Greetings from Orlando where I await tropical storm Ernesto:

I assume that I am like many home-hobbyists bakers, I like to experiment. If I can keep the variable limited to one thing (which at times is practically impossible even in an air conditioned, enclosed environment), I do learn something.

Lately, I have been using the "Dough Ratios" information found at : http://www.theartisan.net/dough_ratios.htm . I like to make breakfast breads that incorporate fruits, nuts and seeds and that are leavened with my starter (I wouldn't dare call this sourdough because some would scream, rant and rave cluttering this thread with comments that if it isn't just flour salt and water, it cannot be sourdough!).

Anyway, some of my experiments come closer to lightly, leavened fruit cake versus naturally leavened bread containing fruit, nuts and seeds. Having stumbled upon the above referenced link I became puzzled (an excerpt is copied below):

Dough Ratios Table
% Ingredient Variables Example
100 Flour 60% Hard Wheat 5 Lbs.
60-85% Liquid Eggs-25% -- Milk 50% 3 Lbs.
3-5 Yeast NA 2.5 - 4 Oz.
2-4 Salt Vinegar may be substituted 1.5 - 3 Oz.
0-10 Sugar Honey, Brown or Maple Sugar 0 - Oz.
0-10 Shortening Oil, Margarine or butter 0 - 8 Oz.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ratios, as given, are baker's percentages where ingredients are given as a percentage of the weight of flour (That is, 8 oz. of shortening, oil, margarine or butter is 10% of 5 pounds {80 ounces} -- the weight of the flour.). However, the line below this table states:
Fruits, Nuts, Vegetable and Cheeses: Up to 10% of the dough weight or fresh herbs up to 0.05% of the dough weight may be added.
I note that this says "dough weight." Obviously a simple version of this recipe will produce roughly 8 pounds of dough. Ten percent of dough weight would therefore be 12.8 ounces of fruits, nuts, etc. However, if the implication is everything is expressed in terms of the weight of flour then 10% of 5 pounds is 8 ounces.

OK, which is it?

Second, I assume that this is this the total for all additions. That is, the 10% includes all such additions (be it determined either 8 or 12.8 ounces for said example) . Not 10% raisins, 10% nuts, 10% seeds, etc.

Many thanks.

Ray

"OK, which is it?"

Hi Ray--

Percentages are based upon the total dry wt. of flour, thus if you
intend to use 5 lbs. of flour your 100% = 5 lbs. You know how to
proceed from there.

Thanks for posting the URL for the dough ratios chart. Very helpful.

Linda

That information gives rather conservative values but quite
satisfactory to the bakery novice
http://www.theartisan.net/dough_ratios.htm
But thiid should not be taken seriously....there is something amiss in
it.

'That vinegar can substitute for salt'
Assuming the author means vinegar as dilute acetic acid CH3COOH and
salt as NaCl...
How can that happen when they have different functionality
>From the point of formulation chemistry and ingredient interactions as
applied to doughmaking, it does not make sense.

