I have two starters. One is Carl's, the other one is homemade that I
have had a couple of months or more now. I keep my starters on the
kitchen counter at room temp. (70 or 71) when they are not in their
tiny little jars in the frig staying cold.

When I begin feeding them in their 'starter' containers, Carl's starter
does a lot more 'rising' and bubbling and smells more yeasty. My
starter does not react the same even though it is loaded with bubbles
and smells good. But when I make the dough, my starter does an
excellent job at rising the dough, almost better than Carl's starter.
It even appears like it is not growing or doing very much and I keep
feeding it attempting to get it ready to form the dough. I almost gave
up on it yesterday and tossed it, since it did not behave very well,
until I made a loaf today, and it tripled on the first rise and doubled
on the 2nd and all of that happened in 3 hours or so. And MY starter
has a much more sour taste than Carl's. Even if I use white flour. I
guess the LB that were originally present in the hard white wheat that
it was created from, are still hanging around .......

So, basically, with my starter, it does not have to double in size in
the container at room temp to be ready to use. It just has to be fed a
few times before making the bread.

And it makes it convenient since I don't have be concerned about it
doubling and overflowing the container while I am at work.

John

On 11 Dec 2005 15:47:15 -0800, "BigJohn"
> wrote:

>I
>guess the LB that were originally present in the hard white wheat that
>it was created from, are still hanging around .......

Hi John,

Apparently, the lactobacilli are not in the grain at all...

(As weird as this may sound), they are in the baker!

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2005 15:47:15 -0800, "BigJohn"
> > wrote:
>
>> I
>> guess the LB that were originally present in the hard white wheat that
>> it was created from, are still hanging around .......
>
> Hi John,
>
> Apparently, the lactobacilli are not in the grain at all...
>
> (As weird as this may sound), they are in the baker!

Kenneth,

let's not start this up again.

The two LB's which are only found in sourdoughs are LB SF and LB ponti.
All others occur in nature including humans and may very well come from
the grain.

There are probably more than 20 different LB's found in sourdoughs.

Leaving the human source out, here a few:

LB brevis can come from cowshit,
LB buchneri can come from fermented plant material,
LB fermentum can come from fermented plant material,
LB reuteri from feces,
LB delbrueckii milk and cheese,
LB plantarum from cowshit,
....

What happens after a couple of weeks of continuous propagation in a
bakery is another story.

Initially, there may well be LB's and yeasts coming from the grain,
probably much more so than from a baker.

Also, that certain LB's have been found on materials does not exclude
they are somewhere else as well, just not yet proven to come from there
for whatever reason - not enough germs to grow, difficult to culture, no
interest or research money and what have you.

As far as I remember, a Monika Spiller has a patent of how to grow a
certain barm sourdough by initially rising the temperature to prefer
organisms which then determine properties of that particular sourdough.

From Pat # 4,666,719:

3. A process for initiating a culture capable of yielding storage-stable
natural leavening barm which
comprises forming a slurry of whole wheat flour and sprouted cereal
grain in water, the whole wheat
flour being the source of viable cells of Lactobacillus brevis
(atypical), (ATCC (53295) and
Saccharomyces dairensis, (ATCC 20782), and maintaining said slurry at a
temperature of about
41.degree. C. to effect preferential growth of said Lactobacillus and
said Saccharomyces and thereafter
holding the slurry at a temperature below about 41.degree. C.

So - most likely cow shit, not necessary bull;-)


