Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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Default It's the water, right?

As a lot of people know, when brewing tea the water can be as important
to the taste of the beverage as the leaves. It does bother me, though,
to think of whats involved in trucking water halfway around the world
just to improve the taste in my cup.

I know there are products available to supply minerals small quantities
of would change the taste of tea, but I havent studied them.

Just as a probe into this topic, I wonder if anyone could suggest a way
to supplement, say, filtered New York City tap water

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf

(mineral analysis on p. 12) so its composition would approximate Volvic
mineral water?

http://www.mineralwaters.org/index.p...sp&parval=2761

If Scott Dorsey tells me, just add N milligrams/liter of Burton Water
Salts, Ill be a happy man, but I kind of doubt it - theres papain in
there, right?

/Lew
---
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http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Default Its the water, right?

Is NYC water that bad. My brother-in-law who lives in Minnesota
convinced my wifes parents their SF water supply is polluted. They
bought an icebox with a charcoal filter for their drinking water. I
got the lecture on the last trip not to use tap water because of all
the nasty minerals. I wasnt going to argue that is a good thing. I
think my brother-in-law doesnt know his minerals from primordial
soup. It takes forever and a day to heat chilled water. My water
comes from a well 500ft into an acquifer. However at the pressure
tank there are bacteria which live on or produce iron oxide which adds
a taste. City folk tell me its the best water theyve every tasted. I
think the Japanese add rock to their water to supply extra minerals
which I think was discussed here at one point in time. You can
probably find something similar in the holistic community. I cant
tell you how many homes Ive seen with newly installed reverse osmosis
filtration because of newly borns. There was a period in the eighties
where delivered glass bottled water was fashionable but has been
replaced by discarded plastic in landfills. I know chlorine taste is
boiled off. The number one threat to the ecosystem is not climate
change but potable water. The wars in the future will be about water
as much as energy. I digress.

Jim

On Mar 10, 3:34 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> As a lot of people know, when brewing tea the water can be as important
> to the taste of the beverage as the leaves. It does bother me, though,
> to think of whats involved in trucking water halfway around the world
> just to improve the taste in my cup.
>
> I know there are products available to supply minerals small quantities
> of would change the taste of tea, but I havent studied them.
>
> Just as a probe into this topic, I wonder if anyone could suggest a way
> to supplement, say, filtered New York City tap water
>
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf
>
> (mineral analysis on p. 12) so its composition would approximate Volvic
> mineral water?
>
> http://www.mineralwaters.org/index.p...sp&parval=2761
>
> If Scott Dorsey tells me, just add N milligrams/liter of Burton Water
> Salts, Ill be a happy man, but I kind of doubt it - theres papain in
> there, right?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

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Default It's the water, right?

Space Cowboy > writes:

>Is NYC water that bad.


No, but Ive had bakeoff experiences in which NYC tap brewed tea
noticeably inferior to certain mineral waters.

/Lew
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Default It's the water, right?

Lewis Perin > wrote:
>Just as a probe into this topic, I wonder if anyone could suggest a way
>to supplement, say, filtered New York City tap water
>
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf
>
>(mineral analysis on p. 12) so its composition would approximate Volvic
>mineral water?
>
> http://www.mineralwaters.org/index.p...sp&parval=2761
>
>If Scott Dorsey tells me, just add N milligrams/liter of Burton Water
>Salts, Ill be a happy man, but I kind of doubt it - theres papain in
>there, right?


Burton's Water Salts is gypsum, epsom salts, and I think potassium chloride.
It's a good first step toward making a pure water into a soft mineral water,
and it's certainly inexpensive enough to try.

I think the things you care about are sodium, potassium, iron, magnesium,
and calcium; if you get those more or less in the right ratios you should
be happy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default It's the water, right?

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

>Lewis Perin > wrote:
>>Just as a probe into this topic, I wonder if anyone could suggest a way
>>to supplement, say, filtered New York City tap water
>>
>>
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf
>>
>>(mineral analysis on p. 12) so its composition would approximate Volvic
>>mineral water?
>>
>> http://www.mineralwaters.org/index.p...sp&parval=2761
>>
>>If Scott Dorsey tells me, just add N milligrams/liter of Burton Water
>>Salts, Iâll be a happy man, but I kind of doubt it - thereâs papain in
>>there, right?

