Can left-over "Old Dough"--you know, that fake sourdough starter made with
commercial yeast about a day before it is needed--be saved, fed, and
perpetuated in much the same way as real sourdough starter? For example, I
made some "Old Dough" the other day and I have some left from yesterday. I
thought I'd just save it and feed it a little flour and water, etc. One
problem I see is that it already has some salt in it which inhibits yeast
production. But eventually the salt would disappear or be dilluted out of
the mix. Hmmmmm. . . Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Rich Hollenbeck

NewCulStudent wrote:
> Can left-over "Old Dough"--you know, that fake sourdough starter made with
> commercial yeast about a day before it is needed--be saved, fed, and
> perpetuated in much the same way as real sourdough starter? For example, I
> made some "Old Dough" the other day and I have some left from yesterday. I
> thought I'd just save it and feed it a little flour and water, etc. One
> problem I see is that it already has some salt in it which inhibits yeast
> production. But eventually the salt would disappear or be dilluted out of
> the mix. Hmmmmm. . . Any thoughts?

If you think about it, normal dough you use for this, it's growing just
fine with the 2 % salt - fermentation happens after you mix the dough
and it rises before baking.

Looks you will be ok, when you just go on feeding.

I once snatched some dough in a baking class where the instructor could
not give the students some starter from his employer donated starter for
legal reasons.... It grew just fine.

Samartha

NewCulStudent wrote:
> Can left-over "Old Dough"--you know, that fake sourdough starter made with
> commercial yeast about a day before it is needed--be saved, fed, and
> perpetuated in much the same way as real sourdough starter?...it already has some salt in it
>

You certainly could do it if it was real sourdough-dough , the salt is
not the problem. Commercial yeast starters (non-sourdough) do not take
well to continuous propagation, I have tried that and what happens is
that you only get one to three additional generations before the
commercial yeast dies, or goes "off", that is it tends to develop funny
smells and taste.

There is a theoretical possibility that the starter could be taken over
by real sourdough critters because they are happy with continuous
propagation. Not likely though.

Why don't you try it and report back, You have nothing to lose except
your time and a little flour.

Regards,

Charles

I already tried it and am waiting for the results. It is nice and stinky
already! I will check back after a few generations of this lump. Since I'm
using most of what I discard with other loaves, I suspect that most of the
commercial yeast will be gone soon anyway, as will the salt. Wish me luck.

By the way, I thought I sent this about three hours ago but I apparently
didn't send it so I'll send it now. That dough was reduced to 122 grams
when I added the rest of it to a French Country Loaf (Pain de Campagne) from
my On Baking textbook from school. It is a yeast bread with an optional
Straight Dough /"Old Dough" method. I refreshed the remaining 122 grams in
equal portions flour and water (slightly more water for my desired
consistancy). The flour was about 60% dark rye flour and about 40% bread
flour. The darned thing has more than doubled since then and has a massive
network of bubbles throughout. Next time I refresh this dough I think I'll
use the "throw-away stuff" in another yeast bread until the commercial yeast
is completely gone. Again, as I said, I'll report back as per your
recommendation. Hey, the loaves look great. They're still hot so I don't
know how they taste yet. But this strange concoction, half "old dough" and
half premature leftover sourdough starter seems to be working so far.

Now, should I put this back in the refrigerator or leave it out as long as
I'm working with it?

Rich

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
k.net...
> NewCulStudent wrote:
>> Can left-over "Old Dough"--you know, that fake sourdough starter made
>> with commercial yeast about a day before it is needed--be saved, fed, and
>> perpetuated in much the same way as real sourdough starter?...it already
>> has some salt in it
>
> You certainly could do it if it was real sourdough-dough , the salt is not
> the problem. Commercial yeast starters (non-sourdough) do not take well
> to continuous propagation, I have tried that and what happens is that you
> only get one to three additional generations before the commercial yeast
> dies, or goes "off", that is it tends to develop funny smells and taste.
>
> There is a theoretical possibility that the starter could be taken over by
> real sourdough critters because they are happy with continuous
> propagation. Not likely though.
>
> Why don't you try it and report back, You have nothing to lose except
> your time and a little flour.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

NewCulStudent wrote:
>...But this strange concoction, half "old dough" and
> half premature leftover sourdough starter seems to be working so far.

I am not sure from what you have written where the leftover sourdough
entered the picture, but if you mix a commercial yeast starter and a
sourdough starter and continuously propagate the result, almost
certainly the sourdough will take over the mix.

>
> Now, should I put this back in the refrigerator or leave it out as long as
> I'm working with it?

I am not sure how you can work with it if it resides in the refer. If
you leave it out, you will have to refresh it as needed. It is not
clear what it is that you are trying to do. Are you making a starter (
used for the main leaven), or trying to keep a supply of renewed "old
dough"?