Samartha

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:55:16 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>
>Kenneth,
>
>let's not start this up again.
>
>The two LB's which are only found in sourdoughs are LB SF and LB ponti.
>All others occur in nature including humans and may very well come from
>the grain.
>
>There are probably more than 20 different LB's found in sourdoughs.
>
>Leaving the human source out, here a few:
>
>LB brevis can come from cowshit,
>LB buchneri can come from fermented plant material,
>LB fermentum can come from fermented plant material,
>LB reuteri from feces,
>LB delbrueckii milk and cheese,
>LB plantarum from cowshit,
>...
>
>What happens after a couple of weeks of continuous propagation in a
>bakery is another story.
>
>Initially, there may well be LB's and yeasts coming from the grain,
>probably much more so than from a baker.
>
>Also, that certain LB's have been found on materials does not exclude
>they are somewhere else as well, just not yet proven to come from there
>for whatever reason - not enough germs to grow, difficult to culture, no
>interest or research money and what have you.
>
>As far as I remember, a Monika Spiller has a patent of how to grow a
>certain barm sourdough by initially rising the temperature to prefer
>organisms which then determine properties of that particular sourdough.
>
> From Pat # 4,666,719:
>
>3. A process for initiating a culture capable of yielding storage-stable
>natural leavening barm which
>comprises forming a slurry of whole wheat flour and sprouted cereal
>grain in water, the whole wheat
>flour being the source of viable cells of Lactobacillus brevis
>(atypical), (ATCC (53295) and
>Saccharomyces dairensis, (ATCC 20782), and maintaining said slurry at a
>temperature of about
>41.degree. C. to effect preferential growth of said Lactobacillus and
>said Saccharomyces and thereafter
>holding the slurry at a temperature below about 41.degree. C.
>
>So - most likely cow shit, not necessary bull;-)
>
>
>Samartha

Hi Samartha,

Of course you may be correct, but my reading had been that
the LB had never been isolated from grain alone, but were
found in dental plaque etc.

Am I incorrect?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> Hi Samartha,
>
> Of course you may be correct, but my reading had been that
> the LB had never been isolated from grain alone, but were
> found in dental plaque etc.
>
> Am I incorrect?
>

No - it's a partial aspect.

What BigJohn described - that one particular sourdough grown from a
particular grain is different and seems to keep it's properties would
indicate a grain origin.

Let's stick with the Monica Spiller example, LB brevis, has been
isolated from:
milk,
cheese,
sauerkraut,
sourdough,
silage,
cow dung,
human intestines and feces
rats

and may live on many other places as well.

As you stated in your reply, that they are not found in the grain at all
but in the baker, I felt compelled to point out that the situation may
be more complex because you excluded the possibility of a grain source.

Maybe the LB's are not "in" the grain, but "on" it and in the milling
process get into the flour.

With a certain environment suitable for their development, they are
getting established. The Spiller example proofs it. The LB brevis has
not been isolated from the mouth area and thinking that lab technicians
are very careful about cross contamination, we may safely exclude the
other human source.

Not all the LB's found in sourdoughs are living in people's mouth, where
else are they coming from on a natural product like grain? Probably the
surrounding where it is grown.


Samartha

I was trawling through reports on Lb's one report did say that
Lactobacillus sanfransisco had been isolated on the teeth of African
children I can't find this link as I did that particular search a long
time ago but I did get this one.

"Lactobacillus, a benign microbe commonly found in the mouth,"
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_r...27-04&show=yes

I understand that Samartha is refuting Kenneth's use of 'at all' but
sledgehammer and nut come to mind : -)
> With a certain environment suitable for their development, they are
> getting established.
? not sure exactly what Samartha means.

The baker has an ample supply ready and waiting to inoculate the
nascent starter. It seems a more likely source than 'dry' grain. I
think my point really is that one cannot be certain from that side of
one's computer screen what has happened in someone else's culture. Only
that it is probable, possible or likely : -)

L brevis isn't the only Lactobacillus out there I'm not sure why
Samartha in focusing solely on this species.
Volume 2: Issue 3
Lactobacillus species in supragingival plaque in subjects with
hyposalivation
http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/a...601-5029&vid=2

A quick Google search churns out loads of these examples.

