "down" to the level of thinking about the animals.

I can think about the animals just fine, I don't need to get "down" to do
it.

> It would be a jump up for you
> in reality. I did it when I was a kid by watching my chickens for hours at
> a
> time, until they chilled out and just did what they did and I could get an
> idea
> what life was like for them.

Is that when you decided it would be fun to raise roosters to entertain you
and your redneck buddies by fighting each other in a pen?

>You might not be able to do anything like that or
> appreciate it if you could, but that's why I keep suggesting you go spend
> some
> time checking out some local cows or something and trying. IF you ever
> try, be
> sure you do it alone. It would be best if there was no other human in
> sight.

No amount of "appreciation" for livestock is going to make me engage in the
Logic of the Larder, which is not "appreciation" at all, it is an attempt to
use the animals' lives to mount a lame and hollow argument against vegans.

On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:16:56 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:

>
>
><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>
>> It would be a jump up for you
>> in reality. I did it when I was a kid by watching my chickens for hours at
>> a
>> time, until they chilled out and just did what they did and I could get an
>> idea
>> what life was like for them.
>
>Is that when you decided it would be fun to raise roosters

Nope.

> to entertain you
>and your redneck buddies by fighting each other in a pen?

I never cared much for the fight, but loved the birds and loved raising
them. I'm convinced they would rather fight for their life in a pit than be hung
by their feet and have their throat slit, even if there's not a single
eliminationist in the planet with enough intelligence to comprehend how that
could possibly be the case.

>>You might not be able to do anything like that or
>> appreciate it if you could, but that's why I keep suggesting you go spend
>> some
>> time checking out some local cows or something and trying. IF you ever
>> try, be
>> sure you do it alone. It would be best if there was no other human in
>> sight.
>
>No amount of "appreciation" for livestock is going to make me engage in
>...[having appreciation for when decent AW results in lives of positive value
>for livestock], which is not "appreciation" at all,

That's a blatant lie ONLY an eliminationist has reason to tell.

>it is an attempt to
>use the animals' lives to mount a lame and hollow argument against vegans.

It's a significant part of the vegans' lame and hollow argument against meat
eaters that you don't want people to take into consideration.