WRK wrote:
> Greetings from Orlando where I await tropical storm Ernesto:
>
> I assume that I am like many home-hobbyists bakers, I like to experiment. If I can keep the variable limited to one thing (which at times is practically impossible even in an air conditioned, enclosed environment), I do learn something.
>
> Lately, I have been using the "Dough Ratios" information found at : http://www.theartisan.net/dough_ratios.htm . I like to make breakfast breads that incorporate fruits, nuts and seeds and that are leavened with my starter (I wouldn't dare call this sourdough because some would scream, rant and rave cluttering this thread with comments that if it isn't just flour salt and water, it cannot be sourdough!).
>
> Anyway, some of my experiments come closer to lightly, leavened fruit cake versus naturally leavened bread containing fruit, nuts and seeds. Having stumbled upon the above referenced link I became puzzled (an excerpt is copied below):
>
> Dough Ratios Table
> % Ingredient Variables Example
> 100 Flour 60% Hard Wheat 5 Lbs.
> 60-85% Liquid Eggs-25% -- Milk 50% 3 Lbs.
> 3-5 Yeast NA 2.5 - 4 Oz.
> 2-4 Salt Vinegar may be substituted 1.5 - 3 Oz.
> 0-10 Sugar Honey, Brown or Maple Sugar 0 - Oz.
> 0-10 Shortening Oil, Margarine or butter 0 - 8 Oz.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The ratios, as given, are baker's percentages where ingredients are given as a percentage of the weight of flour (That is, 8 oz. of shortening, oil, margarine or butter is 10% of 5 pounds {80 ounces} -- the weight of the flour.). However, the line below this table states:
> Fruits, Nuts, Vegetable and Cheeses: Up to 10% of the dough weight or fresh herbs up to 0.05% of the dough weight may be added.
> I note that this says "dough weight." Obviously a simple version of this recipe will produce roughly 8 pounds of dough. Ten percent of dough weight would therefore be 12.8 ounces of fruits, nuts, etc. However, if the implication is everything is expressed in terms of the weight of flour then 10% of 5 pounds is 8 ounces.
>
> OK, which is it?
>
> Second, I assume that this is this the total for all additions. That is, the 10% includes all such additions (be it determined either 8 or 12.8 ounces for said example) . Not 10% raisins, 10% nuts, 10% seeds, etc.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Ray
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6CC19.0B934F50
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> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Greetings from Orlando where I await tropical storm
> Ernesto:</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I assume that I am like many home-hobbyists bakers,
> I like to experiment.&nbsp; If I can keep the variable limited to one thing
> (which at times is practically impossible even in an air conditioned, enclosed
> environment), I do learn something.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lately, I have been using the "Dough Ratios"
> information found at : <A
> href="http://www.theartisan.net/dough_ratios.htm">http://www.theartisan.net/dough_ratios.htm</A>&nbsp;.&nbsp;
> I like to make breakfast breads that incorporate fruits, nuts and seeds and that
> are leavened with my starter (I wouldn't dare call this sourdough because some
> would scream, rant and rave&nbsp;cluttering this thread with comments that if
> it&nbsp;isn't just flour salt and water, it cannot be sourdough!).</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anyway, some of my experiments come closer to
> lightly, leavened fruit cake versus naturally leavened bread containing fruit,
> nuts and seeds.&nbsp; Having stumbled upon the above referenced link I became
> puzzled (an excerpt is copied below):</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><U>Dough Ratios Table<BR></U>%
> &nbsp;Ingredient&nbsp;Variables&nbsp;Example&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;100&nbsp;Flour&nbsp;60%
> Hard Wheat&nbsp;5 Lbs.&nbsp;<BR>60-85%&nbsp;Liquid&nbsp;Eggs-25% -- Milk
> 50%&nbsp;3 Lbs.&nbsp;<BR>3-5&nbsp;Yeast&nbsp;NA&nbsp;2.5 - 4
> Oz.&nbsp;<BR>2-4&nbsp;Salt&nbsp;Vinegar may be substituted&nbsp;1.5 - 3
> Oz.&nbsp;<BR>0-10&nbsp;Sugar&nbsp;Honey, Brown or Maple&nbsp; Sugar&nbsp;0 -
> Oz.&nbsp;<BR>0-10&nbsp;Shortening&nbsp;Oil, Margarine or butter&nbsp;0 - 8
> Oz.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV>
> <HR>
> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The ratios, as given, are&nbsp;baker's percentages
> where ingredients are given as a percentage of the weight of flour (That is, 8
> oz. of&nbsp;shortening, oil, margarine or butter&nbsp;is 10% of 5
> pounds&nbsp;{80 ounces}&nbsp;-- the weight of the flour.).&nbsp; However, the
> line below this table states:</FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>Fruits, Nuts,
> Vegetable and Cheeses:&nbsp; Up to 10% of the dough weight or fresh herbs up
> to 0.05% of the dough weight may be added.</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>I note that this says "dough
> weight."&nbsp; Obviously a simple version of this recipe will produce roughly 8
> pounds of dough.&nbsp; Ten percent of dough weight would therefore be 12.8
> ounces of fruits, nuts, etc.&nbsp; However, if the implication is everything is
> expressed in terms of the weight of flour then 10% of 5 pounds is 8
> ounces.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>OK, which is it?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Second, I assume that this is this the
> total for all additions.&nbsp; That is, the 10% includes all such additions (be
> it determined either 8 or 12.8 ounces for said example) .&nbsp; Not 10% raisins,
> 10% nuts, 10% seeds, etc.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Many thanks.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Ray</FONT></DIV></FONT>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6CC19.0B934F50--

I am hoping you get lots of replies, Ray. Last night I was still musing
about your query when I realized that since professional bakers make up
dough in bulk, they must cut off lumps for variously-flavored loaves.
Raisins and almonds may go into one mass, for example, and chopped
apples and walnuts into another. For ease of handling they must weigh
the dough and figure fruit/nut amounts accordingly. So this morning I
think we're both right, for the right reasons, for different steps in
the method. ;-)

But I'd like to see what others have to say.

Let us know how all this turns out, of course.

Linda

On 31 Aug 2006 07:19:08 -0700, Linda Gerard > wrote:
> I am hoping you get lots of replies, Ray. Last night I was still musing
> about your query when I realized that since professional bakers make up
> dough in bulk, they must cut off lumps for variously-flavored loaves.
> Raisins and almonds may go into one mass, for example, and chopped
> apples and walnuts into another. For ease of handling they must weigh
> the dough and figure fruit/nut amounts accordingly.

Some do, some don't. Many bakers have batch size limitations. With
my mixer I was limited to about 21 loaves in one mixer and 45 in
another. As a result, it wasn't really feasible to make a larger
batch and divide it. About the only thing we did that with was
bagels. Some got cinnamon and raisins, some got garlic, some were
left plain. Even with my raisin bread which is based on my sourdough
Challah, we did separate batches because we did enough of each that it
wasn't feasible to make an extra sized batch and add raisins to part
of it.

Also, many bakers prefer to tailor the bread to the ingredients. I
got a recipe from a friend and she will make it with jalapeno peppers
and cheddar cheese or roasted garlic and cheddar cheese. Most bakers
would prefer to tailor the doughs more than she does.

Mike