Last night 11/22/03 went to a Houston Vegetarian club meeting/thanksgiving
dinner. It was great. About 55 of us gathered at the Moveable Feast
restaurant. The dinner was a tofu turkey, stuffing, yams, gravy, green beans
with iced herbal tea for drink. Dessert was a delicious fruit crumble pie
thing. Great company-mostly vegans.I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who
told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing cancer and the president
of the HVS. He works for the big oil giant Exxon/Mobil and the company
donated roughly $2000 a year to HVS. The monies is wisely spent on
spreading the Vegan diet. Across from us was this man who is getting a
petitions signed where the Houston school system would serve a vegetarian or
vegan options at lunch for students. Presently there is only hot dogs ,
pizza etc. Behind me was this interesting ex chemist for a nuclear reactor
who has mad major changes in her lifestyle and is the webmaster of the HVS
web page. My 18 year old daughter accompanied me and we had a very enjoyable
evening and satisfying early vegan Thanksgiving dinner(with more to come).
Michael
http://www.vshouston.org/

Michael Balarama wrote:
<snip>
> I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who
> told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing cancer...

The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other
disease. It appears casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to
cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who write (and read)
pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links
between casein and such diseases.

Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein
(control group) diets had some interesting findings. The mice were
induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors.
When 100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed
rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%) in experiment B (P <
0.002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO
differences in tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower
mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and multiplicity (P
< 0.007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results
indicate that diets rich in soy reduce the incidence of
chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as
soy in reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity.

[my emphasis for experiment A]
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/con...stract/9/1/113

So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial,
at least with DMBA-induced tumors. Note that casein is typically used as
a control protein. From the discussion section of the full article:
Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein
as the "control" protein source and compare all dietary effects
to the results of groups fed casein. One possibility not often
discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of
developing DMBA-induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets
containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were true, our
data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein
isolate could promote tumor formation compared with whey. This
is an area requiring further research.

That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the
presence of DMBA. It's still important to note the researchers'
comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may well prove to be
more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor
multiplicity in some types of cancer. Another study has found that
"Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein isolate] was effective in
reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in
reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been
linked to certain kinds of cancer, including bladder cancer.

First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer):
http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab325a.html#59

Second souce (bladder cancer study):
http://tinyurl.com/w76v

I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but
doctors who state that "casein causes cancer" are making unscientific
claims until such findings are made from studies.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Balarama wrote:
> <snip>
> > I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who
> > told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing cancer...
>
> The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other
> disease. It appears casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to
> cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who write (and read)
> pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links
> between casein and such diseases.
>
> Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein
> (control group) diets had some interesting findings. The mice were
> induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors.
> When 100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed
> rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%) in experiment B (P <
> 0.002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO
> differences in tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower
> mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and multiplicity (P
> < 0.007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results
> indicate that diets rich in soy reduce the incidence of
> chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
> Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as
> soy in reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity.
>
> [my emphasis for experiment A]
> http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/con...stract/9/1/113
>
> So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial,
> at least with DMBA-induced tumors. Note that casein is typically used as
> a control protein. From the discussion section of the full article:
> Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein
> as the "control" protein source and compare all dietary effects
> to the results of groups fed casein. One possibility not often
> discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of
> developing DMBA-induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets
> containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were true, our
> data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein
> isolate could promote tumor formation compared with whey. This
> is an area requiring further research.
>
> That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the
> presence of DMBA. It's still important to note the researchers'
> comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may well prove to be
> more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor
> multiplicity in some types of cancer. Another study has found that
> "Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein isolate] was effective in
> reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
> marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in
> reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been
> linked to certain kinds of cancer, including bladder cancer.
>
> First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer):
> http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab325a.html#59
>
> Second souce (bladder cancer study):
> http://tinyurl.com/w76v
>
> I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but
> doctors who state that "casein causes cancer" are making unscientific
> claims until such findings are made from studies.

He did not say casein causes cancer-but spoke of the studies with mice you
mentioned and talked about China.
but he said he personally does not take it (casein)..he said more studies
are needed-
He lived in the Woodlands.
Michael
Nice man-don't meet many Vegan MD'S.




>

Michael Balarama wrote:
>>>I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who
>>>told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing cancer...
>>
>>The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other
>>disease. It appears casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to
>>cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who write (and read)
>>pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links
>>between casein and such diseases.
>>
>>Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein
>>(control group) diets had some interesting findings. The mice were
>>induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors.
>>When 100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed
>>rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%) in experiment B (P <
>>0.002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO
>>differences in tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower
>>mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and multiplicity (P
>>< 0.007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results
>>indicate that diets rich in soy reduce the incidence of
>>chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
>>Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as
>>soy in reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity.
>>
>>[my emphasis for experiment A]
>>http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/con...stract/9/1/113
>>
>>So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial,
>>at least with DMBA-induced tumors. Note that casein is typically used as
>>a control protein. From the discussion section of the full article:
>>Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein
>>as the "control" protein source and compare all dietary effects
>>to the results of groups fed casein. One possibility not often
>>discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of
>>developing DMBA-induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets
>>containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were true, our
>>data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein
>>isolate could promote tumor formation compared with whey. This
>>is an area requiring further research.
>>
>>That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the
>>presence of DMBA. It's still important to note the researchers'
>>comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may well prove to be
>>more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor
>>multiplicity in some types of cancer. Another study has found that
>>"Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein isolate] was effective in
>>reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
>>marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in
>>reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been
>>linked to certain kinds of cancer, including bladder cancer.
>>
>>First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer):
>>http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab325a.html#59
>>
>>Second souce (bladder cancer study):
>>http://tinyurl.com/w76v
>>
>>I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but
>>doctors who state that "casein causes cancer" are making unscientific
>>claims until such findings are made from studies.
>
> He did not say casein causes cancer-but spoke of the studies with mice you
> mentioned and talked about China.

