You gotta like that Chen term which you see on the the Google
translated Chinese sites describing the age and taste of puer as it
applies to a specific type of puer from a specific factory. I give two
urls for recent Chinatown purchases which too now I would have
described as cheap and inferior in the Western sense but in the Chinese
sense is the hallmark of the desired end product. Also if you look at
the Western sites you get the impression puer is a limited product.
The Chinese sites expand the vista so it seems there is no end to what
you can get.

Jim

http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall

http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall

I know we've all probably seen the odd translations of Chinese into
English...the second page Jim notes has this to offer: "
This sexual price is extremely higher than, it may be said the low-price
quality merchandise. This caffeine fully manifested the courageous sea ripe
tea pure strong merit, suited the collection or tastes. "

Ah-hem. Yeah.....
Thanks for the links Jim! Oh BTW, do you (or anybody here for that matter)
know how to type out Chinese characters on one's keyboard instead of having
to punch in Unicode? I supposedly have the Chinese and Japanese character
sets loaded into my Windows but I don't know how to use them.

Melinda

--
"The country has entered an era in which
questions are not asked, for questions are
daughters of disquiet or arrogance, both
fruits of temptation and the food of sacrilege." Djaout
"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You gotta like that Chen term which you see on the the Google
> translated Chinese sites describing the age and taste of puer as it
> applies to a specific type of puer from a specific factory. I give two
> urls for recent Chinatown purchases which too now I would have
> described as cheap and inferior in the Western sense but in the Chinese
> sense is the hallmark of the desired end product. Also if you look at
> the Western sites you get the impression puer is a limited product.
> The Chinese sites expand the vista so it seems there is no end to what
> you can get.
>
> Jim
>
> http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall
>
> http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall
>

Hi Melinda,

I happen to be good friends with the webmaster of that particular
site, here is what his real "intent" is.

"While the price is quite high, it is actually an attractive price for
this high quality pu'er. The flavor is very representative of Meng Hai
Tea Factory's excellent reputation, and is well suited for Collectors
and Connoisseurs."

You have to understand that the prices on this site are typically
about a tenth of the prices you would see in the USA. They are
charging the rough equivalent of $300 for a case (30kg) of 5 year old
cooked\black\sheng cake which works out to be about $3.50 each, expect
to pay $20 and up here in the US for the same cake. Most black cakes
sell for even less there but since it does come from the Meng Hai Tea
Factory it is considered to be better than average. The other
consideration is that older Meng Hai teas are considered very valuable
by the Chinese right now because the Meng Hai factory got bought by a
big conglomerate (Bowin Corp) back in October 2004. Teas made before
the buyout have shot up greatly in value. I am real interested to see
what the Meng Hai 2005 teas will be like.

Sasha, this site has two interesting Bamboo Pu'ers, the best tasting
and most interesting one is made from YiWu Mountain Ancient Tree
leaves is
http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod..._id=1111996159
and the other one is
http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod..._id=1111737891
both are made in the Dai Nationality style. However this site does NOT
cater to the US market, they are strictly Chinese wholesalers, you
need to order a minimum of a case of anything you buy from them. If
you want a good source for authentic Dai Bamboo puer email me offline
and I will hook you up. You can see the stuff I am talking about at
http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/DSCN0977.jpg take notice of the scorch
marks from where it was roasted over an open fire. I have a cool video
showing how they make the stuff and it shows them sticking the bamboo
canes directly into the fire to roast them a bit. The scorch marks are
a good indicator of traditional processing, modern metheds often use
baking rather than fire roasting.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net




On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:47:57 -0700, "Melinda" >
wrote:

>I know we've all probably seen the odd translations of Chinese into
>English...the second page Jim notes has this to offer: "
>This sexual price is extremely higher than, it may be said the low-price
>quality merchandise. This caffeine fully manifested the courageous sea ripe
>tea pure strong merit, suited the collection or tastes. "
>
>Ah-hem. Yeah.....
>Thanks for the links Jim! Oh BTW, do you (or anybody here for that matter)
>know how to type out Chinese characters on one's keyboard instead of having
>to punch in Unicode? I supposedly have the Chinese and Japanese character
>sets loaded into my Windows but I don't know how to use them.
>
>Melinda

Ah, I see. That does clear it up a bit, Mike, thank-you. When you get a
taste of a Meng Hai 2005 do please share your thoughts with us as I have
been thinking about eventually trying some of theirs...it seems like it's a
name brand, as close as you can get to one anyway. I have been concentrating
more on green teas lately, I think it has to do with the summer coming in.

