Hello, all,
I have just seen an interesting turn of events in a patient who has in
the last few months started to drink a goodly amount of tea for
"health" reasons (self-prescribed). I have always been an advocate of
the benefits of tea drinking; however, this fellow did go a little
overboard and has been consuming 2/3 liters daily of pu-erh or oolong,
primarily and a bit of Earl Grey. It seems his B1 levels have dropped
considerably. After doing some of research and speaking with
colleagues, we discovered that tea consumption in this amount can
support B1 deficiency. This is important particularly for congestive
heart disease patients and those whom consume alcohol (too much) since
these folks tend to need more B1 and both conditions can also lead to
dificiency.
Just a note that if you do choose to drink copious amounts of this
wonderful stuff, watch your B vitamins (eat your whole grains).
These is meant to be a suggestion and not a substition for medical
advice.
Shen

you're sure there are no other reasons for his deficiency?

"Shen" > wrote in news:1169057446.772359.274170
@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Hello, all,
>
> I have just seen an interesting turn of events in a patient who has
> in the last few months started to drink a goodly amount of tea for
> "health" reasons (self-prescribed). I have always been an advocate of
> the benefits of tea drinking; however, this fellow did go a little
> overboard and has been consuming 2/3 liters daily of pu-erh or
> oolong, primarily and a bit of Earl Grey. It seems his B1 levels
> have dropped considerably. After doing some of research and speaking
> with colleagues, we discovered that tea consumption in this amount
> can support B1 deficiency. This is important particularly for
> congestive heart disease patients and those whom consume alcohol
> (too much) since these folks tend to need more B1 and both conditions
> can also lead to deficiency.
>
> Just a note that if you do choose to drink copious amounts of this
> wonderful stuff, watch your B vitamins (eat your whole grains).
> These is meant to be a suggestion and not a substitution for medical
> advice.
>
> Shen

Not disrespecting your professional status, and not overlooking the fact
that you posted this suggestion at all, nevertheless I would appreciate the
URL's of some of that research, if any of it is on line. I have an
intuitive doubt that the wonderful stuff can have any such effect -- but if
statistically valid research on has been done which tends to point to this,
I certainly want to know of it.

Meantime, consuming tea in amounts in excess of a l/d, I've been avoiding
thiamin supplementation for other reasons -- but I suppose a little more
kichari (mostly mung beans & brown rice) couldn't hurt, *especially* as
it's one of my favorite foods...

Ozzy

Ozzy,
I'll be happy to post the abstract sites and evidenciary data when I
return to my office next Monday. Kichari is my favorite, as well!
Shen
Ozzy wrote:
> "Shen" > wrote in news:1169057446.772359.274170
> @l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Hello, all,
> >
> > I have just seen an interesting turn of events in a patient who has
> > in the last few months started to drink a goodly amount of tea for
> > "health" reasons (self-prescribed). I have always been an advocate of
> > the benefits of tea drinking; however, this fellow did go a little
> > overboard and has been consuming 2/3 liters daily of pu-erh or
> > oolong, primarily and a bit of Earl Grey. It seems his B1 levels
> > have dropped considerably. After doing some of research and speaking
> > with colleagues, we discovered that tea consumption in this amount
> > can support B1 deficiency. This is important particularly for
> > congestive heart disease patients and those whom consume alcohol
> > (too much) since these folks tend to need more B1 and both conditions
> > can also lead to deficiency.
> >
> > Just a note that if you do choose to drink copious amounts of this
> > wonderful stuff, watch your B vitamins (eat your whole grains).
> > These is meant to be a suggestion and not a substitution for medical
> > advice.
> >
> > Shen
>
> Not disrespecting your professional status, and not overlooking the fact
> that you posted this suggestion at all, nevertheless I would appreciate the
> URL's of some of that research, if any of it is on line. I have an
> intuitive doubt that the wonderful stuff can have any such effect -- but if
> statistically valid research on has been done which tends to point to this,
> I certainly want to know of it.
>
> Meantime, consuming tea in amounts in excess of a l/d, I've been avoiding
> thiamin supplementation for other reasons -- but I suppose a little more
> kichari (mostly mung beans & brown rice) couldn't hurt, *especially* as
> it's one of my favorite foods...
>
> Ozzy

