On 12/2/04 5:20 PM, "Randall Nortman" > wrote:

> I've been wrestling with how to incorporate intact or cracked grains
> (e.g., wheat berries, millet, oat groats, amaranth, quinoa) into my
> doughs. In particular, I'm trying to figure out how to maintain the
> water content of my dough at a particular ratio while also
> incorporating a mix of several types of intact grains.
>
> My first observation was that even when pre-soaked, many grains turn
> into tooth-chipping pebbles in the crust of the bread, because they
> dry out in the first few minutes of baking before they can cook fully.
> Millet seems to be a particular culprit here. Therefore, I now cook
> the grains completely before adding them to the dough, either by
> boiling or in a rice steamer.
>
> I've been cooking a measured weight of grains in plain water, then
> weighing the cooked grains afterward and subtract the dry grain weight
> to determine the amount of water that remains in the grains. I then
> add the dry weight of the grains to the weight of flour to get a total
> dry weight, then multiply this by my chosen hydration (typically 70%
> for my whole-wheat doughs) to determine how much total water I need.
> I subtract out the amount of water retained by the grains to determine
> how much to add to the final dough. So in essence, I'm including the
> grains in the hydration calculation as if they were flour, and
> including the water they absorbed during cooking as if it were water
> added directly to the dough.
>
> I've found that this doesn't work very reliably, because different
> grains seem to absorb very different amounts of water, and so the
> hydration percentage needs to be different for every combination of
> grains I use. I like to use lots of different grains together, and I
> like to be able to tweak the mix without going through several trial
> and error batches to get the recipe right.
>
> Perhaps it is better to cook the grains, then drain (and rinse?) them,
> allowing them to retain whatever amount of water they "want" to, then
> ignore the grains (and their retained water) when doing the hydration
> calculation. I worry with this method that during a long
> fermentation, the grains will still exchange water with the dough,
> altering the wetness of the dough. It seems that oat groats
> especially would shed water into the dough, since they get so soft and
> mushy when they're cooked.
>
> Are there any options I'm leaving out? How do you (collectively and
> individually) deal with intact grains? I'm also curious about what
> percentage of "chunky stuff" others have been able to include in a
> dough without turning the resulting bread into a brick.
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Randall,

I keep a bucket of hydrated grains in my refrigerator. I find that after a
two days or so they have absorbed all of the water they need. I add them to
my doughs as inert ingredients, meaning I subtract their volumes from my
formula but do not otherwise alter my ratios. So if I want an 1800 gram
dough, I'll build for 1400 and add 400 of grain. You will have to work on
shaping technique to minimize exposed grains in the crust. This translates
to minimal handling and very modest final rounding. If the grain is well
hydrated, it behaves much like the regular crust anyway. Retarding the dough
does quite a bit towards equalizing the water content throughout the loaf. I
do not add whole or cracked grains to doughs I do not age. When baking
consider using an enclosed pot/pan/container (like a cloche). Bake covered
for the first 20 minutes then remove the top for the last 15 to finish the
bread. You get the initial benefits of a very moist environment and the
finish provides a good mature crust without creating "rocks".

If you really are into the whole or cracked grain approach, you should look
into making pumpernickel. I've been fooling around with Samartha's 16 hour
water bath variety. It's a wonderful change of pace from levain style bread:
dense, grainy, wonderful nose, very complex flavor.

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html

Will

On 2004-12-03, Will Waller > wrote:
[...]
> I keep a bucket of hydrated grains in my refrigerator. I find that after a
> two days or so they have absorbed all of the water they need. I add them to
> my doughs as inert ingredients, meaning I subtract their volumes from my
> formula but do not otherwise alter my ratios. So if I want an 1800 gram
> dough, I'll build for 1400 and add 400 of grain. You will have to work on
> shaping technique to minimize exposed grains in the crust. This translates
> to minimal handling and very modest final rounding. If the grain is well
> hydrated, it behaves much like the regular crust anyway. Retarding the dough
> does quite a bit towards equalizing the water content throughout the loaf. I
> do not add whole or cracked grains to doughs I do not age.

I'm skeptical about not pre-cooking, but I guess I never tried soaking
for a full two days. I may give it a try, but the important part is
that you do not include the grains and the water they absorb in your
flour:water calculation. The more I think about it, the more sense
this makes to me. It still seems a bit inaccurate given that some
moisture exchange is bound to occur during a long fermentation, but
there doesn't seem to be any better alternative. (Aside from finding
a source of data on the absorption properties of various grains and
building a spreadsheet to figure it all out for a given mix of
grains... any takers?)