TG

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 07:53:12 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>>
>
>No - it's a partial aspect.
>
>What BigJohn described - that one particular sourdough grown from a
>particular grain is different and seems to keep it's properties would
>indicate a grain origin.
>
>Let's stick with the Monica Spiller example, LB brevis, has been
>isolated from:
>milk,
>cheese,
>sauerkraut,
>sourdough,
>silage,
>cow dung,
>human intestines and feces
>rats
>
>and may live on many other places as well.
>
>As you stated in your reply, that they are not found in the grain at all
>but in the baker, I felt compelled to point out that the situation may
>be more complex because you excluded the possibility of a grain source.
>
>Maybe the LB's are not "in" the grain, but "on" it and in the milling
>process get into the flour.
>
>With a certain environment suitable for their development, they are
>getting established. The Spiller example proofs it. The LB brevis has
>not been isolated from the mouth area and thinking that lab technicians
>are very careful about cross contamination, we may safely exclude the
>other human source.
>
>Not all the LB's found in sourdoughs are living in people's mouth, where
>else are they coming from on a natural product like grain? Probably the
>surrounding where it is grown.
>
>
>Samartha

Hi Samartha,

Thanks, as always, for your interesting comments,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Samartha Deva wrote:

> Kenneth wrote:
>
> Let's stick with the Monica Spiller example, LB brevis, has been
> isolated from:
> milk,
> cheese,
> sauerkraut,
> sourdough,
> silage,
> cow dung,
> human intestines and feces
> rats
>
> and may live on many other places as well.

Indeed! Spiller's patent (cf.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4666719.html ) states that she had
submitted a specimen to ATCC for storage and to make it available
throughout the life of the patent. I followed that up (
http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/n...numResults.cfm ) and they
state the Isolation source as wheat!


Dave

Dave Bell wrote:

> I followed that up (http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/n...numResults.cfm ) and they
> state the Isolation source as wheat!

I am not surprised at this. You can look at thread history and see that
whole grains are preferred for initiating starters. In my experience
rye is best, then wheat. In my experience, soaked, mashed grain works
better than dry milled grain. Logic indicates if LB's come from us the
choice of grain should be immaterial and grocery store white, bolted,
flour should work just fine. Except we know it does not.

It is hard to get clean starts with old flour and quite difficult with
white flour.

I am glad that someone, finally, provided documentation that grain
carries the critters. I was getting tired of nose puppies, spontaneous
generation via air, San Francisco air (though I like Acme's high tech
fermenters) , SF airport air etc...

Will wrote:>

< snip: a rant >

I forgot my smiley face at the end of it :-). I like SFO bread. It's
just the ticket when you get off the cattle boat err...plane from HK.

Will wrote:

> Will wrote:>
>
> < snip: a rant >
>
> I forgot my smiley face at the end of it :-). I like SFO bread. It's
> just the ticket when you get off the cattle boat err...plane from HK.
>
You should come up into the City then and try the bread up here in the
City. They probably ship the staler stuff down to SFO, the airport.

B/

Well... even if not bakery fresh, SFO knocks most of the general
competition. Fly into Milwaukee sometime <g>.

Though I do agree with the you over all, I've made a couple of great
starters from white flour, including Italian 00 pasta flour, which I
liked the best. Your assumption is that sifting the bran etc removes
the lb's it would make sense that enough got through. (Speculation I
know) I've never held with fairies doing the work, they'd get their
wings wet. Now come on. : -)

TG

TG wrote:

>Your assumption is that sifting the bran etc removes
> the lb's....

I do think maintaining the grain's natural "ecology" intact is helpful.
Look at it this way...
do instant mashed potatoes taste like real mashed potatoes?

TG wrote:

>
>...I've never held with fairies doing the work, they'd get their
> wings wet...
>


Bread Faeries is the preferred spelling. And, you had better hope that
your expressions of disbelief do not irritate them to the point where
they take action to change your mind. Ask in any Irish pub and you will
probably hear some eye opening tales of things that happen to people who
get on the wrong side of any of the Wee Folk.

If you are going to make your own starters, you should be concentrating
on keeping good Karma and a welcoming (to Wee Folk) atmosphere in your
kitchen.

Regards

O'Charles

>From what I understand from the above comments:

It appears then that LB come most likely from the wheat or whatever
materials are used in creating a starter (grapes, raisons, etc.).

But what about the yeasts? They do come from the air as well as the
materials, correct? And does it matter what kind of wild yeast is in
a sourdough starter? Are different yeasts able to rise the dough
better? And if this is true, then leaving a starter open to the air
when being created, could attrach a 'better' yeast?

John

"BigJohn" > wrote in message oups.com...

