OK don't go wild with telling me to just Google it -- I'm not sure
what "it" is called. A local Greek food stall, Opa! Souvlaki, in one
of the malls prepares a "pita bread" souvlaki that they use with some
of their meals. They use it to wrap their food in. It is shaped like
a pancake/pita bread and is about 1 cm thick (what is that 1/3 of an
inch). It is damn good. Can anyone give me a recipe or a least give
me a hand.
--
Never trust a skinny cook.

Railman wrote:

> OK don't go wild with telling me to just Google it

No, I'll do it calmly.

Around here, it *is* pita, just wrapped around the filling and stuffed.

You might want to ask this place the name of the bread if it's any
different and then <muffled sounds> it....

B/

"Railman" > wrote in message
news:2005081314524716807%railman@sasktelnet...
> OK don't go wild with telling me to just Google it -- I'm not sure
> what "it" is called. A local Greek food stall, Opa! Souvlaki, in one
> of the malls prepares a "pita bread" souvlaki that they use with some
> of their meals. They use it to wrap their food in. It is shaped like
> a pancake/pita bread and is about 1 cm thick (what is that 1/3 of an
> inch). It is damn good. Can anyone give me a recipe or a least give
> me a hand.

It's probably "Souvlaki Pita," which is Greek Pita made especially for
Souvlaki. The only difference between that and other pita is that it has no
pocket. Then, the pita is lightly buttered and slightly browned in a frying
pan or on a grill.

On 2005-08-16, The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN > wrote:
>
> It's probably "Souvlaki Pita," which is Greek Pita made especially for
> Souvlaki. The only difference between that and other pita is that it has no
> pocket. Then, the pita is lightly buttered and slightly browned in a frying
> pan or on a grill.

And how does one bake pita without a pocket? This is a question
that's been bugging me for a while, as every recipe for pita I've
found is for pocket pita. To avoid the pocket formation, do you roll
the dough thicker, or make it drier, bake at a lower temperature, or
what? (Sure, I could try all these things myself in various
combinations, but what a PITA, if you'll pardon the acronym-pun.)

--
Randall

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:23:21 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>On 2005-08-16, The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN > wrote:
>>
>> It's probably "Souvlaki Pita," which is Greek Pita made especially for
>> Souvlaki. The only difference between that and other pita is that it has no
>> pocket. Then, the pita is lightly buttered and slightly browned in a frying
>> pan or on a grill.
>
>And how does one bake pita without a pocket? This is a question
>that's been bugging me for a while, as every recipe for pita I've
>found is for pocket pita. To avoid the pocket formation, do you roll
>the dough thicker, or make it drier, bake at a lower temperature, or
>what? (Sure, I could try all these things myself in various
>combinations, but what a PITA, if you'll pardon the acronym-pun.)

Hi Randall,

I have not tried it (for this experimental purpose), but...

My strong suspicion would be that a lower initial
temperature would prevent the formation of the pocket.

I suggest that because a while back IIRC I kept increasing
the baking surface temperature in order to get a good
pocket.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 2005-08-19, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:23:21 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:
[...]
>>And how does one bake pita without a pocket? This is a question
>>that's been bugging me for a while, as every recipe for pita I've
>>found is for pocket pita. To avoid the pocket formation, do you roll
>>the dough thicker, or make it drier, bake at a lower temperature, or
>>what? (Sure, I could try all these things myself in various
>>combinations, but what a PITA, if you'll pardon the acronym-pun.)
>
> Hi Randall,
>
> I have not tried it (for this experimental purpose), but...
>
> My strong suspicion would be that a lower initial
> temperature would prevent the formation of the pocket.
>
> I suggest that because a while back IIRC I kept increasing
> the baking surface temperature in order to get a good
> pocket.

That makes sense. I wonder also if baking the pita on a baking sheet
might make more sense than directly on a stone, as is traditional. If
it's the burst of high heat that creates the pocket, then adding a
little insulation should help to prevent it. Plus, the pocketless
pita I've had is usually quite soft and flexible, so crispness isn't
really the goal.