Melinda

--
"The country has entered an era in which
questions are not asked, for questions are
daughters of disquiet or arrogance, both
fruits of temptation and the food of sacrilege." Djaout
"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Melinda,
>
> I happen to be good friends with the webmaster of that particular
> site, here is what his real "intent" is.
>
> "While the price is quite high, it is actually an attractive price for
> this high quality pu'er. The flavor is very representative of Meng Hai
> Tea Factory's excellent reputation, and is well suited for Collectors
> and Connoisseurs."
>
> You have to understand that the prices on this site are typically
> about a tenth of the prices you would see in the USA. They are
> charging the rough equivalent of $300 for a case (30kg) of 5 year old
> cooked\black\sheng cake which works out to be about $3.50 each, expect
> to pay $20 and up here in the US for the same cake. Most black cakes
> sell for even less there but since it does come from the Meng Hai Tea
> Factory it is considered to be better than average. The other
> consideration is that older Meng Hai teas are considered very valuable
> by the Chinese right now because the Meng Hai factory got bought by a
> big conglomerate (Bowin Corp) back in October 2004. Teas made before
> the buyout have shot up greatly in value. I am real interested to see
> what the Meng Hai 2005 teas will be like.
>
> Sasha, this site has two interesting Bamboo Pu'ers, the best tasting
> and most interesting one is made from YiWu Mountain Ancient Tree
> leaves is
> http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod..._id=1111996159
> and the other one is
> http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod..._id=1111737891
> both are made in the Dai Nationality style. However this site does NOT
> cater to the US market, they are strictly Chinese wholesalers, you
> need to order a minimum of a case of anything you buy from them. If
> you want a good source for authentic Dai Bamboo puer email me offline
> and I will hook you up. You can see the stuff I am talking about at
> http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/DSCN0977.jpg take notice of the scorch
> marks from where it was roasted over an open fire. I have a cool video
> showing how they make the stuff and it shows them sticking the bamboo
> canes directly into the fire to roast them a bit. The scorch marks are
> a good indicator of traditional processing, modern metheds often use
> baking rather than fire roasting.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:47:57 -0700, "Melinda" >
> wrote:
>
>>I know we've all probably seen the odd translations of Chinese into
>>English...the second page Jim notes has this to offer: "
>>This sexual price is extremely higher than, it may be said the low-price
>>quality merchandise. This caffeine fully manifested the courageous sea
>>ripe
>>tea pure strong merit, suited the collection or tastes. "
>>
>>Ah-hem. Yeah.....
>>Thanks for the links Jim! Oh BTW, do you (or anybody here for that matter)
>>know how to type out Chinese characters on one's keyboard instead of
>>having
>>to punch in Unicode? I supposedly have the Chinese and Japanese character
>>sets loaded into my Windows but I don't know how to use them.
>>
>>Melinda
>

Ah, I see. That does clear it up a bit, Mike, thank-you. When you get a
taste of a Meng Hai 2005 do please share your thoughts with us as I have
been thinking about eventually trying some of theirs...it seems like it's a
name brand, as close as you can get to one anyway. I have been concentrating
more on green teas lately, I think it has to do with the summer coming in.