> ... what about the yeasts? They do come from the air as well as the
> materials, correct?

The good news is this: If you keep sniffing your vegetating starter attempt,
stuff will grow in it. Don't ask too many questions. With just a bit of luck,
it will be the right stuff.

The best stuff comes in the mail.

--
Dicky

BigJohn wrote:
>>From what I understand from the above comments:
>
> It appears then that LB come most likely from the wheat or whatever
> materials are used in creating a starter (grapes, raisons, etc.).
>
> But what about the yeasts? They do come from the air as well as the
> materials, correct? And does it matter what kind of wild yeast is in
> a sourdough starter? Are different yeasts able to rise the dough
> better? And if this is true, then leaving a starter open to the air
> when being created, could attrach a 'better' yeast?

Depends what's in your air. Where do you live?

Another factor may be germ count and -density.

1 g of air has how much volume and how many germs?
1 g of flour has how much volume and how many germs?

So, if the opening of your growing container has a certain area, where
air can come in from outside - does the air actually circulate there?

What is the exposure to germs from the air - yeast spores or whatever -
to that surface?

How does that transport system compare to the germ density in flour,
already somehow moist (14 % moisture in flours) and ready to take off as
soon as it gets wetter?

I don't know the answer to all those questions - I have the germ counts
in flour somewhere - they are impressive.

But my hunch is that the few critters floating around and getting in
that hole at one point in their existence won't stand a chance against
the competition already growing in that container.

Apart from that, it probably matters what kind of yeasts you get - if
you look at SDI's variety, they seem to differ with their rising ability
and speed - me thinks that's mostly yeast activity.

On the other side, one never knows what the LB's out of the mouth of
African children can accomplish.

Those are tough questions, I tell you.


Samartha

Hi Will, I understand your analogy but since the point of the exercise
is to activate the latent Lb's and yeasts I don't think it matters too
much, from my experience. If you have a particular flour and you don't
want to buy another just to make a starter then I would say, from my
experience, that I would say don't buy the other flour. If you have no
flour at all nor any preference for a flour and you want to make a
starter then I would say optimise your potential and get some whole
grain rye and wheat.

I think the advice is contextual rather than absolute.

TG

Will wrote:

> I do think maintaining the grain's natural "ecology" intact is helpful.
> Look at it this way...
> do instant mashed potatoes taste like real mashed potatoes?

> On the other side, one never knows what the LB's out of the mouth of
> African children can accomplish.
>
> Those are tough questions, I tell you.
>
>
> Samartha

lol

TG

> Bread Faeries is the preferred spelling. And, you had better hope that
> your expressions of disbelief do not
>
> O'Charles

Well I asked the fairy that was making my shoes this morning about that
and he said to me. "Who dear? Me, dear? Bread, dear? Oh, no, not me
dear! I don't do bread, dear! Shoes is what I do, dear. How very dare
you. I think you're confusing me with that *** baker down Drury Lane.
Ooh! he is a catty, never liked him, dear. And we haven't spelt faery
with an 'E' since we dropped the Thorn in 'The Fairy Folk', dear.
You've got to move with the times haven't you, dear?"

So there you go.

TG

TG wrote:
> Hi Will, I understand your analogy but since the point of the exercise
> is to activate the latent Lb's and yeasts I don't think it matters too
> much, from my experience. If you have a particular flour and you don't
> want to buy another

Will writes:

I wasn't specific enough. When I speak of rye or wheat I mean grain,
not flour. I didn't say that. My bad.

I don't use flour for starters. I used to, and in those days realized
that freshly ground worked better than the milled/packaged. Now I just
soak grain and mash it. Mostly I soak it and wet mill it. For whatever
the reasons... that gives a more nuanced starter. Perhaps the
population of critters is more diverse or maybe it has something to do
with enzyme activation as the grain gets ready to sprout. I can see
where mechanically refining flour might cause a few critter varieties
to drop out. It certainly precludes germination activity.

> I think the advice is contextual rather than absolute.

It is that <g>.

By the way, there isn't any more gender confusion in faeries than the
rest of us, though I thought your post was amusing.

