Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 03:58 PM
Kevin J. Cheek
 
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Default Dead Starter

It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and 1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2 cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?

- Kevin Cheek

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Old 28-12-2004, 05:13 PM
Kenneth
 
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On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:58:35 -0500, Kevin J. Cheek
wrote:

It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and 1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2 cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?

- Kevin Cheek


Hi Kevin,

First... How warm was the water?

Second... What do you know about the flour? If, for example,
it had been sterilized along the way, you are likely to get
nothing of value growing.

Next... Often at the outset, there seems to be vigorous
activity because of critters that are not those we want in a
starter. They come to life, give us hope, then die off.

I would suggest that you continue (with a caution about the
temperature of the water) for another five days or so.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Old 28-12-2004, 05:36 PM
Dusty
 
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"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
....
Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?


That's hard to say remotely, Kevin. As Kenneth pointed out, you've got to
watch your temperatures. In general some portion of the soup of critters
that comprise a SD culture don't do well as the temperature approaches 100F
and warmer. Room temp water s/b just fine.

While I would ALWAYS counsel that you use an established culture from
someone, if you must start one from scratch, I would start with Rye
flour...at least until you get it established. Use plain, unbleached, Rye
flour. Freshly ground, if you can get it, would be best. After you've got
it going you can convert 'em to whatever flour you like.

While I often do bake with both Rye and Whole Wheat, I always make and
maintain my culture with ordinary, white, bread flour. That way I have more
flexibility to make different things. I find that I don't like WW or Rye in
my Pita's or Focaccias, for instance. YM(and tastes)MV...


HTH,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

- Kevin Cheek


Hi Kevin,

First... How warm was the water?

Second... What do you know about the flour? If, for example,
it had been sterilized along the way, you are likely to get
nothing of value growing.

Next... Often at the outset, there seems to be vigorous
activity because of critters that are not those we want in a
starter. They come to life, give us hope, then die off.

I would suggest that you continue (with a caution about the
temperature of the water) for another five days or so.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."



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Old 28-12-2004, 05:36 PM
Dusty
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
....
Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?


That's hard to say remotely, Kevin. As Kenneth pointed out, you've got to
watch your temperatures. In general some portion of the soup of critters
that comprise a SD culture don't do well as the temperature approaches 100F
and warmer. Room temp water s/b just fine.

While I would ALWAYS counsel that you use an established culture from
someone, if you must start one from scratch, I would start with Rye
flour...at least until you get it established. Use plain, unbleached, Rye
flour. Freshly ground, if you can get it, would be best. After you've got
it going you can convert 'em to whatever flour you like.

While I often do bake with both Rye and Whole Wheat, I always make and
maintain my culture with ordinary, white, bread flour. That way I have more
flexibility to make different things. I find that I don't like WW or Rye in
my Pita's or Focaccias, for instance. YM(and tastes)MV...


HTH,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

- Kevin Cheek


Hi Kevin,

First... How warm was the water?

Second... What do you know about the flour? If, for example,
it had been sterilized along the way, you are likely to get
nothing of value growing.

Next... Often at the outset, there seems to be vigorous
activity because of critters that are not those we want in a
starter. They come to life, give us hope, then die off.

I would suggest that you continue (with a caution about the
temperature of the water) for another five days or so.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."



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Old 28-12-2004, 07:59 PM
Will
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Kevin J. Cheek wrote:
It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one

cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and

set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at

the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and

1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles

about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of

water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2

cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed

and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?

- Kevin Cheek


Kevin,

Get about a pound of rye berries at your local health food store or
coop (get wheat berries if they don't have rye). Mill them or pulverize
them in your blender. With a little water, form a small ball of dough
about the size of golf ball. Place the golf ball in a small covered
glass jar. Wait two days. Peel off the dry outer crust and mix with
more flour and water to make another golfball. Repeat this cycle about
4 or 5 times. You will notice the ball becoming fragrant and forming
expansion cracks as it ferments. This is good. Once you have active
"golf ball" you can add it to a half cup of water + a half cup of flour
and begin your first sponge.

Fresh grain and moist, not wet, conditions are the two keys to getting
this right. Don't start with flour you haven't made yourself.

Will



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Old 28-12-2004, 07:59 PM
Will
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Kevin J. Cheek wrote:
It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one

cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and

set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at

the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and

1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles

about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of

water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2

cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed

and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?

