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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Not all that sour
I got a start of Carl Griffith's Oregon Trail starter from the nice folks
at the web site, and it took off nicely. The bread rises quite well, using the "world sourdough" recipe from Sourdoughs of the World. BUT It isn't especially sour. I've done a couple of batches now, keeping the starter in the fridge between, and waking it up the day before. Should I just culture the starter for a while to encourage the acid making bacteria? Thanks, Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
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"Gary Woods" >=20 wrote in message ... > I got a start of Carl Griffith's Oregon Trail ... It isn't = especially=20 > sour ... Should I just culture the starter for a while to encourage=20 > the acid making bacteria? It will make sour bread as soon as it is fully activated, maybe in a day or two at room temperature. The starter when used should not be sour, rather active. Sourness and flavor develop during the rise. Making dough which will sustain a long enough rise for that takes some expertise. So does refreshing a dormant starter. The idea that it takes a sour starter to make sour bread is=20 remarkably persistent. In fact, some people still believe it. Perhaps a debate will follow. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"Dick Adams" > wrote:
>Making dough which will sustain a long enough rise for that takes >some expertise. So does refreshing a dormant start Well, there's no problem with activity! The second time I used the starter, I proofed the dough at room temp, so it rose a little slower. Still, took just 3 hours. I refreshed the starter the day before, and it was foaming nicely when I made the sponge in the evening to "work" overnight. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:45:44 GMT, Gary Woods
> wrote: >The second time I used the >starter, I proofed the dough at room temp, so it rose a little slower. >Still, took just 3 hours. Hi Gary, When you say it "took just 3 hours" what do you mean? Did you bake it at three hours because it looked a certain way, or because you knew that by baking at that point you would have the type of taste you wanted? Generally (and other things being held the same), the longer you allow the fermentation to continue before baking, the more sour the finished loaf. If you can duplicate just what you did, but instead let the loaf take longer before the bake, you may get just the taste you want. For pan loaves, doing that is rather easy because the pan "holds it all together." For hearth loaves, it is a more difficult juggle because as time goes by and the pH goes down (making the loaf more sour), the gluten degrades making the dough softer. Give a longer final proof a try and let us know the results. HTH, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Kenneth > wrote:
>When you say it "took just 3 hours" what do you mean? > The dough had reached the top of the pan and was in danger of spilling down the side. The recipe makes two loaves in pans. One pan is a bit larger and heavier.... got it at a yuppie gourmet chef supply store in a yuppie-oriented mall near Albany, NY. Despite the frou-frou ambience, they do have nice stuff at rational prices. The pan is aluminum-coated iron. > >Give a longer final proof a try and let us know the results. I'll do that tomorrow, and report back... Thanks! Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
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"Joe Doe" > wrote in message = ... > ... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent=20 > leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this=20 > (early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some=20 > flour to reinvigorate the leavening power. I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks. Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia=20 and Carl's. > Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex. I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that = I=20 > bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone = > this route. It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their = cultures together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to = be a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from melding. I would not be good for making that determination because=20 nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an = expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you. -- DickA P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html appear to have become obsolete. |
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"Joe Doe" > wrote in message = ... > ... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent=20 > leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this=20 > (early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some=20 > flour to reinvigorate the leavening power. I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks. Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia=20 and Carl's. > Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex. I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that = I=20 > bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone = > this route. It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their = cultures together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to = be a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from melding. I would not be good for making that determination because=20 nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an = expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you. -- DickA P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html appear to have become obsolete. |
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At 08:22 PM 10/25/2004, Dick Adams wrote:
.... >The idea that it takes a sour starter to make sour bread is >remarkably persistent. In fact, some people still believe it. .... >Sourness and flavor develop during the rise. during 10 minutes rest: http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/ Duh! >Perhaps a debate will follow. tssk.. remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
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At 08:22 PM 10/25/2004, Dick Adams wrote:
.... >The idea that it takes a sour starter to make sour bread is >remarkably persistent. In fact, some people still believe it. .... >Sourness and flavor develop during the rise. during 10 minutes rest: http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/ Duh! >Perhaps a debate will follow. tssk.. remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