PS- We often use the research done by the Longevity Institute and UCLA
studies on longevity. However, I'll be happy to share specifics when I
can get to the data.
Shen
Shen wrote:
> Ozzy,
> I'll be happy to post the abstract sites and evidenciary data when I
> return to my office next Monday. Kichari is my favorite, as well!
> Shen
> Ozzy wrote:
> > "Shen" > wrote in news:1169057446.772359.274170
> > @l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> >
> > > Hello, all,
> > >
> > > I have just seen an interesting turn of events in a patient who has
> > > in the last few months started to drink a goodly amount of tea for
> > > "health" reasons (self-prescribed). I have always been an advocate of
> > > the benefits of tea drinking; however, this fellow did go a little
> > > overboard and has been consuming 2/3 liters daily of pu-erh or
> > > oolong, primarily and a bit of Earl Grey. It seems his B1 levels
> > > have dropped considerably. After doing some of research and speaking
> > > with colleagues, we discovered that tea consumption in this amount
> > > can support B1 deficiency. This is important particularly for
> > > congestive heart disease patients and those whom consume alcohol
> > > (too much) since these folks tend to need more B1 and both conditions
> > > can also lead to deficiency.
> > >
> > > Just a note that if you do choose to drink copious amounts of this
> > > wonderful stuff, watch your B vitamins (eat your whole grains).
> > > These is meant to be a suggestion and not a substitution for medical
> > > advice.
> > >
> > > Shen
> >
> > Not disrespecting your professional status, and not overlooking the fact
> > that you posted this suggestion at all, nevertheless I would appreciate the
> > URL's of some of that research, if any of it is on line. I have an
> > intuitive doubt that the wonderful stuff can have any such effect -- but if
> > statistically valid research on has been done which tends to point to this,
> > I certainly want to know of it.
> >
> > Meantime, consuming tea in amounts in excess of a l/d, I've been avoiding
> > thiamin supplementation for other reasons -- but I suppose a little more
> > kichari (mostly mung beans & brown rice) couldn't hurt, *especially* as
> > it's one of my favorite foods...
> >
> > Ozzy

"Shen" > wrote in
ups.com:

> PS- We often use the research done by the Longevity Institute and UCLA
> studies on longevity. However, I'll be happy to share specifics when I
> can get to the data.
> Shen

Thanks -- have a nice weekend then

Ozzy

On Jan 18, 9:19 pm, Ozzy <please.answer@NG> wrote:
> "Shen" > wrote roups.com:
>
> > PS- We often use the research done by theLongevityInstitute and UCLA
> > studies onlongevity. However, I'll be happy to share specifics when I
> > can get to the data.
> > Shen
>
> Thanks -- have a nice weekend then
>
> Ozzy

Ozzy,
This is the initial list of data. I also refer to JAMA< Lancet and
Medline abstracts. The National Institute of Health substanciates in
six abstrats, as well. Most of these studies refer to consumption of
one quart to two liters daily.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...t-thiamin.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/6/808

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/ART02760

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...nk&cd=30&gl=us

http://www.longevinst.org/nlt/newsletter19.htm

http://www.appliedhealth.com/nutri/page5964.ph

http://www.innvista.com/HEALTH/nutri...itamins/b1.htm

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/thiamin/

http://www.medal.org/visitor/www%5CA...h12.01.11.aspx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/55/1/15.pdf

Shen

On 8 Feb 2007 08:34:49 -0800, "Shen" > wrote:

>On Jan 18, 9:19 pm, Ozzy <please.answer@NG> wrote:
>> "Shen" > wrote roups.com:
>>
>> > PS- We often use the research done by theLongevityInstitute and UCLA
>> > studies onlongevity. However, I'll be happy to share specifics when I
>> > can get to the data.
>> > Shen
>>
>> Thanks -- have a nice weekend then
>>
>> Ozzy
>
>Ozzy,
>This is the initial list of data. I also refer to JAMA< Lancet and
>Medline abstracts. The National Institute of Health substanciates in
>six abstrats, as well. Most of these studies refer to consumption of
>one quart to two liters daily.
>http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...t-thiamin.html
>
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
>
>http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/6/808
>
>http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/ART02760
>
>http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...nk&cd=30&gl=us
>
>http://www.longevinst.org/nlt/newsletter19.htm
>
>http://www.appliedhealth.com/nutri/page5964.ph
>
>http://www.innvista.com/HEALTH/nutri...itamins/b1.htm
>
>http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/thiamin/
>
>http://www.medal.org/visitor/www%5CA...h12.01.11.aspx
>
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
>
>qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/55/1/15.pdf
>
>Shen

I don't see any mention of "1 quart to 2 liters per day" in any of those
references, let alone "most of them".