- Kevin Cheek


Kevin,

Get about a pound of rye berries at your local health food store or
coop (get wheat berries if they don't have rye). Mill them or pulverize
them in your blender. With a little water, form a small ball of dough
about the size of golf ball. Place the golf ball in a small covered
glass jar. Wait two days. Peel off the dry outer crust and mix with
more flour and water to make another golfball. Repeat this cycle about
4 or 5 times. You will notice the ball becoming fragrant and forming
expansion cracks as it ferments. This is good. Once you have active
"golf ball" you can add it to a half cup of water + a half cup of flour
and begin your first sponge.

Fresh grain and moist, not wet, conditions are the two keys to getting
this right. Don't start with flour you haven't made yourself.

Will

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 11:49 PM
Mac
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:58:35 -0500, Kevin J. Cheek wrote:

It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and 1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2 cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?


Here is one hypothesis: whatever was growing in your concoction was killed
by a viral infection.

- Kevin Cheek


--Mac

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 11:49 PM
Mac
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:58:35 -0500, Kevin J. Cheek wrote:

It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and 1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2 cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?


Here is one hypothesis: whatever was growing in your concoction was killed
by a viral infection.

- Kevin Cheek


--Mac

  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 04:04 AM
Samartha
 
Posts: n/a
Default

At 08:58 AM 12/28/2004, Kevin wrote:
It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and 1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2 cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?


Probably oversoured/undernourished - for sure after the last 24 hours. I am
not sure if you mean by "mixed" after 12 hours that you fed it again. It's
not clear how you fed it after the second step -

1 - 24 hours: reduce and double
2 - 12 hours: activity, reduce and double again
3 - 12 hours: no more activity - not clear if you fed again
4 - 24 hours: no more activity - not clear if you fed again

What's somewhat strange is the separation/floating you describe after step 2.

If you have sour smell and nothing or little putrid/disgusting/strange
smell, you are in business and need to keep nursing. In your case, that
would have been after 36 hours.

Somewhat correlating with:

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01-5.html

The tricky part is to recognize oversouring and take countermeasures i. e.
stronger dilution. If it's happening and you don't keep going, it gets quiet.

It could be that the LB's are not doing much gassing, but are active and
kill everything else off and then shut down themselves.

It's often not clear if it's undernourishment or oversouring and the way
out of it is to go both ways - split it, use one part with strong dilution
- 1 : 10, the other part go on as before.

Also, stirring helps moving the nutrients around, get some air in (the
critters like it) and get a control on gas production.

It could well be that your quiet mixture comes up again, when you do a
strong dilution and continue feeding.

Growth rates are geometric in the area of doubling maybe every 1 1/2 - 2
1/2 hours, so going at full blast, you can have like a 64-fold increase in
12 hours and a 4096-fold increase in 24 hours if no hindering factors
(souring, nutrient depletion) come into play which happen

Maybe it gives you some ideas what could be going on.

In any way - congratulations to trying this. Can be a rewarding experience.

As for the other responses:

Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and smelled sour.
Mac: suspected virus - Nice idea. Souring by LB's is pretty
established in our biosphere. Maybe DA can tell you more about this. He
claimed to be unable to keep a starter going for a longer time and need to
get regular updates - all to be taken with grains of salt from that corner.

Samartha


_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

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Old 29-12-2004, 04:04 AM
Samartha
 
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Default

At 08:58 AM 12/28/2004, Kevin wrote:
It was going so well. I sterilized the jar and utensils, mixed in one cup
of warm water (chlorine free) with one cup of whole wheat flour and set
aside. After 24 hours the flour had settled, leaving dark water at the
top, but there were some bubbles.

Mixed, poured out one cup and mixed in 1/2 cup whole wheat flour and 1/2
cup warm water. In 12 hours the mixture had doubled, with bubbles about
1/8 of an inch across throughout, and was floating atop a layer of water.
The starter had a sour smell. Mixed, poured out one cup, mixed in 1/2 cup
whole wheat flour and 1/2 cup warm water, and set aside again.

Then nothing. After 12 hours there were no signs of bubbles. Mixed and
waited 12 hours more. Nothing. Waited another 24 hours. Nothing.

What happened?


Probably oversoured/undernourished - for sure after the last 24 hours. I am
not sure if you mean by "mixed" after 12 hours that you fed it again. It's
not clear how you fed it after the second step -

1 - 24 hours: reduce and double
2 - 12 hours: activity, reduce and double again
3 - 12 hours: no more activity - not clear if you fed again
4 - 24 hours: no more activity - not clear if you fed again

What's somewhat strange is the separation/floating you describe after step 2.