>
>Burton's Water Salts is gypsum, epsom salts, and I think potassium chloride.
>It's a good first step toward making a pure water into a soft mineral water,
>and it's certainly inexpensive enough to try.
>
>I think the things you care about are sodium, potassium, iron, magnesium,
>and calcium; if you get those more or less in the right ratios you should
>be happy.


Hmm. Its actually pretty hard to get the numbers on Burton. But for
New York City vs. Volvic, if all 5 of your ions are really important, it
looks kind of bleak. Note the iron surplus NYC has:

NYC Volvic
sodium 9 9.4
potassium 0.5 5.7
iron 40 <0.01
magnesium 1.2 6.1
calcium 5.5 9.9

No supplementation - Burton or whatever - will affect that, and its
such a high ratio that dilution with distilled water would have to be,
well, homeopathic.

/Lew
---
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http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


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Default It's the water, right?

Lewis Perin > wrote:
>Hmm. It's actually pretty hard to get the numbers on Burton.


That's because everyone has their own particular ratio of the three
ingredients. But it's basically adding calcium, potassium, and magnesium.

> But for
>New York City vs. Volvic, if all 5 of your ions are really important, it
>looks kind of bleak. Note the iron surplus NYC has:
>
> NYC Volvic
>sodium 9 9.4
>potassium 0.5 5.7
>iron 40 <0.01
>magnesium 1.2 6.1
>calcium 5.5 9.9


And my guess is that 90% of what you don't like about the NYC water is the
excess of iron. If it weren't for that, Burton's actually would fit the
bill for you.

>No supplementation - Burton or whatever - will affect that, and its
>such a high ratio that dilution with distilled water would have to be,
>well, homeopathic.


However, I bet distilled water and a little salts would be cheaper than
Volvic by a long shot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default It's the water, right?

Julien ÉLIE > writes:

>Hi Lewis,
>
>> Just as a probe into this topic, I wonder if anyone could suggest a way
>> to supplement, say, filtered New York City tap water
>> (mineral analysis on p. 12) so its composition would approximate Volvic
>> mineral water?

>
>Volvic is indeed a great mineral water. Be careful, though, it contains
>a certain amount of minerals. Volvic is not the best for all teas. I
>personally use Volvic for Japanese green teas, pu er, black teas, and
>deeply fermented or oxidized wulong.


I once found it made a huge improvement, compared to filtered New York
City tap water, in brewing a Dancong.

>For the rest (especially white and almost all Chinese green teas), I
>prefer a lower mineralization than the one of Volvic. Otherwise, the
>liquor is a bit flat.


I take your point: it would be wrong to assume one waters best for all teas.

/Lew
---
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http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Default It's the water, right?

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

>Lewis Perin > wrote:
>>Hmm. It's actually pretty hard to get the numbers on Burton.

>
>That's because everyone has their own particular ratio of the three
>ingredients. But it's basically adding calcium, potassium, and magnesium.
>
>> But for
>>New York City vs. Volvic, if all 5 of your ions are really important, it
>>looks kind of bleak. Note the iron surplus NYC has:
>>
>> NYC Volvic
>>sodium 9 9.4
>>potassium 0.5 5.7
>>iron 40 <0.01
>>magnesium 1.2 6.1
>>calcium 5.5 9.9

>
>And my guess is that 90% of what you don't like about the NYC water is the
>excess of iron. If it weren't for that, Burton's actually would fit the
>bill for you.
>
>>No supplementation - Burton or whatever - will affect that, and itâs
>>such a high ratio that dilution with distilled water would have to be,
>>well, homeopathic.

>
>However, I bet distilled water and a little salts would be cheaper than
>Volvic by a long shot.