The terminology was invented by authors in a deliberate attempt to
confuse newcommers to baking. Or, mabe by an old guild to confuse non
guilded. If you hold back a portion of dough to add to the mix when
doing the final mixing, you are using the held back dough as a dough
conditioner. That works (maybe) with either yeasted dough or
sourdough-dough as the held back componet.

If you hold back some dough to grow into a new batch of dough and it
serves as the main leaven for the dough you are building, you have held
back a "chef" or starter. This method only works if the held back dough
is a sourdough -dough. Well, maybe you can get one cycle from
commercial yeast. Some authors refer to this as " the old dough
method", not to be confused with old dough held back as a dough
conditioner, which is also referred to as " the old dough method".

Oh, and then you have to define "starter". Here on rfs, we assume that
starter means sourdough starter - a culture of LB Bacteria and "wild"
yeast. Other places Starter can mean the first or some stage before the
final dough mix that has some fermentation from either sourdough culture
or commercial yeast.

Worse, there is no agreement on the terminology that I have just used
and I may change my usage in the next post if it seems to fit the then
current topic.

Good luck

Charles

NewCulStudent wrote:
[...]
> Now, should I put this back in the refrigerator or leave it out as long as
> I'm working with it?

Probably a silly statement:

If you keep growing it, leave it out. If you won't need it for a while,
put it in the fridge. Treat it like a starter. It's not yet oversour, so
there is probably no need to give it some boost before you put it to
sleep.

Once you have it going and outside, you'll have to keep feeding it or it
gets oversour. But, since this is, as you say, a "not yet quite"
starter, it may be a good idea to exercise it a couple of time through
the whole cycle i. e. until it stops growing and collapses. The
"collapsing" depends also on your hydration - too dry won't show so good.

Not sure, if you want to make anything out of it, like a starter or just
use it up as "extra". You may get a starter with a different quality out
of it if you keep growing. Do you need another?

Samartha

Charles,

Thank you for your reply.

I see how my message was confusing. I'm talking about two different lumps
of dough. The first batch is about 96 hours old made of rye flour and
spring water. I've refreshed and fed it four times now. After the first 24
hours I pulled off most of it and added more water and rye. I think they
refer to that as feeding and refreshing the culture. I did that again after
the first 48 hours and after the first 60 hours. I'm about to do it again.
Every time I refresh this first spit wad I have left over "scraps." I try
to use those scraps somehow rather than throw them away.

The second lump is "old dough" (Pte Fermentée) made with commercial yeast.
When I made some baguettes with the second "old dough", I added the scraps
from the first lump to avoid throwing them away. The first batch of
sourdough starter is still totally immature and can't yet be called a
sourdough starter, but I trust it will become that in time. But I'd rather
use it in something than throw it away. I hope this makes more sense now in
light of what I wrote originally.

I used that second lump, but not all of it, to make baguettes. Now I have
Pte Fermentée (old dough) mixed with immature sourdough starter that I'm
playing with to try to make back into a true sourdough out of that too, and
I still have my original batch that is still pure water and rye. The second
batch has some wheat bread flour in it too.

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
k.net...
> NewCulStudent wrote:
>>...But this strange concoction, half "old dough" and half premature
>>leftover sourdough starter seems to be working so far.
>
> I am not sure from what you have written where the leftover sourdough
> entered the picture, but if you mix a commercial yeast starter and a
> sourdough starter and continuously propagate the result, almost certainly
> the sourdough will take over the mix.
>
>>
>> Now, should I put this back in the refrigerator or leave it out as long
>> as I'm working with it?
>
> I am not sure how you can work with it if it resides in the refer. If you
> leave it out, you will have to refresh it as needed. It is not clear what
> it is that you are trying to do. Are you making a starter ( used for the
> main leaven), or trying to keep a supply of renewed "old dough"?
>
> The terminology was invented by authors in a deliberate attempt to confuse
> newcommers to baking. Or, mabe by an old guild to confuse non guilded.
> If you hold back a portion of dough to add to the mix when doing the final
> mixing, you are using the held back dough as a dough conditioner. That
> works (maybe) with either yeasted dough or sourdough-dough as the held
> back componet.
>
> If you hold back some dough to grow into a new batch of dough and it
> serves as the main leaven for the dough you are building, you have held
> back a "chef" or starter. This method only works if the held back dough
> is a sourdough -dough. Well, maybe you can get one cycle from commercial
> yeast. Some authors refer to this as " the old dough method", not to be
> confused with old dough held back as a dough conditioner, which is also
> referred to as " the old dough method".
>
> Oh, and then you have to define "starter". Here on rfs, we assume that
> starter means sourdough starter - a culture of LB Bacteria and "wild"
> yeast. Other places Starter can mean the first or some stage before the
> final dough mix that has some fermentation from either sourdough culture
> or commercial yeast.
>
> Worse, there is no agreement on the terminology that I have just used and
> I may change my usage in the next post if it seems to fit the then current
> topic.
>
> Good luck
>
> Charles
>
>
>

Hi Rich-

> Can left-over "Old Dough"--you know, that fake sourdough starter made with
> commercial yeast about a day before it is needed--be saved, fed, and
> perpetuated in much the same way as real sourdough starter?

