I have plunged into the baking of sourdough breads under the guidance of
Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book.

While my outputs were eminently edible (and will doubtless get better as
my expertise increases), I have found the offered guidance less detailed
than that which relates to yeast doughs.

She advises, and I have confirmed, that the ripened starter keeps well
in a refrigerator and can be aroused from its sleep by sitting at room
temperature overnight.

However, when it comes to using the starter, there is a marked
difference between the routine described in the recipes available from
this newsgroup (recipes/part1) and her "German Sourdough Rye".

Briefly, the posted recipes keep back a little of the starter (to grow a
fresh lot) and use the bulk in the bread. The German Sourdough Rye uses
only 1/3 cup of starter, builds it up (to a "full sour") and then uses
that as a starting point for the bread.

From the point of view of the baked loaf, one is probably as good as the
other. But what about the remaining starter? Does it need more radical
refreshing than merely replacing what has been used?

Comments from seasoned sourdough bakers will be gratefully received.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On 22 Jan 2005 20:01:47 GMT, Felixk Karpfen
> wrote:

>Briefly, the posted recipes keep back a little of the starter (to grow a
>fresh lot) and use the bulk in the bread. The German Sourdough Rye uses
>only 1/3 cup of starter, builds it up (to a "full sour") and then uses
>that as a starting point for the bread.
>
>From the point of view of the baked loaf, one is probably as good as the
>other. But what about the remaining starter? Does it need more radical
>refreshing than merely replacing what has been used?
>
>Comments from seasoned sourdough bakers will be gratefully received.
>
>Felix Karpfen

Hi Felix,

Two reactions:

I do not agree that "one is as good at the other" in terms
of the finished bread. Though nothing terrible will happen
if we just use the starter "as is", generally, we get better
results (both in terms of texture and taste) by "building"
the starter in stages, adding the final ingredients to make
the finished dough, fermenting, forming, then baking.

Next: The "storage" starter (that is, the stuff we are
keeping aside until we bake again) does not need anything
more "radical." Just add some flour and water, let its
fermentation become active, and put it aside. If you expect
to use it in a relatively short time (say, a day or so) you
can just leave it at room temperature. If there is likely to
be a longer interval, refrigerate it.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

* Kenneth > [2005-01-22] :

> On 22 Jan 2005 20:01:47 GMT, Felixk Karpfen >
>wrote:
>
>
>>From the point of view of the baked loaf, one is _probably_ as good as
>>the other. But what about the remaining starter? Does it need more
>>radical refreshing than merely replacing what has been used?
>
snip
>
> I do not agree that "one is as good at the other" in terms of the
> finished bread.

Thank you for the prompt response.

The operative word in my account (as a Newbie sourdough baker) is
"probably". I only discovered the newsgroup's recipes very recently and
have not tried them.

And I note that they are quite dated (last modified 1997/09/11) and
possibly describe superseded techniques.

However, given that building up the sourdough (as described in Laurel's
Kitchen Bread Book) is viewed as the preferred route, this merely
re-enforces my problem - which perhaps was insufficiently clearly
described in my original post.

My question was (or should have been):

Is it sufficient for a healthy refrigerator-stored starter that the
small amount, that was actually used, is replaced? Or does the starter
become unusable (too sour?) unless a significant portion is discarded
and replaced by fresh "flour+water"?

And, taking a leaf from another bread-baking approach, if the
controlling factor is not the _total_ amount of acid present in the
dough, but the pH, is there any information on the use of "buffering" to
keep the pH fairly constant despite the accumulation of acid?

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On 24 Jan 2005 19:52:10 GMT, Felixk Karpfen
> wrote:

>Is it sufficient for a healthy refrigerator-stored starter that the
>small amount, that was actually used, is replaced? Or does the starter
>become unusable (too sour?) unless a significant portion is discarded
>and replaced by fresh "flour+water"?

Hi again Felix,

Your starter is alive, and thus, must be fed.

I would not know how to answer your question in any precise
way because too many variables are left out of your
description.

As you will understand, the proportion of new flour (food)
needed will depend on the duration of the intended storage,
and the temperature at which it is stored.

So, if, for example, you intend to store your refriger4ated
starter for three days, it is very likely that it will be
fine with just the addition of a very modest amount of
flour.

If, instead, you intended to store it for two months, it
would probably be best to add more flour in proportion.

In any case though, it would seem not to be a significant
matter provided you are storing a few teaspoons of starter.