Perhaps this weekend I'll test the lower temperature idea, both
directly on the stone and on sheet pans. I usually bake pita at
450F-475F, so perhaps 375F would be a good starting point.

--
Randall

> I wonder also if baking the pita on a baking sheet
>might make more sense than directly on a stone, as is traditional. If
>it's the burst of high heat that creates the pocket, then adding a
>little insulation should help to prevent it. Plus, the pocketless
>pita I've had is usually quite soft and flexible, so crispness isn't
>really the goal.

Perhaps this weekend I'll test the lower temperature idea, both
directly on the stone and on sheet pans. I usually bake pita at
450F-475F, so perhaps 375F would be a good starting point.


Basing from industrial pita bread experience;
Baking pita directly on the oven floor or baking stone is the best way
to do it; unless your baking sheet is very hot .
A baking sheet that was heated in the oven with the stone and then
placing the sheeted dough on top would be the option if you insist of
using it instead of oven floor baking but in my experience,
statistically the success of pocket formation is much better with the
baking stone than with a baking sheet.
.. A baking sheet tends to dissipate the heat, reflect most of it than
transfer it to the dough and it takes time for it to equilibrate to
make an efficient heat transfer from the oven flour to the baking sheet
which by he time the dough is already hardened and lost its flexibility
and elasticity to expand. A solid bottom heat is a critical requirement
in such bread which is unlikely to be obtained with baking sheet
baking.
The secret of pita bread pocket formation is instantaneous heat
transfer so that the dough moisture is quickly converted into steam
which is the responsible for the pocket formation. A pita bread that
is lean( minimal to none of fat and sugar added ) is more prone to
produce a pocket than an enriched dough which tends to inhibit the
water to vaporize due to the formation of emulsion as well as sugar
binding of the bound water.
A pocketless bread with soft texture is better be done with such
enriched dough and rolling it thicker than the pocketed version and
baking it a slightly lower temperature for slightly a longer time..
Mathematically speaking;
The baking time is directly proportional to the dough thickness and
inversely proportional to the baking temperature..
Pocket formation is directly proportional to the baking temperature
The expansion of the dough to form a pocket is inversely proportional
to the dough thickness; and the dough expansion rate is directly
proportional to the baking temperature.
Roy

--

On 19 Aug 2005 13:51:24 -0700, "Roy" >
wrote:

>statistically the success of pocket formation is much better with the
>baking stone than with a baking sheet.

Hi Roy,

The thread was about baking pita with no pocket...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

>On 19 Aug 2005 13:51:24 -0700, "Roy" >
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>statistically the success of pocket formation is much better with the
>>baking stone than with a baking sheet.
>>
>>
>
>
>The thread was about baking pita with no pocket...
>
>
So, reverse his advice...

Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvaldis claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
home baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM mavery81230
wordsmith Yahoo mavery81230

On 2005-08-19, Roy > wrote:
> Basing from industrial pita bread experience;
> Baking pita directly on the oven floor or baking stone is the best way
> to do it; unless your baking sheet is very hot .
> A baking sheet that was heated in the oven with the stone and then
> placing the sheeted dough on top would be the option if you insist of
> using it instead of oven floor baking but in my experience,
> statistically the success of pocket formation is much better with the
> baking stone than with a baking sheet.
[...]

As Kenneth mentioned, I am specifically trying not to form a pocket,
but your information is nevertheless useful as a confirmation that
lower heat and baking on a sheet pan is more likely to prevent the
pocket from forming.

> A pita bread that
> is lean( minimal to none of fat and sugar added ) is more prone to
> produce a pocket than an enriched dough which tends to inhibit the
> water to vaporize due to the formation of emulsion as well as sugar
> binding of the bound water.
> A pocketless bread with soft texture is better be done with such
> enriched dough and rolling it thicker than the pocketed version and
> baking it a slightly lower temperature for slightly a longer time..
[...]