The Chinese suffer cancers, too. What's prevalent here isn't there, and
what's prevalent there isn't here.

> but he said he personally does not take it (casein)..he said more studies
> are needed-

Good.

> He lived in the Woodlands.

I'll remember that if I'm ever sick north of Houston.

> Nice man-don't meet many Vegan MD'S.

No, but I wonder if he plays golf up there; everyone else does. I wonder
if he knows how lethal golf courses are for small animals, not to
mention the effects on people with all the fertilizers and herbicides
they use. All that danger for a few hours of hitting a small ball into
different holes.

"Michael Balarama" > wrote in message
<snip message>

Here's how I see things.

If you have a moral conviction to be a veg*n, or you feel that a veg*n diet
improves your health, then you don't need to make all kinds of silly things
up to support it.

People drink milk for decades on end and never get cancer. It's only if
you're doubting your choice or you're trying to convince other people to
join you who wouldn't otherwise do it, that you would need to make up a
bunch of inaccurate information.

Do you really WANT converts to come over based on lies? Or do you want them
to come over because they feel that it's the right thing for them to do even
without all that hype about the dangers of milk, meat, and eggs?


-Rubystars

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Balarama wrote:

snippage...


> No, but I wonder if he plays golf up there; everyone else does. I wonder
> if he knows how lethal golf courses are for small animals, not to
> mention the effects on people with all the fertilizers and herbicides
> they use. All that danger for a few hours of hitting a small ball into
> different holes.
======================
But, but, he makes up for all that death and suffering by eating tofurkey
dinners instead! What a hoot!
The hypocrisy runneth over....

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Balarama wrote:
> >>>I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who
> >>>told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing cancer...
> >>
> >>The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other
> >>disease. It appears casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to
> >>cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who write (and read)
> >>pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links
> >>between casein and such diseases.
> >>
> >>Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein
> >>(control group) diets had some interesting findings. The mice were
> >>induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors.
> >>When 100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed
> >>rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%) in experiment B (P <
> >>0.002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO
> >>differences in tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower
> >>mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and multiplicity (P
> >>< 0.007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results
> >>indicate that diets rich in soy reduce the incidence of
> >>chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
> >>Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as
> >>soy in reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity.
> >>
> >>[my emphasis for experiment A]
> >>http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/con...stract/9/1/113
> >>
> >>So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial,
> >>at least with DMBA-induced tumors. Note that casein is typically used as
> >>a control protein. From the discussion section of the full article:
> >>Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein
> >>as the "control" protein source and compare all dietary effects
> >>to the results of groups fed casein. One possibility not often
> >>discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of
> >>developing DMBA-induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets
> >>containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were true, our
> >>data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein
> >>isolate could promote tumor formation compared with whey. This
> >>is an area requiring further research.
> >>
> >>That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the
> >>presence of DMBA. It's still important to note the researchers'
> >>comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may well prove to be
> >>more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor
> >>multiplicity in some types of cancer. Another study has found that
> >>"Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein isolate] was effective in
> >>reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
> >>marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in
> >>reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been
> >>linked to certain kinds of cancer, including bladder cancer.
> >>
> >>First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer):
> >>http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab325a.html#59
> >>
> >>Second souce (bladder cancer study):
> >>http://tinyurl.com/w76v
> >>
> >>I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but
> >>doctors who state that "casein causes cancer" are making unscientific
> >>claims until such findings are made from studies.
> >
> > He did not say casein causes cancer-but spoke of the studies with mice
you
> > mentioned and talked about China.
>
> The Chinese suffer cancers, too. What's prevalent here isn't there, and
> what's prevalent there isn't here.
>
> > but he said he personally does not take it (casein)..he said more
studies
> > are needed-
>
> Good.
>
> > He lived in the Woodlands.
>
> I'll remember that if I'm ever sick north of Houston.
>
> > Nice man-don't meet many Vegan MD'S.
>
> No, but I wonder if he plays golf up there; everyone else does. I wonder
> if he knows how lethal golf courses are for small animals, not to
> mention the effects on people with all the fertilizers and herbicides
> they use. All that danger for a few hours of hitting a small ball into
> different holes.

I don't think he is a golfer-small man-but he also talked about this other
MD who spoke at a previous vegetarian club meeting I happened to attend-this
MD spoke of the life expectancy of vegans vs meat eaters and his scientific
conclusion was both have pretty similar life expectancy.
because of my legal background and quasi depositional personality people
like to bring these points up with me...I guess.
Personally-My meat eating father is really old...I doubt if I will life to
his age.
Michael




>