Felix Karpfen wrote:

> [...]
>
>>In essence, the size does not matter.
>>
>>
>
>I believe that this is the answer to my simple question.
>
>The heavily-dated routine made a relative large batch of starter, withdrew
>1 cup for baking and replaced it with one cup of fresh flour+ one cup of
>water. Further advice stated that such periodic (weekly?) refreshing is
>needed to keep the starter healthy. This routine becomes problematic if
>only 1/3 cup of starter is actually used each week.
>
>
>
It can work, but your initial inoculation (assuming that the larger
amount stays as it is) may be very inactive and would need long time to
get going again - either as starter or as dough.

There are those huge sourdough crock around - probably for a place in
the kitchen to show it off.

>
>
>>Full grain rye cultures were fine, white flour cultures often needed
>>several refreshments to get going again, with oversouring, i. e. get the
>>pH high enough apparently being the main issue.
>>
>>
>
>Hence my supplementary question.
>
>
>>Nowadays, I do mainly Detmold 3-Stage
>>
>>
>
>I have studied this from your web-site and find it both impressive and
>formidable.
>
>The temperature control is far more precise and sophisticated than
>anything that I aspire to or, for that matter, could readily find a home
>for in our kitchen. Also, 2kg-loaves are a bit large for our current
>family (2 geriatrics who are periodically visited by their [adult]
>children.
>
>
I did fine tinkering with various ways and made always good bread with it.

>
>
>>>is there any information on the use of "buffering" to keep the pH
>>>fairly constant despite the accumulation of acid?
>>>
>>>
>>How would you control specifically such factors and measure change?
>>
>>
>
>Some details are spelled out in:
>
>http://web.mountain.net/~petsonk/SRB...s/image035.gif
>
>You may also care to visit the recent thread in "alt.bread.recipes"
>entitled:
>
>pH control - was Ingredients for salt rising bread
>
>to which I contributes by 2-cents-worth.
>
>
>
Wow! "Given our current ambient temperatures (30 - 38°C),"
and the elusive salt rising bread as well....

Now, that's really interesting.

What comes to mind is that a Monica Spiller has a patent on sourdough
procedures and she was starting a sourdough from scratch at - when I
remember right - 36 C, initially to grow the right organisms, then going
on with more "normal" temperatures.

Continuous industrial sourdough fermenters apparently run also at higher
temperatures - 42 C and grow with different LB's - LB ponti. African
sorghum sourdough exists and injera - Aethopian fermented pancake-like
bread comes from higher temperatures as well.

Now, if I were in your position temperature-wise, I would take full
grain rye or wheat and grow it with a stable routine with small amounts
for a while - maybe a week or so, watching that it does not oversour,
mabe several refreshes per day, once it gets going and sour. Maybe get
some method of measuring pH, if not a pH meter, test stripes for pH 4.0
could do the trick.

>>I loaned the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book from the library but found it
>>disappointing in aspects of sourdough and pumpernickel and don't have it
>>any more.
>>
>>
>
>Even the info in the 2nd edition does not come close to that contained in
>your web-site. But it is a _lot simpler_ to carry out and the bread - if
>not outstanding - is very edible.
>
>
Hey - 3 x 3 x 3 works just fine and so does going by "feel" after a
while of tinkering with some "deviations" from the intended goal. I am
sure you have not yet ambitions to reproduce a top quality German rye
mix bread.

>>What type of bread do you have in mind and how would you influence
>>buffering with a given type of bread without using chemicals if that's
>>an issue at all at this point?
>>
>>
>
>Buffering needs two chemicals. One is (or can be) the acid(s) that make
>sourdough sour. The second is (or can be) the sodium salt of the acid(s).
>>From the measurement quotes in the reference, the simple system ends up
>with the pH held in the region of 4.0 - 4.5. Is this also optimal for the
>microorganisms active in sourdoughs?
>
>
>
I think 4.5 would be optimal for sourdough to grow (if I remember
right). With my flour, it goes like this:

Flour is 5.5 or so, with starter, the dough/refreshment comes in at 4.8,
4.5 or lower - if it's 4.2, it's getting iffy because there is not
enough "room", so I'd do a higher refresh amount. Then, it putters down,
inititally faster, at the end slower around 3.8 and it gets really slow
at 3.6, 3.58 or even lower where it ends. It depends on the flour how
fast it goes down and that's where your "buffering" comes into play,
with the darker flours having more minerals to absorb the acid it takes
longer. White flours go faster. Once I tried whey with little effect.

I would not tinker too much with chemicals (that's my personal
preference - does not have to be yours) before I have not tried the
non-chemical, non-salt way. And for making bread, you'll need bread
flour - wheat (including derivatives/ancestors Kamuth, Spelt, Triticale)
or rye. Corn-, barley-, oat- flours are not bread grains i. e. can't
hold gas. (Maybe you know all that - I glanced briefly over the
alt.bread NG thread).

So - that's really something you are trying to accomplish, great!

Samartha