> When baking consider using an enclosed pot/pan/container (like a
> cloche). Bake covered for the first 20 minutes then remove the top
> for the last 15 to finish the bread. You get the initial benefits of
> a very moist environment and the finish provides a good mature crust
> without creating "rocks".

I don't have a cloche, but I might try to approximate one. I have a
3.5qt Le Creuset (enameled cast iron) pot that might work for a single
loaf, though I'd have to let the dough rise inside it and put the
whole thing in the oven cold, because it would be pretty hard to lower
a risen loaf into the pot without deforming it.


> If you really are into the whole or cracked grain approach, you should look
> into making pumpernickel. I've been fooling around with Samartha's 16 hour
> water bath variety. It's a wonderful change of pace from levain style bread:
> dense, grainy, wonderful nose, very complex flavor.
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html

Yes, I came across that recipe a couple of weeks ago and it's been
haunting me ever since. I don't have a grain mill or a local source
for coarse rye meal, though, so I'm afraid it's a bit out of reach for
me at the moment. If I don't lose interest, I'll probably buy a grain
mill in a year or so, and then you can bet I'll be giving pumpernickel
a try. I've also considered that perhaps I could use the process with
a slightly different type of flour -- I can get both whole-grain rye
flour and rolled rye flakes locally, and the combination might get
close to the texture of coarse rye meal


Thanks for the tips.

--
Randall

in article t, Randall
Nortman at wrote on 2/12/04 7:25 PM:

> On 2004-12-03, Will Waller > wrote:
> [...]
>> I keep a bucket of hydrated grains in my refrigerator. I find that after a
>> two days or so they have absorbed all of the water they need. I add them to
>> my doughs as inert ingredients, meaning I subtract their volumes from my
>> formula but do not otherwise alter my ratios. So if I want an 1800 gram
>> dough, I'll build for 1400 and add 400 of grain. You will have to work on
>> shaping technique to minimize exposed grains in the crust. This translates
>> to minimal handling and very modest final rounding. If the grain is well
>> hydrated, it behaves much like the regular crust anyway. Retarding the dough
>> does quite a bit towards equalizing the water content throughout the loaf. I
>> do not add whole or cracked grains to doughs I do not age.
>
> I'm skeptical about not pre-cooking, but I guess I never tried soaking
> for a full two days. I may give it a try, but the important part is
> that you do not include the grains and the water they absorb in your
> flour:water calculation. The more I think about it, the more sense
> this makes to me. It still seems a bit inaccurate given that some
> moisture exchange is bound to occur during a long fermentation, but
> there doesn't seem to be any better alternative. (Aside from finding
> a source of data on the absorption properties of various grains and
> building a spreadsheet to figure it all out for a given mix of
> grains... any takers?)
>
>
>> When baking consider using an enclosed pot/pan/container (like a
>> cloche). Bake covered for the first 20 minutes then remove the top
>> for the last 15 to finish the bread. You get the initial benefits of
>> a very moist environment and the finish provides a good mature crust
>> without creating "rocks".
>
> I don't have a cloche, but I might try to approximate one. I have a
> 3.5qt Le Creuset (enameled cast iron) pot that might work for a single
> loaf, though I'd have to let the dough rise inside it and put the
> whole thing in the oven cold, because it would be pretty hard to lower
> a risen loaf into the pot without deforming it.
>
>
>> If you really are into the whole or cracked grain approach, you should look
>> into making pumpernickel. I've been fooling around with Samartha's 16 hour
>> water bath variety. It's a wonderful change of pace from levain style bread:
>> dense, grainy, wonderful nose, very complex flavor.
>>
>> http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html
>
> Yes, I came across that recipe a couple of weeks ago and it's been
> haunting me ever since. I don't have a grain mill or a local source
> for coarse rye meal, though, so I'm afraid it's a bit out of reach for
> me at the moment. If I don't lose interest, I'll probably buy a grain
> mill in a year or so, and then you can bet I'll be giving pumpernickel
> a try. I've also considered that perhaps I could use the process with
> a slightly different type of flour -- I can get both whole-grain rye
> flour and rolled rye flakes locally, and the combination might get
> close to the texture of coarse rye meal
>
>
> Thanks for the tips.
But you could lower the pot down over the loaf.
Ellen
--

in article t, Randall
Nortman at wrote on 2/12/04 7:25 PM:

> On 2004-12-03, Will Waller > wrote:
> [...]
>> I keep a bucket of hydrated grains in my refrigerator. I find that after a
>> two days or so they have absorbed all of the water they need. I add them to
>> my doughs as inert ingredients, meaning I subtract their volumes from my
>> formula but do not otherwise alter my ratios. So if I want an 1800 gram
>> dough, I'll build for 1400 and add 400 of grain. You will have to work on
>> shaping technique to minimize exposed grains in the crust. This translates
>> to minimal handling and very modest final rounding. If the grain is well
>> hydrated, it behaves much like the regular crust anyway. Retarding the dough
>> does quite a bit towards equalizing the water content throughout the loaf. I
>> do not add whole or cracked grains to doughs I do not age.
>
> I'm skeptical about not pre-cooking, but I guess I never tried soaking
> for a full two days. I may give it a try, but the important part is
> that you do not include the grains and the water they absorb in your
> flour:water calculation. The more I think about it, the more sense
> this makes to me. It still seems a bit inaccurate given that some
> moisture exchange is bound to occur during a long fermentation, but
> there doesn't seem to be any better alternative. (Aside from finding
> a source of data on the absorption properties of various grains and
> building a spreadsheet to figure it all out for a given mix of
> grains... any takers?)
>
>
>> When baking consider using an enclosed pot/pan/container (like a
>> cloche). Bake covered for the first 20 minutes then remove the top
>> for the last 15 to finish the bread. You get the initial benefits of
>> a very moist environment and the finish provides a good mature crust
>> without creating "rocks".
>
> I don't have a cloche, but I might try to approximate one. I have a
> 3.5qt Le Creuset (enameled cast iron) pot that might work for a single
> loaf, though I'd have to let the dough rise inside it and put the
> whole thing in the oven cold, because it would be pretty hard to lower
> a risen loaf into the pot without deforming it.
>
>
>> If you really are into the whole or cracked grain approach, you should look
>> into making pumpernickel. I've been fooling around with Samartha's 16 hour
>> water bath variety. It's a wonderful change of pace from levain style bread:
>> dense, grainy, wonderful nose, very complex flavor.
>>
>> http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html
>
> Yes, I came across that recipe a couple of weeks ago and it's been
> haunting me ever since. I don't have a grain mill or a local source
> for coarse rye meal, though, so I'm afraid it's a bit out of reach for
> me at the moment. If I don't lose interest, I'll probably buy a grain
> mill in a year or so, and then you can bet I'll be giving pumpernickel
> a try. I've also considered that perhaps I could use the process with
> a slightly different type of flour -- I can get both whole-grain rye
> flour and rolled rye flakes locally, and the combination might get
> close to the texture of coarse rye meal
>
>
> Thanks for the tips.
But you could lower the pot down over the loaf.
Ellen
--

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 23:20:50 +0000, Randall Nortman wrote:

> I've been wrestling with how to incorporate intact or cracked grains
> (e.g., wheat berries, millet, oat groats, amaranth, quinoa) into my
> doughs. In particular, I'm trying to figure out how to maintain the
> water content of my dough at a particular ratio while also
> incorporating a mix of several types of intact grains.
>
> My first observation was that even when pre-soaked, many grains turn
> into tooth-chipping pebbles in the crust of the bread, because they
> dry out in the first few minutes of baking before they can cook fully.
> Millet seems to be a particular culprit here. Therefore, I now cook
> the grains completely before adding them to the dough, either by
> boiling or in a rice steamer.
>
> I've been cooking a measured weight of grains in plain water, then
> weighing the cooked grains afterward and subtract the dry grain weight
> to determine the amount of water that remains in the grains. I then
> add the dry weight of the grains to the weight of flour to get a total
> dry weight, then multiply this by my chosen hydration (typically 70%
> for my whole-wheat doughs) to determine how much total water I need.
> I subtract out the amount of water retained by the grains to determine
> how much to add to the final dough. So in essence, I'm including the
> grains in the hydration calculation as if they were flour, and
> including the water they absorbed during cooking as if it were water
> added directly to the dough.
>
> I've found that this doesn't work very reliably, because different
> grains seem to absorb very different amounts of water, and so the
> hydration percentage needs to be different for every combination of
> grains I use. I like to use lots of different grains together, and I
> like to be able to tweak the mix without going through several trial
> and error batches to get the recipe right.
>
> Perhaps it is better to cook the grains, then drain (and rinse?) them,
> allowing them to retain whatever amount of water they "want" to, then
> ignore the grains (and their retained water) when doing the hydration
> calculation. I worry with this method that during a long
> fermentation, the grains will still exchange water with the dough,
> altering the wetness of the dough. It seems that oat groats
> especially would shed water into the dough, since they get so soft and
> mushy when they're cooked.
>
> Are there any options I'm leaving out? How do you (collectively and
> individually) deal with intact grains? I'm also curious about what
> percentage of "chunky stuff" others have been able to include in a
> dough without turning the resulting bread into a brick.
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Many grains can be rolled. Classic oatmeal is just rolled oats, as you
probably already know. You can buy grain rollers from the same sorts of
places where you can buy grain mills. I don't have any experience with
this, but it seems to me that rolling the grains would cause them to cook
much more quickly.