How about just calling it a perfectly good preferment, part of a long
tradition of improving bread. Poolish, biga, scrap dough, levain,
whatever.... it all improves any bread. (The prior addition of salt
does have an influence... but I'm not going there...)

I get this rec.food group in digest once a day so I see you've already
had loads of responses. I will however take the opportunity for a
gratuitous referral <G> to a wonderful video clip, if you have high
speed access, of the charming Steve Sullivan of the fabulous Acme
Breads showing using a walnut size piece of old dough to build several
breads on "Baking with Julia".

I enjoy all the bread bakers on this program and I think I only just
suggested it to someone the other day here when we got off onto a
focaccia topic. I don't do much of anything like the bread baker on the
series but they're great bakers and I've learned plenty from listening
to and watching them.
http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/video.html Pick "Steve Sullivan" in the
Chef drop down menu.

Enjoy-
Marylouise

Samartha,

I don't need another good starter--just one good one. But I also need a
practice starter to play with so I can get some experience.

I think you just helped me a lot! Let's see if I got this right: I'll keep
feeding it at about 12 hour intervals until it quits growing and collapses?
Then it's time to give it a boost?

Now that I have about 96 hours of actual hands-on experience, I think I
should go back and re-read EVERYTHING I have read up to this point. It
should all make a lot more sense the second time around.

Thank you.

Rich Hollenbeck

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1131948257.24234.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> NewCulStudent wrote:
> [...]
> If you keep growing it, leave it out. If you won't need it for a while,
> put it in the fridge. Treat it like a starter. It's not yet oversour, so
> there is probably no need to give it some boost before you put it to
> sleep.
>
> Once you have it going and outside, you'll have to keep feeding it or it
> gets oversour. But, since this is, as you say, a "not yet quite" starter,
> it may be a good idea to exercise it a couple of time through the whole
> cycle i. e. until it stops growing and collapses. The "collapsing" depends
> also on your hydration - too dry won't show so good.
>
> Not sure, if you want to make anything out of it, like a starter or just
> use it up as "extra". You may get a starter with a different quality out
> of it if you keep growing. Do you need another?
>
> Samartha

Hi Rich, you wrote:
> Samartha,
>
> I don't need another good starter--just one good one. But I also need a
> practice starter to play with so I can get some experience.
>
> I think you just helped me a lot! Let's see if I got this right: I'll keep
> feeding it at about 12 hour intervals until it quits growing and collapses?
> Then it's time to give it a boost?

You give it a boost every time you feed. The point with the "collapsing"
is that it establishes itself. Initially, there are all kinds of
critters growing and they make gas and rise. So, to make those peter out
and do it twice gives some chance that the new starter establishes
itself (I read this somewhere but it makes sense).

Since the growth rate is geometric (doubling every interval) and if you
feed a constant amount, the growth rate will overtake the feeding rate
and peter out at one point. A lot of critters will die off, others, more
accustomed to the new environment will continue with the new feeding,
peak out and then, a stable population of sourdough organisms will start
establishing itself.

Sometimes, the souring seems to go very fast and then one gets a
non-moving starter. That's a tricky one to recognize and deal with.

That's the initial process when growing a new starter. Maintaining is a
different story, you'll have to feed geometric (doubling/tripling) to
maintain the culture.

> Now that I have about 96 hours of actual hands-on experience, I think I
> should go back and re-read EVERYTHING I have read up to this point. It
> should all make a lot more sense the second time around.

I like your approach, getting hands on experience first - very sensible.
Not sure about the "EVERYTHING", though. I think taking notes of timings
and temperatures can help a lot.

My pleasure,

Samartha

NewCulStudent wrote:

> Charles,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> I see how my message was confusing.

Perhaps less words, used more precisely would help.... instead of
describing in great detail what you've done, why not just use one or two
simple sentences saying what it is you wish to do?

B/

Got it. Good feedback. Thanks.

Rich


"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> NewCulStudent wrote:
>
>> Charles,
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>>
>> I see how my message was confusing.
>
> Perhaps less words, used more precisely would help.... instead of
> describing in great detail what you've done, why not just use one or two
> simple sentences saying what it is you wish to do?
>
> B/