Given that the "building" process has a number of benefits,
one needs to store only tiny amounts to be ready to bake.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:52:33 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

> On 24 Jan 2005 19:52:10 GMT, Felixk Karpfen
> > wrote:
>
>>Is it sufficient for a healthy refrigerator-stored starter that the
>>small amount, that was actually used, is replaced? Or does the starter
>>become unusable (too sour?) unless a significant portion is discarded
>>and replaced by fresh "flour+water"?
>
> Hi again Felix,
>
> Your starter is alive, and thus, must be fed.
>
> I would not know how to answer your question in any precise
> way because too many variables are left out of your
> description.

I had the courage to post my initial query because Manuel's Starter scored
an entry in the newsgroup's sourdough recipes. So, I assumed, the details
of its preparation and storage were well known.

> In any case though, it would seem not to be a significant
> matter provided you are storing a few teaspoons of starter.

This is the real crunch point.

Following the supplied recipe for Manuel's starter, I ended up with some 2
cups of starter. I use 1/3 cup, once a week and store the remained in a
glass jar 2 litre glass jar in the refrigerator. During the
active fermentation stage (before it goes back into the fridge), the
2 cups of starter needs every bit of the 2 litre room.

However, if only a small amount of starter needs to be stored, the
fermentation/storage problem becomes manageable even if 50% of the stored
starter should be replaced every week.

Thank you for the advice.


Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

At 12:52 PM 1/24/2005, Felix wrote:
>[...]
>The operative word in my account (as a Newbie sourdough baker) is
>"probably". I only discovered the newsgroup's recipes very recently and
>have not tried them.
>
>And I note that they are quite dated (last modified 1997/09/11) and
>possibly describe superseded techniques.

Apparently, some volunteer juice is needed to clean that up. On the other
side, it gives you a variety of perspectives to find your own way.

>However, given that building up the sourdough (as described in Laurel's
>Kitchen Bread Book) is viewed as the preferred route, this merely
>re-enforces my problem - which perhaps was insufficiently clearly
>described in my original post.

A precise multi-stage sourdough approach is preferable if you want
repeatable results with a potent (high germ count) starter but one can make
very good bread the "intuitive" way as many previous generations of bakers
have accomplished.

>My question was (or should have been):
>
>Is it sufficient for a healthy refrigerator-stored starter that the
>small amount, that was actually used, is replaced? Or does the starter
>become unusable (too sour?) unless a significant portion is discarded
>and replaced by fresh "flour+water"?

It is sufficient to keep back a small amount (20 g) and use it the next time.
As I wrote in the last response, there are physical limits to reducing it
to very small ( < 1 g) amounts unless you are equipped with lab equipment
and sterile environment.

In essence, the size does not matter. What matters are flour multiplication
factors (inoculation size), flour type, temperature, hydration and time.

I found it feasible to have 20 g cultures in the fridge for two month and
then refresh them again. A 3 month time period was getting into a
borderline territory where things did not "feel" right with more effort
necessary to nurse them up again. Temperature in the fridge is a few (2 -
3) degrees (C) over freezing. Full grain rye cultures were fine, white
flour cultures often needed several refreshments to get going again, with
oversouring, i. e. get the pH high enough apparently being the main issue.

Nowadays, I do mainly Detmold 3-Stage
http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-02.cgi with 4000 g 50/50 rye/wheat mix
batches and first stage starter weight is 6 g. From every batch, I keep 20
g in 1/2 cup containers in the fridge and use it for next time and the
bread coming out of it is excellent.


>And, taking a leaf from another bread-baking approach, if the
>controlling factor is not the _total_ amount of acid present in the
>dough, but the pH, is there any information on the use of "buffering" to
>keep the pH fairly constant despite the accumulation of acid?

How would you control specifically such factors and measure change? The pH
is the limiting factor because it prevents the organisms going about their
business of living from an pH/acid aspect. What about the other factors?
For example temperature - if this changes by a few degrees, you may have
much more impact than you have with buffering efforts. How would you tell
the difference of what is causing the change?

I loaned the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book from the library but found it
disappointing in aspects of sourdough and pumpernickel and don't have it
any more.

What type of bread do you have in mind and how would you influence
buffering with a given type of bread without using chemicals if that's an
issue at all at this point?

Hoping this answers some of your questions.

Samartha


===
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:00:07 -0700, Samartha wrote:

I hasten to send a preliminary reply - before fully absorbing the
information in the posting and the quoted references - in an attempt to
show my appreciation for the trouble to which you have gone.

> At 12:52 PM 1/24/2005, Felix wrote:

>>My question was (or should have been):
>>
>>Is it sufficient for a healthy refrigerator-stored starter that the
>>small amount, that was actually used, is replaced? Or does the starter
>>become unusable (too sour?) unless a significant portion is discarded
>>and replaced by fresh "flour+water"?
>
> It is sufficient to keep back a small amount (20 g) and use it the next
> time. As I wrote in the last response, there are physical limits to
> reducing it to very small ( < 1 g) amounts unless you are equipped with
> lab equipment and sterile environment.
>
> In essence, the size does not matter.