Melinda

--
"The country has entered an era in which
questions are not asked, for questions are
daughters of disquiet or arrogance, both
fruits of temptation and the food of sacrilege." Djaout
"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Melinda,
>
> I happen to be good friends with the webmaster of that particular
> site, here is what his real "intent" is.
>
> "While the price is quite high, it is actually an attractive price for
> this high quality pu'er. The flavor is very representative of Meng Hai
> Tea Factory's excellent reputation, and is well suited for Collectors
> and Connoisseurs."
>
> You have to understand that the prices on this site are typically
> about a tenth of the prices you would see in the USA. They are
> charging the rough equivalent of $300 for a case (30kg) of 5 year old
> cooked\black\sheng cake which works out to be about $3.50 each, expect
> to pay $20 and up here in the US for the same cake. Most black cakes
> sell for even less there but since it does come from the Meng Hai Tea
> Factory it is considered to be better than average. The other
> consideration is that older Meng Hai teas are considered very valuable
> by the Chinese right now because the Meng Hai factory got bought by a
> big conglomerate (Bowin Corp) back in October 2004. Teas made before
> the buyout have shot up greatly in value. I am real interested to see
> what the Meng Hai 2005 teas will be like.
>
> Sasha, this site has two interesting Bamboo Pu'ers, the best tasting
> and most interesting one is made from YiWu Mountain Ancient Tree
> leaves is
> http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod..._id=1111996159
> and the other one is
> http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod..._id=1111737891
> both are made in the Dai Nationality style. However this site does NOT
> cater to the US market, they are strictly Chinese wholesalers, you
> need to order a minimum of a case of anything you buy from them. If
> you want a good source for authentic Dai Bamboo puer email me offline
> and I will hook you up. You can see the stuff I am talking about at
> http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/DSCN0977.jpg take notice of the scorch
> marks from where it was roasted over an open fire. I have a cool video
> showing how they make the stuff and it shows them sticking the bamboo
> canes directly into the fire to roast them a bit. The scorch marks are
> a good indicator of traditional processing, modern metheds often use
> baking rather than fire roasting.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:47:57 -0700, "Melinda" >
> wrote:
>
>>I know we've all probably seen the odd translations of Chinese into
>>English...the second page Jim notes has this to offer: "
>>This sexual price is extremely higher than, it may be said the low-price
>>quality merchandise. This caffeine fully manifested the courageous sea
>>ripe
>>tea pure strong merit, suited the collection or tastes. "
>>
>>Ah-hem. Yeah.....
>>Thanks for the links Jim! Oh BTW, do you (or anybody here for that matter)
>>know how to type out Chinese characters on one's keyboard instead of
>>having
>>to punch in Unicode? I supposedly have the Chinese and Japanese character
>>sets loaded into my Windows but I don't know how to use them.
>>
>>Melinda
>

"The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double Village
the home of Puer processing
http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl.../www.puerh.cn/. The
expensive sexual price in my Chinatown was only $4. This green India
pu is what I would call cooked. So it seems possible a puer can be
ripe and uncooked plus I've always been under the impression that the
green tea symbol meant uncooked. I think the term India refers to the
old or traditional methods of processing. I thought I read on one site
where it wasn't used anymore. Most likely the term 'green India' just
refers to a type of cooked puer. I see Mike did a follow up post so
there is a goldmine in my Chinatown. Oh Sasha a beengcha that is rare
and collectable keeps tasting better and better all the time and black
might be green.

Jim

Melinda wrote:
> I know we've all probably seen the odd translations of Chinese into
> English...the second page Jim notes has this to offer: "
> This sexual price is extremely higher than, it may be said the
low-price
> quality merchandise. This caffeine fully manifested the courageous
sea ripe
> tea pure strong merit, suited the collection or tastes. "
>
> Ah-hem. Yeah.....
> Thanks for the links Jim! Oh BTW, do you (or anybody here for that
matter)
> know how to type out Chinese characters on one's keyboard instead of
having
> to punch in Unicode? I supposedly have the Chinese and Japanese
character
> sets loaded into my Windows but I don't know how to use them.
>
> Melinda
>
> --
> "The country has entered an era in which
> questions are not asked, for questions are
> daughters of disquiet or arrogance, both
> fruits of temptation and the food of sacrilege." Djaout
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > You gotta like that Chen term which you see on the the Google
> > translated Chinese sites describing the age and taste of puer as it
> > applies to a specific type of puer from a specific factory. I give
two
> > urls for recent Chinatown purchases which too now I would have
> > described as cheap and inferior in the Western sense but in the
Chinese
> > sense is the hallmark of the desired end product. Also if you look
at
> > the Western sites you get the impression puer is a limited product.
> > The Chinese sites expand the vista so it seems there is no end to
what
> > you can get.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall
> >
> >
http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall
> >

Jim, you don't know what you are talking about! You are trusting
transalations that are far from being correct. You continually confuse
wrappers that look similar but are really very different teas. Just
like you did't know know the differnce between a Xia Guan 1st grade and
a Xia Guan Supreme grade a few weeks ago. You really should learn more,
or at least ask, before putting up posts like this. All you are doing
is confusing people with this nonsense.