This makes a lot of sense, and coincidentally, I just read (after
making my original post) the recipe for pocket pita in the Laurel's
Kitchen Bread Book (which is the best book on 100% whole-grain bread
baking that I've read, and a good book on bread baking in general),
and she confirms exactly these points: thicker rounds, lower
temperatures, and enriched dough all discourage pocket formation. She
does not present a recipe for no-pocket pita, however. Seems
everybody assumes you want the pocket.

I think I have plenty of ideas for experimentation now. My primary
concern with the lower temperature and longer bake time is that the
bread will dry out, but we'll see. I'll report my results back to the
group, of course.

--
Randall

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On 19 Aug 2005 13:51:24 -0700, "Roy" >
> wrote:
>
>>statistically the success of pocket formation is much better with the
>>baking stone than with a baking sheet.
>
> Hi Roy,
>
> The thread was about baking pita with no pocket...

In grocery-store nomenclature, "pita" has a pocket, "flatbread" doesn't.

>>The thread was about baking pita with no pocket...
>In grocery-store nomenclature, "pita" has a pocket, "flatbread" doesn't

I agree...
A pita bread is called a pita bread if it has a pocket.... A pita bread
is defined in the Encylopedia Britannica Standard Edition 2005 as
" Pita bread is a very thin disk of yeast-leavened dough that has
been prepared so as to cause separation of the top and bottom surfaces
of the baked product except at the circumference."
Therefore a bread that does not have a pocket does not qualify for that
name;
Pita bread is classified by the Jalal Qarooni a world renown authority
of of flat breads and the author of the comprehensive book titled '
Bread Technology' as double layered bread along with the Lebanese
mafrood and shamii . Saudi Arabian khubz and shamsi and Egyptian
baladi in contrast to the single layered flat bread like the Afghan
tamees , ,Iranian lavash,...Indian chappatti

On 2005-08-20, Roy > wrote:
>>>The thread was about baking pita with no pocket...
>>In grocery-store nomenclature, "pita" has a pocket, "flatbread" doesn't
>
> I agree...
> A pita bread is called a pita bread if it has a pocket.... A pita bread
> is defined in the Encylopedia Britannica Standard Edition 2005 as
> " Pita bread is a very thin disk of yeast-leavened dough that has
> been prepared so as to cause separation of the top and bottom surfaces
> of the baked product except at the circumference."
> Therefore a bread that does not have a pocket does not qualify for that
> name;
> Pita bread is classified by the Jalal Qarooni a world renown authority
> of of flat breads and the author of the comprehensive book titled '
> Bread Technology' as double layered bread along with the Lebanese
> mafrood and shamii . Saudi Arabian khubz and shamsi and Egyptian
> baladi in contrast to the single layered flat bread like the Afghan
> tamees , ,Iranian lavash,...Indian chappatti

That's all excellent and interesting information. However, I have
often been served a thing called "pita" in this country (USA) which
does not have a pocket, most commonly served wrapped around a meat
filling (i.e., souvlaki), and this is exactly where this sub-thread
began. It's unfortunate that terminology briefly led us astray, but
it's nobody's fault. Whether or not pocketless flatbread is called
"pita" is really a question of prescriptive vs. descriptive
linguistics, and should probably be discussed on a different
newsgroup.

Does Jalal Qarooni give the proper term for the soft, flexible,
single-layer bread used in Greece (and in mall food courts across the
USA) to wrap souvlaki? Excellent pictures and descriptions of what
I'm talking about are he http://www.athensguide.com/souvlaki.html
(That site simply calls the bread "pita".)

My sponge is fermenting as we speak. Tomorrow, I will attempt to bake
what I will call, for lack of a better term, "souvlaki flatbread".
(Though mine will be whole wheat, so it won't look quite like those
pictures.)

--
Randall

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:05:51 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>Does Jalal Qarooni give the proper term for the soft, flexible,
>single-layer bread used in Greece (and in mall food courts across the
>USA) to wrap souvlaki?

