At 08:46 PM 12/29/2004, Kevin wrote:


>It's going to be a bit difficult for me to know what good starter smells
>like. The only one I have is a non-standard starter from a friend that's
>feed with sugar and potato flakes. That starter has a smell not unlike
>beer with a hint of vinegar. The one I'm trying to capture is soured and
>earlier Wednesday it had overtones of a sweet smell. It reminds me of
>fresh sugar cane juice. By Wednesday evening it had a slight yeasty smell
>and a steady stream of tiny bubbles rising to the surface.

You may be fermenting something else - some kind of alcoholic
beverage. Bubbles rising to the surface?

You know, this volume measuring business is kind of vague.

I measure a cup of flour with 137 g and the cup with water 227 g which
gives a hydration of 166 % - that's high. If you go 1/2 cup water with 1
cup flour, you would have 83 % hydration with my measurements, that's better.

With the smell - you'll know when it's right. If you do full grain
starters, the smell sensations can be very entertaining.


>OTOH, my first starter attempt, which was from a dough ball of unbleached
>flour, had the aroma of cheese. That one developed mold and was promptly
>discarded. I tried this method assuming it would be harder for mold to
>gain a foothold.

That cheesy smell, that's overrun starter. I got this with white starters.
When a starter dies - the organisms die and molds can catch hold; it also
starts smelling rotten.


>Here's something interesting: I stirred it while allowing the flour to
>warm to room temperature and by feeding time all action had stopped. This
>makes me suspect that something on the sides of the jar is inhibiting the
>yeast. The yeasty smell was all but gone and only a souring smell
>remained. Based on this suspicion I've changed containers. Now I'm using
>three non-dairy topping bowls covered with paper towels.

Initially, you have all kinds of crappy organisms growing, there is really
no need to be anal about being very clean.

Covering so flies don't get is is probably a good idea. The small
fruitflies would go into my starters - they seem to like the smell.


> > It's often not clear if it's undernourishment or oversouring and the way
> > out of it is to go both ways - split it, use one part with strong dilution
> > - 1 : 10, the other part go on as before.


>Makes sense. I wondered whether to wait for a stronger starter and then
>add a small amount to clean flour. If I understand you correctly, then by
>over souring the bacteria that produces lactic acid might have gotten the
>upper hand and is inhibiting the yeast. Is that correct? Therefore by
>splitting it and diluting the starer, I'm giving the wild yeast a
>chance to multiply in a low lactic acid environment.

Well, the LB's stop when it get's too sour - the yeasts probably too.
Everything stops if it gets too sour and eventually dies.

Symptom: No activity.

The other situation is low germ count, nothing or very little growing.

Symptom: No activity.

If you look at it, you don't know which situation you are in. The way out
of it is to cover both.

With the oversouring, the new addition in feeding needs to offset the
sourness to bring it into a range where the organisms can grow again. Often
doubling the flour is not enough. Tripling works most of the time. With
established starters, and you kind of knowing what they are doing. When
starting one and you don't know where you are, a stronger dilution can be
helpful.


>Based on your suggestion, I've divided the starter into three batches.
>The first is a continuation of the original, using whole wheat flour. The
>second is five teaspoons of the original mix to one cup of standard all-
>purpose flour. The third is 1/2 cup original to 1/2 cup standard all-
>purpose flour (I was tired and miscalculated: I intended to use 1 cup of
>the original less the five teaspoons). I also added only enough water to
>make a thin dough and not just blindly dump in half a cup, on the chance
>I've been using too much water. And we shall see what we shall see.

Sounds like a plan! Although your bubble water is a mystery.

Also, you are using 1 cup feedings - that's over 100 g and you'll get a lot
of material that way.

I am sure you'll work it out.

Enjoy!

Samartha

>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

In article
ountainbitwarrior.com>,
says...
> With the oversouring, the new addition in feeding needs to offset the
> sourness to bring it into a range where the organisms can grow again. Often
> doubling the flour is not enough. Tripling works most of the time. With
> established starters, and you kind of knowing what they are doing. When
> starting one and you don't know where you are, a stronger dilution can be
> helpful.

By Thursday morning the whole wheat mix was frothy and was floating atop
liquid. The diluted and half whole wheat/half standard flour mixtures
showed little if any activity. I wondered if some other microscopic
critter in the whole wheat was throwing the mixture off. I discarded the
half and half mixture, added just standard flour to the whole wheat mix,
and fed the diluted mixture with standard flour.

Twelve hours later, small bubbles covered both mixtures. This time the
original whole wheat mix had not separated. Both had a yeasty odor. The
diluted starter smelled most of yeast and had a cleaner, sweeter smell
than the original starter. So I discarded the original and continued with
the diluted.

I now wish I had set aside a bowl made only with standard flour to use as
as a control specimen. Right now I don't know if the diluted mixture is
reacting to the inoculation from the original starter, or if the yeast
action is strictly from the standard flour.

Anyway, about four hours after the last feeding the remaining starter has
patches of small bubbles atop the mixture and yeasty sourish dusty smell.
And I started to notice an unusual reaction, not with the starter but
myself: Itching. At first I wasn't sure, but by evening it was more
pronounced. Something in the goop made me itch whenever I smelled it. I
don't have that reaction to yeast or the non-standard starter, so it must
have been something else. The starter ended up in a ziplock bag in the
trash can.

Guess I'll have to make do with the non-standard starter I got from a
friend. Until I try it again, that is.

- Kevin Cheek

In article
ountainbitwarrior.com>,
says...
> With the oversouring, the new addition in feeding needs to offset the
> sourness to bring it into a range where the organisms can grow again. Often
> doubling the flour is not enough. Tripling works most of the time. With
> established starters, and you kind of knowing what they are doing. When
> starting one and you don't know where you are, a stronger dilution can be
> helpful.

By Thursday morning the whole wheat mix was frothy and was floating atop
liquid. The diluted and half whole wheat/half standard flour mixtures
showed little if any activity. I wondered if some other microscopic
critter in the whole wheat was throwing the mixture off. I discarded the
half and half mixture, added just standard flour to the whole wheat mix,
and fed the diluted mixture with standard flour.

Twelve hours later, small bubbles covered both mixtures. This time the
original whole wheat mix had not separated. Both had a yeasty odor. The
diluted starter smelled most of yeast and had a cleaner, sweeter smell
than the original starter. So I discarded the original and continued with
the diluted.

I now wish I had set aside a bowl made only with standard flour to use as
as a control specimen. Right now I don't know if the diluted mixture is
reacting to the inoculation from the original starter, or if the yeast
action is strictly from the standard flour.

Anyway, about four hours after the last feeding the remaining starter has
patches of small bubbles atop the mixture and yeasty sourish dusty smell.
And I started to notice an unusual reaction, not with the starter but
myself: Itching. At first I wasn't sure, but by evening it was more
pronounced. Something in the goop made me itch whenever I smelled it. I
don't have that reaction to yeast or the non-standard starter, so it must
have been something else. The starter ended up in a ziplock bag in the
trash can.

Guess I'll have to make do with the non-standard starter I got from a
friend. Until I try it again, that is.

- Kevin Cheek