Indeed. On the other hand...I need to apologize. Ive done a bit more
web searching on the topic of iron in water, and the more I looked the
more it seemed 40mg/liter was an outlier. So I checked back at that NYC
water quality report, and irons denominated in *micro*grams. So NYC
taps iron level, while still higher than Volvics, might not be an
obstacle. I really need to try this.

/Lew
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Lewis Perin > wrote:
>Indeed. On the other hand...I need to apologize. Ive done a bit more
>web searching on the topic of iron in water, and the more I looked the
>more it seemed 40mg/liter was an outlier. So I checked back at that NYC
>water quality report, and irons denominated in *micro*grams.


Try the Burton's then... add it until you can taste it. When you can taste
it you've used too much.

The thing about iron is that a lot of it is leached into pipes within an
individual building if the building has older iron pipes. So even if the
city count is low, the count at your tap can be high.

Iron is also a major problem for Kodak-chemistry color film processing
as well. A friend of mine was moving his lab and did water samples from
all prospective locations he was considering and the variation was very
high.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Lewis Perin > writes:

(Scott Dorsey) writes:
>
>>Lewis Perin > wrote:
>>>Indeed. On the other hand...I need to apologize. Iâve done a bit more
>>>web searching on the topic of iron in water, and the more I looked the
>>>more it seemed 40mg/liter was an outlier. So I checked back at that NYC
>>>water quality report, and ironâs denominated in *micro*grams.

>>
>>Try the Burton's then... add it until you can taste it. When you can taste
>>it you've used too much.

>
>OK, I went over to Brooklyn Homebrew yesterday evening and laid down 75
>cents for a baggie of Burton/Trent salts. They didnt have
>documentation that would let me figure out the milligrams of each ion
>per gram of the powder, but they did say they recommend that brewers use
>30g per 5 gallons. So I decided to try 1 gram per liter.
>
>So far, so good, I must say. Ive brewed 3 different teas today that
>Im extremely familiar with: Sikkim Temi, a not-so-great Phoenix oolong,
>and a pretty good Alishan oolong. They all came out significantly
>better than Ive experienced with filtered NYC tap water alone. To
>varying extents with the 3 teas Ive noticed improvements in aroma,
>taste, and mouth feel. And my wife says her coffee tastes a lot better
>with the mineral-doped water, too.


Its probably time to follow up my own post, since Ive been using poor
mans Volvic for about a week and a half now. Im currently working
with a lower concentration of Burton/Trent salts: about a half milligram
per liter. The most consistent effect I get is that astringency is
reduced a lot, so I can push the leaves harder in terms of steep
temperature and duration without the liquor becoming harsh. I find
myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
Tieguanyin, which I wouldnt do with unaltered New York City tap water.
Im typing this 20 minutes after a fifth steep of the TGY, and the
huigan seems to go on forever.

/Lew
---
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http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Default Its the water, right?

If you add anything to tea you can taste it. I dont clean my cup. I
enjoy the tannins from the previous cups. I seem to remember city
water systems are ranked by the gov. Id like to know where NYC fits.
Mineral springs are very common around here. After a good soak I spend
an hour in the shower getting rid of the crusty feeling. My wife
enjoys the sandpaper effect. It is very common to read an article
about the mineral content of each spring. All the hot springs have
the disclaimer:This spring can kill you if you are diabetic or have
heart disease. Ill occasionally read about someone rushed to a
hospital from a spring. I will say there is nothing more trancendant
than sitting in a hot spring during a snow storm.

Jim

PS My one neighbor is a retired water treatment engineer. His
biggest complaint they didnt filter for pharmaceuticals.

On Mar 30, 3:57 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Lewis Perin > writes:
> (Scott Dorsey) writes:

>
> >>Lewis Perin > wrote:
> >>>Indeed. On the other hand...I need to apologize. Ive done a bit more
> >>>web searching on the topic of iron in water, and the more I looked the
> >>>more it seemed 40mg/liter was an outlier. So I checked back at that NYC
> >>>water quality report, and irons denominated in *micro*grams.

>
> >>Try the Burton's then... add it until you can taste it. When you can taste
> >>it you've used too much.