Hmmm, I think we should agree to call it a "Nortman" <BG>...

You are bringing back a great memory though. About 35 years
ago I spent some time on Crete and each day would get a
souvlaki for lunch. The cost was one drach, which, at the
time, was about 13 cents U.S.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
k.net...
> On 2005-08-20, Roy > wrote:
....
> That's all excellent and interesting information. However, I have
> often been served a thing called "pita" in this country (USA) which
> does not have a pocket, most commonly served wrapped around a meat
> filling (i.e., souvlaki), and this is exactly where this sub-thread
There's really little difference, other than the baking temperature. I use
this recipe:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br.../Flatbread.htm

....
> My sponge is fermenting as we speak. Tomorrow, I will attempt to bake
> what I will call, for lack of a better term, "souvlaki flatbread".
> (Though mine will be whole wheat, so it won't look quite like those
> pictures.)
Please let us know how you made out. Me? Your descriptions brought back
such an array of memorable moments from when I was visiting there many years
back, that I've begun looking for the filling and sauces used...(:-o)!

Have fun, Randall!


Dusty

>
> --
> Randall

>Pita bread is classified by the Jalal Qarooni a world renown authority
> of flat breads and the author of the comprehensive book titled '
> Bread Technology'

Oops there is a correction here...
The books actual title is Flat Bread Technology( and the author has a
PhD) and it deals with all kinds of flat bread made worldwide. That is
the first standard reference book of the flat bread bakery
technologist. Now it's accompanied by another book titled Arabic
Bread production( which is more specific to the pocketed bread) .It
written by another bread scientist Kenneth Quail which defines pita as
pocketed bread as well.
BTW, Arabic bread is synonymous with the Greek definition of pita
bread.

>Does Jalal Qarooni give the proper term for the soft, flexible,
>single-layer bread used in Greece (and in mall food courts across the
>USA) to wrap souvlaki? Excellent pictures and descriptions of what
I>'m talking about are he http://www.athensguide.com/souvlaki.html
>(That site simply calls the bread "pita".)

'What is being shown in he pictures is considered as a rolled form of
focaccia.
If that is what you are looking for you can make things simple ( an
forget about pita)by just making a focaccia bread recipe and reducing
the fat, liquid and the thickness to ensure that when rolled it will
not break.
A form of Turkish bread is also served that way (as well )and its more
related to the focaccia and pizza which is incidentally classified by
Qarooni as a single layered flat bread).
Souvlaki in other countries and even in other parts of Greece is made
with the pocketed pita bread and it does not mean to be specific for a
particular bread.single or double layered bread.
In fact from some interesting ( modern) Greek translation, a pita is
not necessarily considered a bread but is also considered a cake or
even pie( such as for example spanakopita) which further create some
confusion in terminology.
But I am sure that from the point of the accepted bakery terminology
a pita is defined as a pocketed yeast leavened bread and belongs to
that category alone.
Roy

>From the last couple of times I have tried to make pita WITH a pocket
and had some not come out, here are some things I noticed that may help
you do the opposite and get NO pocket.

I noticed the thinner I rolled them out the better my pocket was. As I
got them to about 1/4 " thick I had 100 % of them form pockets. So if
you were more towards the 3/8" or 1/2" inch thickness you may have less
pocket formation.

When I let my dough rest for longer before I put in the oven I seemed
to get better pocket formation. So if you roll them out, then bake
immediately it may help the no pocket pita form.

One thing you could do which would cause no pocket to form for sure is
to run one of those spikey rollers over the dough (not sure what they
are called) which pokes small holes in the dough. We used to use these
at a pizza place to keep from having bubbles form in the crust.