I will help anyone on this planet understand it better, that is except
for you. You have attacked me so many times that I wouldn't give you my
spent Tea Tray water let alone help you with your misconceptions. Your
attacks on me are a matter of record, as is your hypocrisy of doing
some of the very same things that you attacked me for.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double Village
> the home of Puer processing

Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai? Likewise
for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double Village
> the home of Puer processing

Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai? Likewise
for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Hey Sasha you don't have get into the middle of this. Can you compare
the wrapper of the beencha I sent you to the following site and let us
know if there is any difference? Also if you could please note the
price tag.

Thanks,
Jim

http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall

That's the term used on the translated Chinese sites. It took me
awhile to work backwards to verify that is West Double Village. I
haven't seen anything that also means Menghai perse. I'm working with
what the translation gives me.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> > "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double
Village
> > the home of Puer processing
>
> Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai? Likewise
> for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> >
> > > "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double
> > > Village the home of Puer processing
> >
> > Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai? Likewise
> > for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?
>
> That's the term used on the translated Chinese sites. It took me
> awhile to work backwards to verify that is West Double Village. I
> haven't seen anything that also means Menghai perse. I'm working with
> what the translation gives me.

If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for example
is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> >
> > > "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double
> > > Village the home of Puer processing
> >
> > Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai? Likewise
> > for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?
>
> That's the term used on the translated Chinese sites. It took me
> awhile to work backwards to verify that is West Double Village. I
> haven't seen anything that also means Menghai perse. I'm working with
> what the translation gives me.

If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for example
is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:

> If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
> program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
> often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for example
> is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I have a collection of pictures that I and others collected in China of that
computerized translations. My favorite is the huge hanging market sign that
proudly declared "SPREAD TO **** THE FRUIT". The Chinese version mean "Loose
dry fruit". Go f...igure.

"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:

> If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
> program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
> often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for example
> is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I have a collection of pictures that I and others collected in China of that
computerized translations. My favorite is the huge hanging market sign that
proudly declared "SPREAD TO **** THE FRUIT". The Chinese version mean "Loose
dry fruit". Go f...igure.

Once again you show your ignorance...

There are dozens of teas, and each from vintages spanning many years,
wrapped in the very same wrapper. The differences are often so small
that you cannot tell from a thumbnail sized photo, differences as small
as the thickness of one letter in the font or the hue of magenta used
can mean the difference between a worthless cake and one of extreme
value. The proof of that is evident if you look through the very site
you are quoting, you will see several very different teas with the
identical looking wrappers. I have books that document these
differences, much like the books for coin collectors, showing the
minuscule differences in the wrappers (inside and out) and equate them
to pedigree and vintage. I spoke of this phenomenon on my site ages
ago. If you are judging pedigree, vintage, and value by the wrapper
alone then you do indeed need to educate yourself more and stop
spreading misinformation! You are getting as bad about spreading
misinformation as some of the vendors.....

BTW Lew you are correct, the loosely translated "courageous sea" does
indeed mean the Meng Hai Factory when referencing pu'er. I know this
beyond a shadow of a doubt!

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Once again you show your ignorance...

There are dozens of teas, and each from vintages spanning many years,
wrapped in the very same wrapper. The differences are often so small
that you cannot tell from a thumbnail sized photo, differences as small
as the thickness of one letter in the font or the hue of magenta used
can mean the difference between a worthless cake and one of extreme
value. The proof of that is evident if you look through the very site
you are quoting, you will see several very different teas with the
identical looking wrappers. I have books that document these
differences, much like the books for coin collectors, showing the
minuscule differences in the wrappers (inside and out) and equate them
to pedigree and vintage. I spoke of this phenomenon on my site ages
ago. If you are judging pedigree, vintage, and value by the wrapper
alone then you do indeed need to educate yourself more and stop
spreading misinformation! You are getting as bad about spreading
misinformation as some of the vendors.....

BTW Lew you are correct, the loosely translated "courageous sea" does
indeed mean the Meng Hai Factory when referencing pu'er. I know this
beyond a shadow of a doubt!

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

I will if I find it

Sasha.