>
> >OK, I went over to Brooklyn Homebrew yesterday evening and laid down 75
> >cents for a baggie of Burton/Trent salts. They didnt have
> >documentation that would let me figure out the milligrams of each ion
> >per gram of the powder, but they did say they recommend that brewers use
> >30g per 5 gallons. So I decided to try 1 gram per liter.

>
> >So far, so good, I must say. Ive brewed 3 different teas today that
> >Im extremely familiar with: Sikkim Temi, a not-so-great Phoenix oolong,
> >and a pretty good Alishan oolong. They all came out significantly
> >better than Ive experienced with filtered NYC tap water alone. To
> >varying extents with the 3 teas Ive noticed improvements in aroma,
> >taste, and mouth feel. And my wife says her coffee tastes a lot better
> >with the mineral-doped water, too.

>
> Its probably time to follow up my own post, since Ive been using poor
> mans Volvic for about a week and a half now. Im currently working
> with a lower concentration of Burton/Trent salts: about a half milligram
> per liter. The most consistent effect I get is that astringency is
> reduced a lot, so I can push the leaves harder in terms of steep
> temperature and duration without the liquor becoming harsh. I find
> myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
> Tieguanyin, which I wouldnt do with unaltered New York City tap water.
> Im typing this 20 minutes after a fifth steep of the TGY, and the
> huigan seems to go on forever.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

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Lewis Perin > writes:

>Lewis Perin > writes:
>
(Scott Dorsey) writes:
>>
>>>Lewis Perin > wrote:
>>>>Indeed. On the other hand...I need to apologize. Iâve done a bit more
>>>>web searching on the topic of iron in water, and the more I looked the
>>>>more it seemed 40mg/liter was an outlier. So I checked back at that NYC
>>>>water quality report, and ironâs denominated in *micro*grams.
>>>
>>>Try the Burton's then... add it until you can taste it. When you can taste
>>>it you've used too much.

>>
>>OK, I went over to Brooklyn Homebrew yesterday evening and laid down 75
>>cents for a baggie of Burton/Trent salts. They didnt have
>>documentation that would let me figure out the milligrams of each ion
>>per gram of the powder, but they did say they recommend that brewers use
>>30g per 5 gallons. So I decided to try 1 gram per liter.
>>
>>So far, so good, I must say. Ive brewed 3 different teas today that
>>Im extremely familiar with: Sikkim Temi, a not-so-great Phoenix oolong,
>>and a pretty good Alishan oolong. They all came out significantly
>>better than Ive experienced with filtered NYC tap water alone. To
>>varying extents with the 3 teas Ive noticed improvements in aroma,
>>taste, and mouth feel. And my wife says her coffee tastes a lot better
>>with the mineral-doped water, too.

>
>Its probably time to follow up my own post, since Ive been using poor
>mans Volvic for about a week and a half now. Im currently working
>with a lower concentration of Burton/Trent salts: about a half milligram
>per liter. The most consistent effect I get is that astringency is
>reduced a lot, so I can push the leaves harder in terms of steep
>temperature and duration without the liquor becoming harsh. I find
>myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
>Tieguanyin, which I wouldnt do with unaltered New York City tap water.
>Im typing this 20 minutes after a fifth steep of the TGY, and the
>huigan seems to go on forever.


Actually, I should have read what I typed. Its a half *gram*, not
milligram, per liter that Im adding to New York City tap water these
days. Thanks to Wrongfucha for alerting me to this!

/Lew
---
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Default It's the water, right?

Hi Lewis,

> Its probably time to follow up my own post, since Ive been using poor
> mans Volvic for about a week and a half now.


Which means that you experimented that Volvic performs badly?
Did you try it with Japanese green teas, old sheng cha and wu yi wulong
teas?


> I find
> myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
> Tieguanyin, which I wouldnt do with unaltered New York City tap water.
> Im typing this 20 minutes after a fifth steep of the TGY, and the
> huigan seems to go on forever.


Volvic would indeed perform badly on such teas. It is not meant to be
used with them.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Rien ne serpe de courir ! » (Druides gaulois)
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Default It's the water, right?