Some of these references do not mention tea at all.

When references mention tea, there is little or no supporting data in those
references, and coffee is usually referenced as well. There are statements
to the effect that tea/coffee/betelnuts could be a problem, but no clinical
data. In other words, no evidence is put forth.

In references addressing populations at risk, the subjects at risk seem to
be severely nutritionally compromised at the outset, with tea being a very
minor part of it. Beriberi patients, alcoholics already exhibiting symptoms
of severe nerve damage, etc.and who have no access to vitamins whatsoever
could perhaps be further put at risk by the thiaminase said to be in coffee
and tea. Hardly the worst of thier problems.

Tempest in a teapot, I'd say.

On Feb 8, 7:24 pm, Alvin Slyppe > wrote:
> On 8 Feb 2007 08:34:49 -0800, "Shen" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 18, 9:19 pm, Ozzy <please.answer@NG> wrote:
> >> "Shen" > wrote roups.com:
>
> >> > PS- We often use the research done by theLongevityInstitute and UCLA
> >> > studies onlongevity. However, I'll be happy to share specifics when I
> >> > can get to the data.
> >> > Shen
>
> >> Thanks -- have a nice weekend then
>
> >> Ozzy
>
> >Ozzy,
> >This is the initial list of data. I also refer to JAMA< Lancet and
> >Medline abstracts. The National Institute of Health substanciates in
> >six abstrats, as well. Most of these studies refer to consumption of
> >one quart to two liters daily.
> >http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...t-thiamin.html
>
> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...eve&db=PubMed&...
>
> >http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/6/808
>
> >http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/ART02760
>
> >http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...ielo.br/pdf/ab...
>
> >http://www.longevinst.org/nlt/newsletter19.htm
>
> >http://www.appliedhealth.com/nutri/page5964.ph
>
> >http://www.innvista.com/HEALTH/nutri...itamins/b1.htm
>
> >http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/thiamin/
>
> >http://www.medal.org/visitor/www%5CA...2.01%5Cch12.01....
>
> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...eve&db=PubMed&...
>
> >qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/55/1/15.pdf
>
> >Shen
>
> I don't see any mention of "1 quart to 2 liters per day" in any of those
> references, let alone "most of them".
>
> Some of these references do not mention tea at all.
>
> When references mention tea, there is little or no supporting data in those
> references, and coffee is usually referenced as well. There are statements
> to the effect that tea/coffee/betelnuts could be a problem, but no clinical
> data. In other words, no evidence is put forth.
>
> In references addressing populations at risk, the subjects at risk seem to
> be severely nutritionally compromised at the outset, with tea being a very
> minor part of it. Beriberi patients, alcoholics already exhibiting symptoms
> of severe nerve damage, etc.and who have no access to vitamins whatsoever
> could perhaps be further put at risk by the thiaminase said to be in coffee
> and tea. Hardly the worst of thier problems.
>
> Tempest in a teapot, I'd say.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's actually taught in basic nutrition courses in Naturapathic and
Medical schools as well as in required courses for Reg. Nutritionists
or Dieticians - polyphenol molecules contain tannin. B1 is tannin
resistant and therefore not absorbed. There are more polyphenol
molecules in tea than there is in coffee or beetle nuts, for that
matter.
Copious amounts of anything can cause problems. WHO and NIH in vitamin
contraindication studies pretaining to vitamin acessibility and
absorption mention this. Any reputable vitamin company or a PDR will
tell you the same. If you delve into the aforementioned abstracts
further, you will find the same.
As a practitioner, I just recommend moderation.
Get a Goggle highlighter - they all mention "tea".
This was posted only as a sentiment to remind everyone to take care.
That's all.
I certainly am not creating any "tempest" nor any tea-drinking scare.
Scarey is not my nature.
I myself drink a pot a day.
I do think, however, we human beings could be a little more aware of
self-care. That's all.
I prefer not to argue.
Shen

copious amounts of anything can cause problems. WHO and NIH in vitamin
> contraindication studies pretaining to vitamin acessibility and
> absorption mention this. Any reputable vitamin company or a PDR will
> tell you the same. If you delve into the aforementioned abstracts
> further, you will find the same.
> As a practitioner, I just recommend moderation.
> Get a Goggle highlighter - they all mention "tea".
> This was posted only as a sentiment to remind everyone to take care.
> Shen-