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In message news:mailman.1098856690.19532.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c= om "Samartha" > predictably took exception to my statement: > > Sourness and flavor develop during the rise. with the mention of the following linked conjectu " Stage 1 is used to promote yeast and lactobacillus=20 multiplication, stage 2 for developing acid and stage 3=20 to develop all microorganisms." attributed to=20 Schuenemann/Treu, Technologie der Backwarenherstellung,=20 9th edition 1999, Gildebuchverlag Germany, 134 ( http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/ ) and concluded as follows: > Duh! It is exciting to discover that the microorganisms know exactly what to do according to the number of a particular stage. Presumably those are organisms for rye sourdough, possibly smarter than those that do doughs from white flour. The white- flour kind just grow until they run out of pizzazz and get sour, seeming to be relatively indifferent to minor variations in water=20 content and precise temperature. The trick I use is not letting the stages run out of pizzazz and get sour, until the last dough stage. Seems to work. At least for white-wheat sourdough breads. I have agreed that I do not precisely know what I mean by "sour" since I do not have a pH meter in our kitchen. I crudely attempt to measure it by taste, but degree and velocity of expansion are more practical measures of fermentation progress. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com |
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Dick Adams wrote: > > I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > No, but , in context, it is a perfectly good descriptor of the kind of flavors desirable in bread that go beyond the simple taste of "sour" The simple or primary tastes provided by the tounge are salty, sour, sweet, bitter and with some dissent, meaty and hot (spicy hot). The other senstions of taste are provided by the nose which adds the aromatic dimensions to the primary tastes. So a complex flavor can be a combination of the primary tastes or contain aromatic flavors in addtion to a primary or combination of primary tastes. My opinion is that in the discussion of sourdough bread, the focus is all to often on the single taste of sour rather than the complex combination of flavor that seperates great bread from mere sustanence. Among the complex bread flavors you can discern nutty, wheaty, yeasty, caramel, and others all mellowed by a taste sensation of richness that has often nothing to do with any fat in the recipe. These minor flavors, minor in the sense that they are not amonng the primary tastes such as salt..., are more important than how sour a loaf may be. My observation is that in sourdough or commercial yeast procedures, the minor flavors are enhanced when the dough is developed over a longer period of time at a slower pace. In other words, the flour is wet longer. In sourdough, the primary flavor of sour is enhanced when the process is extended. By extended, here I mean in the case of gluten, further along in the process of creation to eventual destruction by the results of sourdough fermentation. This may or may not involve longer periods of time. It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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>
>It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different >sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or >different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors >that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will. > >Regards, > >Charles It's more than plausible, Charles, it would be surprising if different strains of yeast and/or bacilli didn't produce differences in flavour. Look at the trouble beer brewers take to keep their cultures uncontaminated. Excessive sourness blanketing all other flavours is appetising, once or twice but rapidly palls, for me anyway. John |
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>
>It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different >sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or >different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors >that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will. > >Regards, > >Charles It's more than plausible, Charles, it would be surprising if different strains of yeast and/or bacilli didn't produce differences in flavour. Look at the trouble beer brewers take to keep their cultures uncontaminated. Excessive sourness blanketing all other flavours is appetising, once or twice but rapidly palls, for me anyway. John |
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"Charles Perry" > wrote in message = ... > [ ... ] > It is certainly at least a plausible idea that different > sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or > different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors > that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will. So would it be a plausible assumption that, should I describe a taste I have perceived as complex, you would know precisely what I meant? |
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Dick Adams wrote: > > So would it be a plausible assumption that, should I describe > a taste I have perceived as complex, you would know precisely > what I meant? I would not know exactly what flavor(s) that you were trying to describe. However, when you use the modifier "complex" in the context of the flavor of bread, I know that you are refering to the aggregate of minor flavors and/or combinations of primary tastes in low intensity and not just to an overiding taste of "sour" as the discussion is so often bound. Clearly we should be discussing taste and smell in Canine or Feline, not in English. However, I am not fluent in either and Ticker, my tutor in Feline, has given up on me. Whenever I try to talk to her in her own language she just covers her ears or hides. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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Dick Adams wrote: > > So would it be a plausible assumption that, should I describe > a taste I have perceived as complex, you would know precisely > what I meant? I would not know exactly what flavor(s) that you were trying to describe. However, when you use the modifier "complex" in the context of the flavor of bread, I know that you are refering to the aggregate of minor flavors and/or combinations of primary tastes in low intensity and not just to an overiding taste of "sour" as the discussion is so often bound. Clearly we should be discussing taste and smell in Canine or Feline, not in English. However, I am not fluent in either and Ticker, my tutor in Feline, has given up on me. Whenever I try to talk to her in her own language she just covers her ears or hides. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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"Dick Adams" writes:
<<In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks.>> I have had a fair amount of success in affecting flavor and sourness by manipulating preferments. One method that I find works particularly well is a variation of the "old dough" method. Create a starter and make your dough. Reserve a small portion of this dough to create a new starter (say 10% old dough by total starter weight). When this "new" starter is active create another dough using around 10% starter by total dough weight. If you bake this dough you will have a mild, but flavorful loaf. If you wish to have a more sour loaf, then hold this dough over until the gluten begins to break down (for starters that refrigerate well it can be held in the fridge for up to 2-3 days). Then use a large portion of this old dough (say 25% by total dough weight) to create the dough for a significantly more sour bread. Just be sure to calculate for the salt that remains in these starters when you make your dough. In essence what you will be doing is creating a cycle in which your "mild" dough is used to create both a starter for your "mild" dough, and is also aged and used as *the* starter for your "sour" dough. It's a bit of a circular pattern. And I've never created any sour bricks with this method. Trevor "Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Joe Doe" > wrote in message ... > ... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent > leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this > (early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some > flour to reinvigorate the leavening power. I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks. Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia and Carl's. > Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex. I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that I > bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone > this route. It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their cultures together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to be a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from melding. I would not be good for making that determination because nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you. -- DickA P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html appear to have become obsolete. |
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"Dick Adams" writes:
<<In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks.>> I have had a fair amount of success in affecting flavor and sourness by manipulating preferments. One method that I find works particularly well is a variation of the "old dough" method. Create a starter and make your dough. Reserve a small portion of this dough to create a new starter (say 10% old dough by total starter weight). When this "new" starter is active create another dough using around 10% starter by total dough weight. If you bake this dough you will have a mild, but flavorful loaf. If you wish to have a more sour loaf, then hold this dough over until the gluten begins to break down (for starters that refrigerate well it can be held in the fridge for up to 2-3 days). Then use a large portion of this old dough (say 25% by total dough weight) to create the dough for a significantly more sour bread. Just be sure to calculate for the salt that remains in these starters when you make your dough. In essence what you will be doing is creating a cycle in which your "mild" dough is used to create both a starter for your "mild" dough, and is also aged and used as *the* starter for your "sour" dough. It's a bit of a circular pattern. And I've never created any sour bricks with this method. Trevor "Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Joe Doe" > wrote in message ... > ... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent > leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this > (early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some > flour to reinvigorate the leavening power. I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks. Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia and Carl's. > Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex. I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that I > bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone > this route. It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their cultures together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to be a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from melding. I would not be good for making that determination because nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you. -- DickA P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html appear to have become obsolete. |
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I should also add that when you create your "sour" loaf with this method you
should use a high protein flour in order to protect against gluten degradation, otherwise your loaf will begin to tear before it is ready to be baked. Trevor "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net... > "Dick Adams" writes: > <<In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread > by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks.>> > > I have had a fair amount of success in affecting flavor and sourness by > manipulating preferments. One method that I find works particularly well > is a variation of the "old dough" method. > > Create a starter and make your dough. Reserve a small portion of this > dough to create a new starter (say 10% old dough by total starter weight). > When this "new" starter is active create another dough using around 10% > starter by total dough weight. If you bake this dough you will have a > mild, but flavorful loaf. If you wish to have a more sour loaf, then hold > this dough over until the gluten begins to break down (for starters that > refrigerate well it can be held in the fridge for up to 2-3 days). Then > use a large portion of this old dough (say 25% by total dough weight) to > create the dough for a significantly more sour bread. Just be sure to > calculate for the salt that remains in these starters when you make your > dough. > > In essence what you will be doing is creating a cycle in which your "mild" > dough is used to create both a starter for your "mild" dough, and is also > aged and used as *the* starter for your "sour" dough. It's a bit of a > circular pattern. And I've never created any sour bricks with this method. > > Trevor > > > "Dick Adams" > wrote in message > ... > > "Joe Doe" > wrote in message > ... > >> ... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent >> leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this >> (early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some >> flour to reinvigorate the leavening power. > > I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the > refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to > get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a > two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe > starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor > or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led > only to sour bricks. > > Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia > and Carl's. > >> Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex. > > I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > >> I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that I >> bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone >> this route. > > It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their > cultures > together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to > be > a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from > melding. I would not be good for making that determination because > nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an > expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you. > > -- > DickA > > P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at > http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html > appear to have become obsolete. > > |