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hey Sasha you don't have get into the middle of this. Can you compare
> the wrapper of the beencha I sent you to the following site and let us
> know if there is any difference? Also if you could please note the
> price tag.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim
>
> http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall
>

In one of the two examples the term 'courageous sea' and Fuhai are both
used. Fuhai is the old name of Menghai. It could be the translation
software doesn't know that 'courageous sea' is the newer Menghai. It
doesn't matter. If all you get is 'courageous sea' then that is what
you work with. I saw Lost In Translation. It's not about linguistics.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> >
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > >
> > > > "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double
> > > > Village the home of Puer processing
> > >
> > > Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai?
Likewise
> > > for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?
> >
> > That's the term used on the translated Chinese sites. It took me
> > awhile to work backwards to verify that is West Double Village. I
> > haven't seen anything that also means Menghai perse. I'm working
with
> > what the translation gives me.
>
> If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
> program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
> often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for
example
> is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

In one of the two examples the term 'courageous sea' and Fuhai are both
used. Fuhai is the old name of Menghai. It could be the translation
software doesn't know that 'courageous sea' is the newer Menghai. It
doesn't matter. If all you get is 'courageous sea' then that is what
you work with. I saw Lost In Translation. It's not about linguistics.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> >
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > >
> > > > "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double
> > > > Village the home of Puer processing
> > >
> > > Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai?
Likewise
> > > for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?
> >
> > That's the term used on the translated Chinese sites. It took me
> > awhile to work backwards to verify that is West Double Village. I
> > haven't seen anything that also means Menghai perse. I'm working
with
> > what the translation gives me.
>
> If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
> program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
> often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for
example
> is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

In one of the two examples the term 'courageous sea' and Fuhai are both
used. Fuhai is the old name of Menghai. It could be the translation
software doesn't know that 'courageous sea' is the newer Menghai. It
doesn't matter. If all you get is 'courageous sea' then that is what
you work with. I saw Lost In Translation. It's not about linguistics.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> >
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > >
> > > > "The courgeous sea ripe tea" is a reference to the West Double
> > > > Village the home of Puer processing
> > >
> > > Isn't "courageous sea" an unneeded translation of Menghai?
Likewise
> > > for "West Double Village" and Xishuangbanna?
> >
> > That's the term used on the translated Chinese sites. It took me
> > awhile to work backwards to verify that is West Double Village. I
> > haven't seen anything that also means Menghai perse. I'm working
with
> > what the translation gives me.
>
> If by "translated Chinese sites" you mean translated by a computer
> program (e.g. Babelfish or Google), that's exactly what I mean: they
> often translate words that should be left alone. Menghai, for
example
> is just a name, and it doesn't help anyone to translate it.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

No rush. It will look the same. The insert says to ignore all wrapper
blemishes interpreted as special marks by flimflam artists to demand
higher prices.

Jim

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> I will if I find it
>
> Sasha.
>
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hey Sasha you don't have get into the middle of this. Can you
compare
> > the wrapper of the beencha I sent you to the following site and let
us
> > know if there is any difference? Also if you could please note the
> > price tag.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jim
> >
> >
http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl... as_qdr%3Dall

Flimflam huh, there you go showing your ignorance even further... I
guess you don't know how to accept the truth even when backed up with
facts. The Chinese have this down to a refined Collector's market,
whether you choose to accept that or not.

You do seem to be in denial... So prove it to yourself:

Without reading the descriptions, just by looking at the wrapper, tell
me what's the difference between these 5 cakes? One of them costs
400% more than another, why? One of them does say Menghai instead of
Yunnan, that makes a difference, but the same thing applies, many teas
are wrapped in that very same wrapper too.
http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065

http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065

http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065

http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065

http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065





Without reading the descriptions, just by looking at the wrapper, tell
me what's the difference between these 3 cakes? One of them costs
250% more than another, what's the difference, why is one worth more
than another?
http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065

http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065

http://www.yuncha.com.cn/php/yc_prod...a07beeabcb1065


These are all very different teas that would look very much the same to
the uninitiated! Just because your Chinatown cake looks the same as one
of these wrappers doesnt mean a cotton-picking thing. I gurrantee it
isnt the same exact 5 year old tea. There is no way you are going to
see a $3.50 wholesale cake in China sell for $4 here, no matter how
shrewd you think you are.

Wake up, smell the Pu'er, and quit talking out of your backside...

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Jim, I apologize, my tone has been very unprofessional. A part of me
feels that you deserve whatever you get since you have attacked me so
relentlessly over the years, but that part of me is ugly and needs to
disappear. Hence I aologize for the tone.