Will

TG wrote:
>> On the other side, one never knows what the LB's out of the mouth of
>> African children can accomplish.
>>
>> Those are tough questions, I tell you.
>>
>>
>> Samartha
>
> lol

Thanks - actually, that African children plaque story has been
discredited apparently since the guy doing it was not "scientific"
enough i. e. clean procedure or something like that.

And - LB SF has been isolated over 30 years ago, one would think that it
would have been reported from more than one source that it's found in
human mouth cavities.

Why a LB species which is optimized for maltose orgies and also pretty
hairy to culture would find it's home in human mouths or plaque and
otherwise only in sourdoughs could be a good question. Not that there
are no odd things in nature.


Samartha

Will wrote:

> I wasn't specific enough. When I speak of rye or wheat I mean grain,
> not flour. I didn't say that. My bad.
>
> I don't use flour for starters. I used to,...

Oh, right. I haven't seen the berries available to buy here in the UK,
I'm sure there are places but I haven't been lucky enough to find them.
I'll have to keep my eyes peeled.

>
> It is that <g>.
>
> By the way, there isn't any more gender confusion in faeries than the
> rest of us, though I thought your post was amusing.
>
> Will

lol, thanks.

TG

Samartha Deva wrote:


> Why a LB species which is optimized for maltose orgies and also pretty
> hairy to culture would find it's home in human mouths or plaque and
> otherwise only in sourdoughs could be a good question. Not that there
> are no odd things in nature.
>
>
> Samartha

That does make sense. I'm glad I sent off my San Francisco starter
then, rather than using my tooth brush to stir the pot : -)

TG

Will wrote:

> I wasn't specific enough. When I speak of rye or wheat I mean grain,
> not flour. I didn't say that. My bad.
>
> I don't use flour for starters. I used to,...

Oh, right. I've never seen the berries available to buy here in the UK,
I'm sure there places but I haven't been lucky enough to find them.
I'll have to keep my eyes peeled.

>
> It is that <g>.
>
> By the way, there isn't any more gender confusion in faeries than the
> rest of us, though I thought your post was amusing.
>
> Will

lol, thanks.

TG

TG wrote:
>...And we haven't spelt faery
> with an 'E' since we dropped the Thorn in 'The Fairy Folk', dear.
> You've got to move with the times haven't you, dear?"...
>

Well, a great majority of people who keep up with the times are eating
stuff like Wonder Bread. Others are mucking around with paste, pap and
raw pudding trying to make a starter that works. A few , with an
appreciation of history, mythology and old, proven starters are eating
good bread.


Where is that brilliant lady photographer who managed to take a picture
of a Bread Faerie? There seems to be another cadre of unbelievers.

Regards,

Charles

You're scaring me now Charles.

Are you talking about the Cottingley fairies?
http://www.parascope.com/articles/0397/ghost08h.jpg

TG

>
> Well, a great majority of people who keep up with the times are eating
> stuff like Wonder Bread. Others are mucking around with paste, pap and
> raw pudding trying to make a starter that works. A few , with an
> appreciation of history, mythology and old, proven starters are eating
> good bread.
>
>
> Where is that brilliant lady photographer who managed to take a picture
> of a Bread Faerie? There seems to be another cadre of unbelievers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

Charles Perry wrote:

> Others are mucking around with paste, pap and
> raw pudding trying to make a starter that works.

Now, now, those of us who muck... do so sincerely <g>.

Will

Will wrote:
>
> I don't use flour for starters. I used to, and in those days realized
> that freshly ground worked better than the milled/packaged. Now I just
> soak grain and mash it. Mostly I soak it and wet mill it. For whatever
> the reasons... that gives a more nuanced starter. Perhaps the
> population of critters is more diverse or maybe it has something to do
> with enzyme activation as the grain gets ready to sprout. I can see

Do you have a web site where I could look this up? Sounds intriguing,
and I have a Vita-Mix that would churn those little critters up nicely.

TG wrote:

>
> Are you talking about the Cottingley fairies?


No, not the Cottingley faires. However, the pictures posted by Heather
in Swampscott were very similar in regard to form and feature.