If you have sour smell and nothing or little putrid/disgusting/strange
smell, you are in business and need to keep nursing. In your case, that
would have been after 36 hours.

Somewhat correlating with:

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01-5.html

The tricky part is to recognize oversouring and take countermeasures i. e.
stronger dilution. If it's happening and you don't keep going, it gets quiet.

It could be that the LB's are not doing much gassing, but are active and
kill everything else off and then shut down themselves.

It's often not clear if it's undernourishment or oversouring and the way
out of it is to go both ways - split it, use one part with strong dilution
- 1 : 10, the other part go on as before.

Also, stirring helps moving the nutrients around, get some air in (the
critters like it) and get a control on gas production.

It could well be that your quiet mixture comes up again, when you do a
strong dilution and continue feeding.

Growth rates are geometric in the area of doubling maybe every 1 1/2 - 2
1/2 hours, so going at full blast, you can have like a 64-fold increase in
12 hours and a 4096-fold increase in 24 hours if no hindering factors
(souring, nutrient depletion) come into play which happen

Maybe it gives you some ideas what could be going on.

In any way - congratulations to trying this. Can be a rewarding experience.

As for the other responses:

Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and smelled sour.
Mac: suspected virus - Nice idea. Souring by LB's is pretty
established in our biosphere. Maybe DA can tell you more about this. He
claimed to be unable to keep a starter going for a longer time and need to
get regular updates - all to be taken with grains of salt from that corner.

Samartha


_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 04:50 AM
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In message =
news:[email protected] ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om
Samartha claimed that I=20
claimed to be unable to keep a starter going for a longer time and=20
need to get regular updates - all to be taken with grains of salt=20
from that corner


What in blazes is Samartha talking about? -- could such a=20
claim as that be Googled?

Occasionally someone or other claims that starting with a known=20
culture makes good sense.

But if everybody did that, there would be none of these hopeless
threads and perpetual commiseration. So what then for the chatters
to chat about?

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

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Old 29-12-2004, 09:59 AM
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:06 -0700, Samartha
wrote:

Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and smelled sour.


Hi Samartha,

Perhaps you are right, but IIRC it was active only at the
very start. That pointed me in the direction of
contamination rather than the growth of critters in the
flour.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 04:23 PM
Will
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Kenneth wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:06 -0700, Samartha
wrote:

Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and

smelled sour.

Hi Samartha,

Perhaps you are right, but IIRC it was active only at the
very start. That pointed me in the direction of
contamination rather than the growth of critters in the
flour.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


If the culture environment is dryer, as in dough-like, you can avoid
most, if not all, of the opportunistic growth from undesireable
bacteria. The appropriate microbial culture comes with fresh grain. It
is the basis of a symbiotic ecology which makes makes sprouting
efficient. Your gut carries bacterial for the same purpose: to make
energy conversion efficient. Too much water is not a natural state for
sourdough culture(s). Samartha has mentioned on several occassions that
stirring to oxygenate is important. Why might this be? Too much water?
All of the comments about hooch indicate bad culture practices, wastes
are inbalancing the culture process. There is nothing in the
grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water. Grain rots in a
flooded field.

So does flour under water.

Will

  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 05:51 PM
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 29 Dec 2004 08:23:51 -0800, "Will"
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:06 -0700, Samartha
wrote:

Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and

smelled sour.

Hi Samartha,

Perhaps you are right, but IIRC it was active only at the
very start. That pointed me in the direction of
contamination rather than the growth of critters in the
flour.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


If the culture environment is dryer, as in dough-like, you can avoid
most, if not all, of the opportunistic growth from undesireable
bacteria. The appropriate microbial culture comes with fresh grain. It
is the basis of a symbiotic ecology which makes makes sprouting
efficient. Your gut carries bacterial for the same purpose: to make
energy conversion efficient. Too much water is not a natural state for
sourdough culture(s). Samartha has mentioned on several occassions that
stirring to oxygenate is important. Why might this be? Too much water?
All of the comments about hooch indicate bad culture practices, wastes
are inbalancing the culture process. There is nothing in the
grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water. Grain rots in a
flooded field.

So does flour under water.

Will


Hi Will,

I don't dispute your suggestion, but the logic seems a bit
tortured...