I believe that this is the answer to my simple question.

The heavily-dated routine made a relative large batch of starter, withdrew
1 cup for baking and replaced it with one cup of fresh flour+ one cup of
water. Further advice stated that such periodic (weekly?) refreshing is
needed to keep the starter healthy. This routine becomes problematic if
only 1/3 cup of starter is actually used each week.


> Full grain rye cultures were fine, white flour cultures often needed
> several refreshments to get going again, with oversouring, i. e. get the
> pH high enough apparently being the main issue.

Hence my supplementary question.
>
> Nowadays, I do mainly Detmold 3-Stage

I have studied this from your web-site and find it both impressive and
formidable.

The temperature control is far more precise and sophisticated than
anything that I aspire to or, for that matter, could readily find a home
for in our kitchen. Also, 2kg-loaves are a bit large for our current
family (2 geriatrics who are periodically visited by their [adult]
children.


>> is there any information on the use of "buffering" to keep the pH
>> fairly constant despite the accumulation of acid?
>
> How would you control specifically such factors and measure change?

Some details are spelled out in:

http://web.mountain.net/~petsonk/SRB...s/image035.gif

You may also care to visit the recent thread in "alt.bread.recipes"
entitled:

pH control - was Ingredients for salt rising bread

to which I contributes by 2-cents-worth.

> I loaned the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book from the library but found it
> disappointing in aspects of sourdough and pumpernickel and don't have it
> any more.

Even the info in the 2nd edition does not come close to that contained in
your web-site. But it is a _lot simpler_ to carry out and the bread - if
not outstanding - is very edible.
>
> What type of bread do you have in mind and how would you influence
> buffering with a given type of bread without using chemicals if that's
> an issue at all at this point?

Buffering needs two chemicals. One is (or can be) the acid(s) that make
sourdough sour. The second is (or can be) the sodium salt of the acid(s).
From the measurement quotes in the reference, the simple system ends up
with the pH held in the region of 4.0 - 4.5. Is this also optimal for the
microorganisms active in sourdoughs?

> Hoping this answers some of your questions.

Assuming that I have understood what I read, I believe my initial question
has been answered and my followup question stands a good chance of
getting an authoritative answer.

Thank you for the trouble that you have taken in answering my queries [and
I am was glad to find that I am not alone in sending postings that get
stuck in the system ;-)].

Felix
d--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:

> [...]
>
>>In essence, the size does not matter.
>>
>>
>
>I believe that this is the answer to my simple question.
>
>The heavily-dated routine made a relative large batch of starter, withdrew
>1 cup for baking and replaced it with one cup of fresh flour+ one cup of
>water. Further advice stated that such periodic (weekly?) refreshing is
>needed to keep the starter healthy. This routine becomes problematic if
>only 1/3 cup of starter is actually used each week.
>
>
>
It can work, but your initial inoculation (assuming that the larger
amount stays as it is) may be very inactive and would need long time to
get going again - either as starter or as dough.

There are those huge sourdough crock around - probably for a place in
the kitchen to show it off.

>
>
>>Full grain rye cultures were fine, white flour cultures often needed
>>several refreshments to get going again, with oversouring, i. e. get the
>>pH high enough apparently being the main issue.
>>
>>
>
>Hence my supplementary question.
>
>
>>Nowadays, I do mainly Detmold 3-Stage
>>
>>
>
>I have studied this from your web-site and find it both impressive and
>formidable.
>
>The temperature control is far more precise and sophisticated than
>anything that I aspire to or, for that matter, could readily find a home
>for in our kitchen. Also, 2kg-loaves are a bit large for our current
>family (2 geriatrics who are periodically visited by their [adult]
>children.
>
>
I did fine tinkering with various ways and made always good bread with it.

>
>
>>>is there any information on the use of "buffering" to keep the pH
>>>fairly constant despite the accumulation of acid?
>>>
>>>
>>How would you control specifically such factors and measure change?
>>
>>
>
>Some details are spelled out in:
>
>http://web.mountain.net/~petsonk/SRB...s/image035.gif
>
>You may also care to visit the recent thread in "alt.bread.recipes"
>entitled:
>
>pH control - was Ingredients for salt rising bread
>
>to which I contributes by 2-cents-worth.
>
>
>
Wow! "Given our current ambient temperatures (30 - 38°C),"
and the elusive salt rising bread as well....

Now, that's really interesting.