I totally believe this because I drink a lot of tea, am allergic to
wheat, have been on a nervous edge and find benefit from taking B
supplements. But I have a different question.

When you say 2-3 liters a day, do you mean 4 grams of leaves in a 4 oz
gaiwan that you brew 6-8 times is a liter, or do you mean 4 grams of
leaves 8 times in a day? Concentration makes a difference I think.

"Shen" > wrote in
oups.com:

> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...tural/patient-
thiamin.htm
....
> qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/55/1/15.pdf
>
> Shen

Thanks much, Shen, for taking the time. I thought you'd forgotten all
about it -- but then again I've been otherwise occuppied myself for the
last few days.

Considering what direction the thread took after you posted these
references, and your saying that you took a pot of tea a day yourself --
by which we know that you are *not* one of the people referred to below
-- let me remind the group of a passage from Mark Twain's
*Autobiography*, which I think is extremely revelant still:

"It seems a pity that the world should throw away so many good things
merely because they are unwholesome. I doubt if God has given us any
refreshment which, taken in moderation, is unwholesome, except microbes.
Yet there are people who strictly deprive themselves of each and every
eatable, drinkable and smokable which has in any way acquired a shady
reputation. They pay this price for health. And health is all they get
for it."

Ozzy

Ozzy <please.answer@NG> writes:

> "Shen" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
> > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...tural/patient-
> thiamin.htm
> ...
> > qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/55/1/15.pdf
> >
> > Shen
>
> Thanks much, Shen, for taking the time. I thought you'd forgotten all
> about it -- but then again I've been otherwise occuppied myself for the
> last few days.
>
> Considering what direction the thread took after you posted these
> references, and your saying that you took a pot of tea a day yourself --
> by which we know that you are *not* one of the people referred to below
> -- let me remind the group of a passage from Mark Twain's
> *Autobiography*, which I think is extremely revelant still:
>
> "It seems a pity that the world should throw away so many good things
> merely because they are unwholesome. I doubt if God has given us any
> refreshment which, taken in moderation, is unwholesome, except microbes.
> Yet there are people who strictly deprive themselves of each and every
> eatable, drinkable and smokable which has in any way acquired a shady
> reputation. They pay this price for health. And health is all they get
> for it."

As a Twainolator, I'm pained to note that the master was wrong about
microbes.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin > wrote in
news

>> "It seems a pity that the world should throw away so many good things
>> merely because they are unwholesome. I doubt if God has given us any
>> refreshment which, taken in moderation, is unwholesome, except
>> microbes. Yet there are people who strictly deprive themselves of
>> each and every eatable, drinkable and smokable which has in any way
>> acquired a shady reputation. They pay this price for health. And
>> health is all they get for it."
>
> As a Twainolator, I'm pained to note that the master was wrong about
> microbes.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

He wasn't, strictly, if you allow for what the term "microbes" meant to
the medical layman in his time -- microscopic disease organisms only,
hence the fewer the better. (I seriously doubt if he was aware of the
concept of benign intestinal florae.) No one can hold him responsible
for not-quite-so earthskaking discoveries made at the tail end of his
life, or maybe even after it, can they?

He records elsewhere in the same autobiography that he'd seen
homeopathic medicine go out and allopathic medicine (the precursor of
modern-day doctoring) come in during his lifetime, which included the
growing acceptance of the "germ theory" of disease and the start of
antiseptic practices.

I think this attempt to keep current is another example of how unique
and varied his mind was. Huckleberry Finn is a tale of (among other
things) the gross inhumanities of slavery, yet it was written by a
member of the slaveholding class who had initially fought for the South;
he also stood up for the Jews in print, another thing that you'd hardly
expect from an American gentile born in 1835; etc.

I am also a bit a bit of a Twainolator, you see.

Ozzy