Have a good life sir, you really should do your homework before
spreading any more misinformation about Pu'er, quite honestly you are
way off base.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Space 4/12/05


> No rush. It will look the same. The insert says to ignore all wrapper
> blemishes interpreted as special marks by flimflam artists to demand
> higher prices.
>
> Jim



Jim,

I'm not sure what you mean by "blemishes" here, but those imperfections in
the actual paper can be very telling. If there are little holes in the paper
made by insects, those holes near the center (where the paper is bunched
onto the cake) will go through several layers of paper. This is a good way
to know that the cake had not been unwrapped and rewrapped. That begins to
suggest some level of authenticity. Perhaps you meant something else by
blemishes though. Just thoughts.

Michael

I suspect it was more of a crack regarding the my statement where
wrappers that look identical to the untrained eye really do have
minuscule differences. This is how the pros can help to authenticate
the difference between an authentic 30 year old cake and a modern
forgery. These labels all originated from what was once Governement
owned factories and the basic design has remained unchanged for
decades. However, things like font size, justification, color hue, etc
all changed over the years, even though the bulk of the design
remained the same, and one can get a good indication from these
details as to the pedigree and vintage of the cake if they know what
to look for. These nuances are well documented in Chinese literature
but the average American is not aware of them.

The moral of the story is that just because 2 wrappers look identical
does NOT mean that the tea inside will be the same. I can prove this
beyond doubt regardless of what the naysayers may allege.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net



On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:15:17 GMT, Michael Plant >
wrote:

>Space 4/12/05

>
>> No rush. It will look the same. The insert says to ignore all wrapper
>> blemishes interpreted as special marks by flimflam artists to demand
>> higher prices.
>>
>> Jim
>
>
>
>Jim,
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by "blemishes" here, but those imperfections in
>the actual paper can be very telling. If there are little holes in the paper
>made by insects, those holes near the center (where the paper is bunched
>onto the cake) will go through several layers of paper. This is a good way
>to know that the cake had not been unwrapped and rewrapped. That begins to
>suggest some level of authenticity. Perhaps you meant something else by
>blemishes though. Just thoughts.
>
>Michael

snip snip snip

[Mke]
> The moral of the story is that just because 2 wrappers look identical
> does NOT mean that the tea inside will be the same. I can prove this
> beyond doubt regardless of what the naysayers may allege.

Yes, of course. And add to that what you had said earlier about the use of
one wrapper for any number of teas, and we have a *very* complex web here. I
look to you for guidance in these matters. I haven't the patience to make
the study myself.

snip snip snip

Michael

It was a jab at you know who. Hopefully the wrapper differences don't
come down to a blemish. You're right you can only open a wrapper once.
My favorite Antiques Road Show segments the China antiques which
ain't. My Chinatown Chen pu is #2 from Guess the Wrapper post. The
fonts match and it is cheap and not Chen. Sasha don't bother at all
except if you every have a yard sale on puer let me know. I know in
Chinese black is red except puerh where it is blue. I added the new
word Gansu to my puerh vocabulary. It means the finishing taste of
puer.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
> Space
4/12/05
>
>
> > No rush. It will look the same. The insert says to ignore all
wrapper
> > blemishes interpreted as special marks by flimflam artists to
demand
> > higher prices.
> >
> > Jim
>
>
>
> Jim,
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "blemishes" here, but those
imperfections in
> the actual paper can be very telling. If there are little holes in
the paper
> made by insects, those holes near the center (where the paper is
bunched
> onto the cake) will go through several layers of paper. This is a
good way
> to know that the cake had not been unwrapped and rewrapped. That
begins to
> suggest some level of authenticity. Perhaps you meant something else
by
> blemishes though. Just thoughts.
>
> Michael

Jim, the wrapper differences do come down to minuscule differences,
which might be called blemishes "only" if you were trying to yank
my chain. These differences are well documented!

You actually proved my point because you now say that your Chinatown
cake is #2, yesterday you said your Chinatown cake was identical to a
whole different cake. The 2 wrappers look so similar you didn't
realize that they were different teas. The reality is that they were
both made at the exact same factory, and the same wrapper was used to
wrap any number of totally different teas potentially even hundreds.

The price is definitely more believable at a wholesale cost $1.29 each
and a retail $4 each; however your assumption that your Chinatown cake
is #2 cannot be substantiated by simply looking at the wrapper alone.
You Chinatown tea could have been made from the leaves of an entirely
different farm and an entirely different processing recipe. The
"generic" wrapper won't make those distinctions. Think of these
CNNP wrappers like you would think of the generic "white label"
products you see in a drugstore, they simply say Yunnan Qizi Pu'er
Cha and not much more. Any number of different teas from different
years can be inside of these wrappers.