My Irish grandmother explained to me how to bake good bread. She
explained the necessary conditions for the cook and the kitchen which I
have translated into good Karma. She also explained about the Bread
Faeries that raise the bread.

Now , some of you may think that the Bread Faerie explanation is not
science, however it is. In Fact, it is better science than what is
proposed by some of the Latin word slingers here about. With the
scientific method you make some observations and then develop a
hypothesis that fits the observations. Then you make more observations
and if the facts continue to fit the hypothesis, lo and behold you have
yourself a theory. The Bread Faerie explanation of how bread rises
certainly qualifies as a scientific theory. It fits the observations
and has certainly been around for genereations and generations. Long
enough for any obvious error to be discovered.

You may or may not know that Old Celtic was a language closely related
to Italic which was the precursor to Latin. In any event, flanging
about words in some Johnny come lately language does not make the
proposition any more scientific than the mythological truth. Let’s take
a look at what we are offered as “science”

First, it is said, that sourdough culture is a mixture of yeast and
Lactobacilli. OK just for arguments sake we will accept that. What
yeast then? Well, we are offered S. cervasie, Torulopsis holmii , S.
exiguus, S.imusitatus and so on. Well, what is it? One paper says
they sporulate another, (by the same author) says they do not. What?

What of the Lactobacillus then? Well we are offered L brevis, L.
pontis, L. sanfranciscus, Lady Godiva, (just checking if you were still
with me) and so on and on. And, where might these oddly named creatures
come from? In truth, when pressed you have to admit that nobody knows
for certain. However we are offered such diverse and elegant
propositions as from human boogers to silage fumes wafting on the breeze
to lodge on wheat fields or even from pasture cow pies. How can you
compare this patchwork of crude, half baked ideas to the elegant theory
of Bread Faeries. You “science" advocates, by my lights, don’t even
have a good hypothesis - let alone a theory.
Cow pie in Latin is still crap.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote:
> TG wrote:
> >...And we haven't spelt faery
> > with an 'E' since we dropped the Thorn in 'The Fairy Folk', dear.
> > You've got to move with the times haven't you, dear?"...
> >
>
> Well, a great majority of people who keep up with the times are eating
> stuff like Wonder Bread. Others are mucking around with paste, pap and
> raw pudding trying to make a starter that works. A few , with an
> appreciation of history, mythology and old, proven starters are eating
> good bread.
>
>
> Where is that brilliant lady photographer who managed to take a picture
> of a Bread Faerie? There seems to be another cadre of unbelievers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

Or is this the picture

&fname=Mrs%20Sourd ough%20Fairy%20:%20-)

TG

Charles Perry wrote:
> TG wrote:
>
> >
> > Are you talking about the Cottingley fairies?
>
>
> No, not the Cottingley faires. However, the pictures posted by Heather
> in Swampscott were very similar in regard to form and feature.
>
> My Irish grandmother explained to me how to bake good bread. She
> explained the necessary conditions for the cook and the kitchen which I
> have translated into good Karma. She also explained about the Bread
> Faeries that raise the bread.
>
> Now , some of you may think that the Bread Faerie explanation is not
> science, however it is. In Fact, it is better science than what is
> proposed by some of the Latin word slingers here about. With the
> scientific method you make some observations and then develop a
> hypothesis that fits the observations. Then you make more observations
> and if the facts continue to fit the hypothesis, lo and behold you have
> yourself a theory. The Bread Faerie explanation of how bread rises
> certainly qualifies as a scientific theory. It fits the observations
> and has certainly been around for genereations and generations. Long
> enough for any obvious error to be discovered.
>
> You may or may not know that Old Celtic was a language closely related
> to Italic which was the precursor to Latin. In any event, flanging
> about words in some Johnny come lately language does not make the
> proposition any more scientific than the mythological truth. Let's take
> a look at what we are offered as "science"

Wi'n gwbod, Charles. Wi'n siarad iaith Celteg. D' dwi ddim 'n siarad 'n
dda iawn, ond typyn bach, digon.

> Cow pie in Latin is still crap.