First, though the yeasts do, indeed, come "with fresh grain"
it is my understanding that the lactobacilli do not. It is
my understanding that they seem to come from the baker.

Also, when you say of the "culture" that "It is the basis of
a symbiotic ecology which makes sprouting efficient." I
don't get the connection between sprouting, and generating a
sourdough culture (even leaving aside the issue of the
absence of LB on the grain.)

Similarly when you say "There is nothing in the
grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water." That
would certainly seem to be true, but how might that fact be
connected to the growth of a viable culture for baking?

It seems rather like suggesting that we cannot make rubber
from latex because there is nothing in the cycle of the life
of the Hevea tree that involves the shedding of the sap...

And finally, in response to Samartha's suggesting stirring,
you ask "Why might this be? Too much water?" but, again, I
don't get the connection. Why would stirring be related to
the amount of water?

I certainly agree with your comment that "the comments about
hooch indicate bad culture practices" but don't see any
(direct) connection to the issue of the amount of water in
the starter.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 07:52 PM
Will
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Kenneth wrote:
On 29 Dec 2004 08:23:51 -0800, "Will"
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:06 -0700, Samartha
wrote:

Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and

smelled sour.

Hi Samartha,

Perhaps you are right, but IIRC it was active only at the
very start. That pointed me in the direction of
contamination rather than the growth of critters in the
flour.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


If the culture environment is dryer, as in dough-like, you can avoid
most, if not all, of the opportunistic growth from undesireable
bacteria. The appropriate microbial culture comes with fresh grain.

It
is the basis of a symbiotic ecology which makes makes sprouting
efficient. Your gut carries bacterial for the same purpose: to make
energy conversion efficient. Too much water is not a natural state

for
sourdough culture(s). Samartha has mentioned on several occassions

that
stirring to oxygenate is important. Why might this be? Too much

water?
All of the comments about hooch indicate bad culture practices,

wastes
are inbalancing the culture process. There is nothing in the
grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water. Grain rots in a
flooded field.

So does flour under water.

Will


Hi Will,

I don't dispute your suggestion, but the logic seems a bit
tortured...


Ok, I'll try a Houdini-like escape via in-line responses...

First, though the yeasts do, indeed, come "with fresh grain"
it is my understanding that the lactobacilli do not. It is
my understanding that they seem to come from the baker.

------
Not according to the paper Roy Basin linked in this forum about 5
months ago. Those scientists tested several geographically dispersed
grain supplies and spectographically typed "both sides" of a number of
SD cultures.
------

Also, when you say of the "culture" that "It is the basis of
a symbiotic ecology which makes sprouting efficient." I
don't get the connection between sprouting, and generating a
sourdough culture (even leaving aside the issue of the
absence of LB on the grain.)


-----
Consider the well known use of malted barley. It is added to all
quality bread flours. The grain is partially sprouted to promote the
presence of an important sugar complex and diastace, an enzyme that
increases fermentation efficiency. There is a lot of documented science
in this area.
------


Similarly when you say "There is nothing in the
grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water." That
would certainly seem to be true, but how might that fact be
connected to the growth of a viable culture for baking?


-----
The growth question you pose is key. The SD culture we want to grow
does not feed on water AND it needs enzymes provided by the grain, on
the grain, to work. Diluting and dispersing isn't logical.
-----


It seems rather like suggesting that we cannot make rubber
from latex because there is nothing in the cycle of the life
of the Hevea tree that involves the shedding of the sap...


----
I have to admit I like your analogy. Would you add water to the latex
too?.
----


And finally, in response to Samartha's suggesting stirring,
you ask "Why might this be? Too much water?" but, again, I
don't get the connection. Why would stirring be related to
the amount of water?


----
If the key components are diluted and spatially separated from one
another and if oxygen is a player which it is in the Krebs cycle... one
might stir periodically to combine them.
----


I certainly agree with your comment that "the comments about
hooch indicate bad culture practices" but don't see any
(direct) connection to the issue of the amount of water in
the starter.


----
What is hooch but too much water and trapped respiration waste after
everything settles?
Without the water layer, the starter would outgas cleanly.

My argument isn't that water is bad. My argument is that too much water
is fundamentally inefficient. When I start a culture with a moistened
ball of dough, I do not have to worry about competing "bad" organisms
fooling me for a couple of days. And I don't deal with hooch or watch
the bubbles moving through it.

The smell of a ripened piece of dough has very little in common with
the smell of submerged starter.
That should tell us something.
-----

Will



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