Here is a solid example from my private collection showing that the
wrapper is NOT a comprehensive identifier:

Look at
http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/Stock/DSCN0974.jpg
and now look at
http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/Stock/DSCN0978.jpg
can you tell any difference in the wrapping?

Now look at tea that is inside of the first wrapper
http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/Stock/DSCN0975.jpg
it is a 2004 raw silver bud cake
Now look at tea that is inside of the second wrapper
http://www.pu-erh.net/graphics/Stock/DSCN0979.jpg
it is a 2004 cooked Jipin Pu'er cake

These 2 teas are on opposite ends of the pu'er spectrum yet they have
identical looking wrappers!

Now both of these wrappers look identical because they ARE indeed
identical. Both cakes were made at the same Meng Hai factory for the
Import/Export distributors. The factory used the exact same wrapper
for every cake destined to this Import/Export distributor unless the
distributor specifically requested otherwise. In order for them to
"request" a different wrapper the distributor would have had to
purchase a minimum of 5000 cakes and there would have been a small
surcharge. This is seldom done by the Exporters, they are trying to
save every RMB/Yuan they can. They don't cater to our "truth in
advertising" sensibilities YET!

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

I made a mistake, this was a bad example, these 2 wrappers are
different.

The brush strokes on the large Chinese font across the top on #2 are
slightly thicker than on #1. The English font is about 1 point size
larger on #2 as well. The CHA symbol in the middle logo is also
different, look at the large cross in the middle of the logo, the arms
of the cross on #2 are shorter than the arms on #1. All of these things
can be used to point to specific production runs within the factory.

Also on # 1 the word "NATIONAL" was misspelled and actually reads
"NATICNAL". This type of misspelling is fairly common on Export
wrappers. Another letter that is often wrong is that a "U" will be
sometimes be represented by a "V". The misspelled wrappers can usually
be associated to a specific date range and factory location with a
little bit of research. This is the type of information that gets
documented in the Chinese Pu'er books.

Sometimes the differences are on the inner label or on the insert
instead. The same outer wrapper might have been used for all production
during 7 months where a certain inner label (with a specific typo,
defect, or other unique feature) might only have been used for one of
those months and then only on a certain specific recipe run. Other
differences might be how thick the outer red circle is in mm. Or the
diameter of the stylized CHA logo, or even the measurements of the
whole sheet of paper, not to mention paper fiber content and thickness.


It is every bit as involved as coin or stamp collecting and the nuances
easily mean the difference of thousands of dollars. Yes, I said
thousands, a single cake of appropriate pedigree and vintage can easily
fetch $3,000 or more at auction in Guangzhou, this is NOT an exception
but is rather commonplace.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

I made a mistake, this was a bad example, these 2 wrappers are
different.

The brush strokes on the large Chinese font across the top on #2 are
slightly thicker than on #1. The English font is about 1 point size
larger on #2 as well. The CHA symbol in the middle logo is also
different, look at the large cross in the middle of the logo, the arms
of the cross on #2 are shorter than the arms on #1. All of these things
can be used to point to specific production runs within the factory.

Also on # 1 the word "NATIONAL" was misspelled and actually reads
"NATICNAL". This type of misspelling is fairly common on Export
wrappers. Another letter that is often wrong is that a "U" will be
sometimes be represented by a "V". The misspelled wrappers can usually
be associated to a specific date range and factory location with a
little bit of research. This is the type of information that gets
documented in the Chinese Pu'er books.

Sometimes the differences are on the inner label or on the insert
instead. The same outer wrapper might have been used for all production
during 7 months where a certain inner label (with a specific typo,
defect, or other unique feature) might only have been used for one of
those months and then only on a certain specific recipe run. Other
differences might be how thick the outer red circle is in mm. Or the
diameter of the stylized CHA logo, or even the measurements of the
whole sheet of paper, not to mention paper fiber content and thickness.


It is every bit as involved as coin or stamp collecting and the nuances
easily mean the difference of thousands of dollars. Yes, I said
thousands, a single cake of appropriate pedigree and vintage can easily
fetch $3,000 or more at auction in Guangzhou, this is NOT an exception
but is rather commonplace.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net