Mae'r pastai buwch yn Lladin yn cachu eto, o yn Cwmraeg. : -)

Sorry Charles I'm not taking the p... I'm the first one to be defending
'just because you can't see it it doesn't mean it's not real'. I'm
always suspending my disbelief for lack of evidence. I've seen things
that I still can't believe. So until it's proved otherwise I'll accept
it as possible. : -) Even though my Irish Nan never spoke of the we
folk nor my Breton Nan either. But that doesn't mean they didn't see
them. : -)

TG

TG wrote:

>
> ...Sorry Charles I'm not taking the p...
>

Good. It was not meant to be personal or directed to you - just a
pebble into the pond. It was an unedited spew of a rant and I probably
should have softened the tone a bit.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote:
> TG wrote:
>
> >
> > ...Sorry Charles I'm not taking the p...
> >
>
> Good. It was not meant to be personal or directed to you - just a
> pebble into the pond. It was an unedited spew of a rant and I probably
> should have softened the tone a bit.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

No problem, I quite liked reading it : -)

TG

> Will writes:
>
> I wasn't specific enough. When I speak of rye or wheat I mean grain,
> not flour. I didn't say that. My bad.
>
> I don't use flour for starters. I used to, and in those days realized
> that freshly ground worked better than the milled/packaged. Now I just
> soak grain and mash it. Mostly I soak it and wet mill it. For whatever
> the reasons... that gives a more nuanced starter. Perhaps the
> population of critters is more diverse or maybe it has something to do
> with enzyme activation as the grain gets ready to sprout. I can see
> where mechanically refining flour might cause a few critter varieties
> to drop out. It certainly precludes germination activity.

> Will

Will, You inspired me. I went to a farmers market today and made it my
mission to get some wheat and rye berries. Unfortunately they'd run our
of rye but I did manage to get my hands on some kamut. The woman
running the stall made me laugh. She was German and her stress was a
little off. I told her that I'd been recommended to get rye and wheat
berries. She said, "So you got Kamut" lol. I laughed and she got
embarrassed, she had understand my train of thought but just expressed
it badly : -)

So what would you advise me to do with it?

Thanks Will

TG

TG wrote:

> I went to a farmers market today and made it my
> mission to get some wheat and rye berries. Unfortunately they'd run our
> of rye but I did manage to get my hands on some kamut...
>
> So what would you advise me to do with it?

There are several grains I haven't made starters with. Kamut is one of
them. I have sprouted it for bread, milled it for bread flour, crack it
weekly for hot cereal, but starter? Not yet <g>. That said, I have no
reason to think it would not work. It may be easier to mash too since
it's not as hard as most wheats.

I would soak it for about 24 hours then test a grain or two, see if
they mash without using a hammer. Once they are soft enough, drain the
water, mash, form into a dough ball and cover. I'd let it sit as a
covered golf ball sized chunk in a cool place for two days. At the end
of day 2, peel the skin off of the doughball and mix the interior
remainder with more mash. I usually see activity in two or three
refreshments.

Keep your eye on the grain while it's soaking. If it is fresh grain, do
not be surprised to see the germ end bud. If that happens, mash before
the sprout emerges. Using a malted grain for starter purposes is
tricky.

For fun, I will try some here and see how I do with it.

Will

Keep your eye out for some rye though. That's the slam dunker in my
book.

TG wrote:
[...]y : -)
>
> So what would you advise me to do with it?

Stop playing with starters and make bread!

Kamut is great!

S.

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Kamut is great!

Might even make a great starter <g>...

With a little marketing polish it might compete with SD International's
Tasmanian Devil or that special little number that comes from the New
Zealand volcano in Rotorua.

Speaking of starters, Samartha. I made a variation of your full bore
pumpernickle a couple of weeks ago. 30% whole grain, 30% chops, 40%
meal (give or take). I let the bucket soak for 5 days. It fermented
happily away on it's own by day 4 without adding a starter. I sampled
it everyday after baking. Day 4 was the best.

Will

Samartha Deva wrote:

> TG wrote:
> [...]y : -)
>>
>> So what would you advise me to do with it?
>
> Stop playing with starters and make bread!
>
> Kamut is great!

You don't think she said "kaput?"

B/