Julien ÉLIE > writes:

>Hi Lewis,
>
>> It's probably time to follow up my own post, since I've been using "poor
>> man's Volvic" for about a week and a half now.

>
>Which means that you experimented that Volvic performs badly?


No, Im afraid I used an English idiom without considering that not all
my readers are native speakers of the language. When I wrote poor
mans Volvic it was not a value judgment, only an indication that the
New York tap water plus added minerals was an cheap, improvised
approximation to Volvic water. I continue to hold true Volvic in high
regard. Also, since Im now using a lower concentration of Burton/Trent
salts in by tea brewing water, Ive actually diverged more from true
Volvic in order to compound an all-purpose water that might perform
reasonably well with different types of tea leaves.

>Did you try it with Japanese green teas, old sheng cha and wu yi wulong
>teas?


I have tried the poor mans Volvic with mediocre Wuyi oolong and have
had good results. The oldest sheng Puer Ive tried it with has been
from 2003, and I was quite happy with the resulting liquor. I dont
have any sencha or gyokuro on hand currently.

>> I find myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
>> Tieguanyin, which I wouldn't do with unaltered New York
>> City tap water. I'm typing this 20 minutes after a fifth
>> steep of the TGY, and the huigan seems to go on forever.

>
>Volvic would indeed perform badly on such teas. It is not meant to be
>used with them.


What water do you like to use with these teas?

/Lew
---
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http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


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Hi Lewis,

>>> It's probably time to follow up my own post, since I've been using "poor
>>> man's Volvic" for about a week and a half now.

>>
>> Which means that you experimented that Volvic performs badly?

>
> No, Im afraid I used an English idiom without considering that not all
> my readers are native speakers of the language. When I wrote poor
> mans Volvic it was not a value judgment, only an indication that the
> New York tap water plus added minerals was an cheap, improvised
> approximation to Volvic water.


Oh, understood!
It is true that I had been a bit confused when I read your last article.



>>> I find myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
>>> Tieguanyin, which I wouldn't do with unaltered New York
>>> City tap water. I'm typing this 20 minutes after a fifth
>>> steep of the TGY, and the huigan seems to go on forever.

>>
>> Volvic would indeed perform badly on such teas. It is not meant to be
>> used with them.

>
> What water do you like to use with these teas?


With such teas, I use very low minerality (TDS about 20 or lower).
Mont-Roucous or Montcalm water as far as I am concerned:

http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...nt_Roucous.asp
http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...ance/Auzat.asp

Incidentally, this finewaters.com web site is awesome :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Tant qu'il y a des marmites, il y a de l'espoir ! » (Astérix)
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Julien ÉLIE > writes:

>[...]
>>>> I find myself using boiling PMV, e.g., with a very green, small-leaf
>>>> Tieguanyin, which I wouldn't do with unaltered New York
>>>> City tap water. I'm typing this 20 minutes after a fifth
>>>> steep of the TGY, and the huigan seems to go on forever.
>>>
>>> Volvic would indeed perform badly on such teas. It is not meant to be
>>> used with them.

>>
>> What water do you like to use with these teas?

>
>With such teas, I use very low minerality (TDS about 20 or lower).
>Mont-Roucous or Montcalm water as far as I am concerned:
>
> http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...nt_Roucous.asp


pH of 6 - thats pretty acidic.

> http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...ance/Auzat.asp
>
>Incidentally, this finewaters.com web site is awesome :-)


Yes, its very informative; thanks!

I forgot to ask you: how would you describe the negative effect a water
like Volvic has on greens and green oolongs?

/Lew
---
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http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Hi Lewis,

>> http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...nt_Roucous.asp

>
> pH of 6 - thats pretty acidic.


Yeah, even 5.85, as marked on the bottle. Yet, it gives amazingly good
results.



> I forgot to ask you: how would you describe the negative effect a water
> like Volvic has on greens and green oolongs?


Less flavour (which is an important aspect in wulongs) and generally
speaking less depth (less long-lasting/hui gan).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done
first. » (Murphy's Fourth Corollary)
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