What comes to mind is that a Monica Spiller has a patent on sourdough
procedures and she was starting a sourdough from scratch at - when I
remember right - 36 C, initially to grow the right organisms, then going
on with more "normal" temperatures.

Continuous industrial sourdough fermenters apparently run also at higher
temperatures - 42 C and grow with different LB's - LB ponti. African
sorghum sourdough exists and injera - Aethopian fermented pancake-like
bread comes from higher temperatures as well.

Now, if I were in your position temperature-wise, I would take full
grain rye or wheat and grow it with a stable routine with small amounts
for a while - maybe a week or so, watching that it does not oversour,
mabe several refreshes per day, once it gets going and sour. Maybe get
some method of measuring pH, if not a pH meter, test stripes for pH 4.0
could do the trick.

>>I loaned the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book from the library but found it
>>disappointing in aspects of sourdough and pumpernickel and don't have it
>>any more.
>>
>>
>
>Even the info in the 2nd edition does not come close to that contained in
>your web-site. But it is a _lot simpler_ to carry out and the bread - if
>not outstanding - is very edible.
>
>
Hey - 3 x 3 x 3 works just fine and so does going by "feel" after a
while of tinkering with some "deviations" from the intended goal. I am
sure you have not yet ambitions to reproduce a top quality German rye
mix bread.

>>What type of bread do you have in mind and how would you influence
>>buffering with a given type of bread without using chemicals if that's
>>an issue at all at this point?
>>
>>
>
>Buffering needs two chemicals. One is (or can be) the acid(s) that make
>sourdough sour. The second is (or can be) the sodium salt of the acid(s).
>>From the measurement quotes in the reference, the simple system ends up
>with the pH held in the region of 4.0 - 4.5. Is this also optimal for the
>microorganisms active in sourdoughs?
>
>
>
I think 4.5 would be optimal for sourdough to grow (if I remember
right). With my flour, it goes like this:

Flour is 5.5 or so, with starter, the dough/refreshment comes in at 4.8,
4.5 or lower - if it's 4.2, it's getting iffy because there is not
enough "room", so I'd do a higher refresh amount. Then, it putters down,
inititally faster, at the end slower around 3.8 and it gets really slow
at 3.6, 3.58 or even lower where it ends. It depends on the flour how
fast it goes down and that's where your "buffering" comes into play,
with the darker flours having more minerals to absorb the acid it takes
longer. White flours go faster. Once I tried whey with little effect.

I would not tinker too much with chemicals (that's my personal
preference - does not have to be yours) before I have not tried the
non-chemical, non-salt way. And for making bread, you'll need bread
flour - wheat (including derivatives/ancestors Kamuth, Spelt, Triticale)
or rye. Corn-, barley-, oat- flours are not bread grains i. e. can't
hold gas. (Maybe you know all that - I glanced briefly over the
alt.bread NG thread).

So - that's really something you are trying to accomplish, great!

Samartha

At 01:01 PM 1/22/2005, Felix wrote:
>[..]
>However, when it comes to using the starter, there is a marked
>difference between the routine described in the recipes available from
>this newsgroup (recipes/part1) and her "German Sourdough Rye".
>
>Briefly, the posted recipes keep back a little of the starter (to grow a
>fresh lot) and use the bulk in the bread. The German Sourdough Rye uses
>only 1/3 cup of starter, builds it up (to a "full sour") and then uses
>that as a starting point for the bread.
>
> >From the point of view of the baked loaf, one is probably as good as the
>other. But what about the remaining starter? Does it need more radical
>refreshing than merely replacing what has been used?

If you don't have it yet, you'll need to establish is a routine where you
keep your starter in the fridge, then revive it, grow more, put something
back in the fridge and use the rest for baking. That's the homebaker's
version of continuous propagation.

How you do it, depends what works for you. You can go anywhere from easy
going, just guessing the amounts, to cup measurements to using a digital
scale and thermometer.

The information in the SD FAQ and on the net can be overwhelming.

The two routines you describe are in essence the same (making more from
less) only the apparently 1/3 cup "small" amount used seems to surprise you.

If you take this small amount (1/3 cup) and triple it three times, you get
nine cups, than hold back 1/3 cup for next time - that should work to make
some reasonable amount of dough - why would it not?

The organisms are in every teaspoon of starter and in theory, you need only
a few grams. There are practical limits to reducing, however - one of it is
the danger of drying out if it gets too small.

With growing your starter from the fridge hybernation, it is better to do
it in multiple stages than only one. The starter gets more active in that
manner.

Sorry, this got stuck on my computer and was not sent off. In the meantime,
you have posted again.

I'll go from there.

Samartha



===
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address