Hope this helps,
Anton

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> On 2005-08-16, The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN >
wrote:
> >
> > It's probably "Souvlaki Pita," which is Greek Pita made especially for
> > Souvlaki. The only difference between that and other pita is that it
has no
> > pocket. Then, the pita is lightly buttered and slightly browned in a
frying
> > pan or on a grill.
>
> And how does one bake pita without a pocket? This is a question
> that's been bugging me for a while, as every recipe for pita I've
> found is for pocket pita. To avoid the pocket formation, do you roll
> the dough thicker, or make it drier, bake at a lower temperature, or
> what? (Sure, I could try all these things myself in various
> combinations, but what a PITA, if you'll pardon the acronym-pun.)

As other people said, cook it at a lower temperature. Or, cook it in a
frying pan or a tortilla pan, with the temperature low but high enough to
brown it (if you cook it too low, the sides will crisp, but the insides will
not cook well, and they won't brown). If you cook it in a frying pan or
tortilla pan, air bubbles appear, but they quickly disappear. I've done
both, with equally good results.

Well, my first experiment with baking no-pocket pita was pretty
unsuccessful, but not entirely worthless. To review, I was shooting
for the soft, flexible, slightly spongy flatbread used to wrap
souvlaki, which has no pocket.

Perhaps my first mistake, as much as I hate to admit it, was using
100% whole-wheat flour. While I love whole-grain breads, I think that
in this case, the bran just gets in the way of the soft, flexible
texture I'm shooting for. I managed to get some good outcomes, but
none were quite flexible enough. I wonder if souvlaki shops might
actually steam their bread slightly just before using them to make
them more flexible, the way burrito shops steam their tortillas.

Overall, I discoveered that while it's easy to prevent pitas from
forming good, complete pockets, it's quite hard to prevent them from
forming bad pockets. Here are the things I tried:

Enriching the dough with 6% oil and 6% sweeteners (a mixture of honey
and barley malt syrup) didn't seem to help much, and I was still able
to get good, complete pockets out of this dough when I baked it at
high enough temperatures.

Lower temperatures (350-400F) are very effective at preventing good
pocket formation, but you still get pretty significant bubbles
(covering 50% of the bread or more) easily. Baking on a baking sheet
instead of the stone resulted in poor browning and bland flavor.
Allowing the dough to cook long enough to properly brown the crust
made it dry and too brittle to be used for souvlaki. Baking on a
not-too-hot stone seems to be the way to go. (Parchment on the stone
is OK.) Putting the stone near the top of the oven produces good
browning on both top and bottom crust without drying out the interior.

By far the best way to prevent bubble/pocket formation is to roll the
dough out thicker. At 1/4", you're going to get pockets no matter
what you do. At 1/2", you might get some bubbles, but overall it will
be a "one-layer" flatbread. In fact, it seems best not to roll the
dough at all, but to press and stretch it by hand. The same tricks
applied to pizza and foccacia to prevent bubbles work he dimple the
dough and perforate it with a fork (or a dough docker, if you're the
gadget-hoarding sort).

I think that with the combination of 3/8"-1/2" thickness and baking at
about 375F, directly on a stone preheated to that temperature, plus
some tweaks to the dough recipe, I can probably get very close to what
I want. Using white flour, I think it would work very well indeed.

--
Randall

"The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Railman" > wrote in message
> news:2005081314524716807%railman@sasktelnet...
>> OK don't go wild with telling me to just Google it -- I'm not sure
>> what "it" is called. A local Greek food stall, Opa! Souvlaki, in one
>> of the malls prepares a "pita bread" souvlaki that they use with some
>> of their meals. They use it to wrap their food in. It is shaped like
>> a pancake/pita bread and is about 1 cm thick (what is that 1/3 of an
>> inch). It is damn good. Can anyone give me a recipe or a least give
>> me a hand.
>
> It's probably "Souvlaki Pita," which is Greek Pita made especially for
> Souvlaki. The only difference between that and other pita is that it has
> no
> pocket. Then, the pita is lightly buttered and slightly browned in a
> frying
> pan or on a grill.

But even if it does have a pocket it can still be wrapped round food!

Mary
>
>