--Mac

>Randall Nortman wrote:

> > ....
> > Randall, I am sure you already know but where white bread flour
> > roughly holds 45-80% of its amount in water depending on what type of
> > bread you are making, grains can hold much more water especially if
> > they are high in gums such as pentosans which can hold many times
> > their weight in water.
>
> In fact I knew there was variation, but I did not know that some
> grains could hold that much more than wheat. Which grains are
> particularly high in these gums? I'm guessing maybe oats?

Wheat berries, rye, oats, to name the higher pentosan containing ones.
The others may contain some hydrophilic gums which also retain
substantial amounts of water.

Dave J in CA

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:25:01 +0000, Randall Nortman wrote:

[snip]

> I don't have a grain mill or a local source
> for coarse rye meal, though, so I'm afraid it's a bit out of reach for
> me at the moment.

I posted this in a recent thread, but here it is again, in case you are
interested and missed it the first time.

Bob's red mill sells organic pumpernickel dark rye meal. They deliver all
over the USA. I have ordered from them but I use the meal as a hot cereal,
so I can't tell you how it bakes. Here is a URL:

http://www.bobsredmill.com/catalog/i...product_ID=284

Depending on how the above URL looks (for example, it may carry over onto
two lines) you may have to reconstruct it. If all else fails, just go to:

http://www.bobsredmill.com

--Mac (who is not affiliated in any way with Bob's Red Mill)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:25:01 +0000, Randall Nortman wrote:

[snip]

> I don't have a grain mill or a local source
> for coarse rye meal, though, so I'm afraid it's a bit out of reach for
> me at the moment.

I posted this in a recent thread, but here it is again, in case you are
interested and missed it the first time.

Bob's red mill sells organic pumpernickel dark rye meal. They deliver all
over the USA. I have ordered from them but I use the meal as a hot cereal,
so I can't tell you how it bakes. Here is a URL:

http://www.bobsredmill.com/catalog/i...product_ID=284

Depending on how the above URL looks (for example, it may carry over onto
two lines) you may have to reconstruct it. If all else fails, just go to:

http://www.bobsredmill.com

--Mac (who is not affiliated in any way with Bob's Red Mill)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:25:01 +0000, Randall Nortman wrote:

[snip]

> I don't have a grain mill or a local source
> for coarse rye meal, though, so I'm afraid it's a bit out of reach for
> me at the moment.

I posted this in a recent thread, but here it is again, in case you are
interested and missed it the first time.

Bob's red mill sells organic pumpernickel dark rye meal. They deliver all
over the USA. I have ordered from them but I use the meal as a hot cereal,
so I can't tell you how it bakes. Here is a URL:

http://www.bobsredmill.com/catalog/i...product_ID=284

Depending on how the above URL looks (for example, it may carry over onto
two lines) you may have to reconstruct it. If all else fails, just go to:

http://www.bobsredmill.com

--Mac (who is not affiliated in any way with Bob's Red Mill)

The grains I toss into the dough include

wheat
sesame
carraway (sp?)
flax
sunflower
bulghar #2

and probably some I forgot. I just toss them in with all the other
ingredients to get some crunch. The wheat and bulghar are there primarily
there for the crunch. I don't bother to do anything else.

The wheat kernels are probably the hardest parts of this collection. Once
cooked, my teeth, which are far from perfect, seem to handle the hardness
without any problem.

Bill

The grains I toss into the dough include

wheat
sesame
carraway (sp?)
flax
sunflower
bulghar #2

and probably some I forgot. I just toss them in with all the other
ingredients to get some crunch. The wheat and bulghar are there primarily
there for the crunch. I don't bother to do anything else.

The wheat kernels are probably the hardest parts of this collection. Once
cooked, my teeth, which are far from perfect, seem to handle the hardness
without any problem.

Bill

The grains I toss into the dough include

wheat
sesame
carraway (sp?)
flax
sunflower
bulghar #2

and probably some I forgot. I just toss them in with all the other
ingredients to get some crunch. The wheat and bulghar are there primarily
there for the crunch. I don't bother to do anything else.

The wheat kernels are probably the hardest parts of this collection. Once
cooked, my teeth, which are far from perfect, seem to handle the hardness
without any problem.

Bill