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I should also add that when you create your "sour" loaf with this method you
should use a high protein flour in order to protect against gluten degradation, otherwise your loaf will begin to tear before it is ready to be baked. Trevor "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net... > "Dick Adams" writes: > <<In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor or acidity of the final bread > by manipulating preferments have led only to sour bricks.>> > > I have had a fair amount of success in affecting flavor and sourness by > manipulating preferments. One method that I find works particularly well > is a variation of the "old dough" method. > > Create a starter and make your dough. Reserve a small portion of this > dough to create a new starter (say 10% old dough by total starter weight). > When this "new" starter is active create another dough using around 10% > starter by total dough weight. If you bake this dough you will have a > mild, but flavorful loaf. If you wish to have a more sour loaf, then hold > this dough over until the gluten begins to break down (for starters that > refrigerate well it can be held in the fridge for up to 2-3 days). Then > use a large portion of this old dough (say 25% by total dough weight) to > create the dough for a significantly more sour bread. Just be sure to > calculate for the salt that remains in these starters when you make your > dough. > > In essence what you will be doing is creating a cycle in which your "mild" > dough is used to create both a starter for your "mild" dough, and is also > aged and used as *the* starter for your "sour" dough. It's a bit of a > circular pattern. And I've never created any sour bricks with this method. > > Trevor > > > "Dick Adams" > wrote in message > ... > > "Joe Doe" > wrote in message > ... > >> ... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent >> leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this >> (early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some >> flour to reinvigorate the leavening power. > > I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the > refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to > get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a > two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe > starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor > or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led > only to sour bricks. > > Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia > and Carl's. > >> Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex. > > I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor. > >> I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that I >> bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone >> this route. > > It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their > cultures > together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to > be > a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from > melding. I would not be good for making that determination because > nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an > expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you. > > -- > DickA > > P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at > http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html > appear to have become obsolete. > > |
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"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net... > I should also add that when you create your "sour" loaf with this = method you=20 > should use a high protein flour in order to protect against gluten=20 > degradation, otherwise your loaf will begin to tear before it is ready = to be=20 > baked. One uses high protein flour in any case. Does not seem to me to protect = against raggy dough resulting from soured preferments. Earlier this year I found something about cereal aspartic proteinases = which may be relevant, not to assume that that one is the only possibility for chewing up gluten. That is discussed in: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DVGLXb.4049$aH3.124464@bgtnsc04-new= s.ops.worldnet.att.net Can you show a photo of the bread you describe in ink.net (loaf and slice)? --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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At 08:02 AM 10/27/2004, Dick Adams wrote:
.... > The white- >flour kind just grow until they run out of pizzazz and get sour, >seeming to be relatively indifferent to minor variations in water >content and precise temperature. We'll see. I am running white flour inoculated with a rye starter (1.4 g) through the DM3 procedure for the first time. So far, looks good, smells very similar to the SF from SDI. The only detailed 3-Stage description for white flour I ran across so far was in Dan Wing's Bread Builders book. As for SD organisms deciding not to react to variations in hydration and temperature just because they grow in white flour may belong into the same basket as the alkaline starter story. Samartha remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
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At 08:02 AM 10/27/2004, Dick Adams wrote:
.... > The white- >flour kind just grow until they run out of pizzazz and get sour, >seeming to be relatively indifferent to minor variations in water >content and precise temperature. We'll see. I am running white flour inoculated with a rye starter (1.4 g) through the DM3 procedure for the first time. So far, looks good, smells very similar to the SF from SDI. The only detailed 3-Stage description for white flour I ran across so far was in Dan Wing's Bread Builders book. As for SD organisms deciding not to react to variations in hydration and temperature just because they grow in white flour may belong into the same basket as the alkaline starter story. Samartha remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
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"Samartha" > wrote in message = news:mailman.1098941950.6645.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.co= m... > At 08:02 AM 10/27/2004, Dick Adams wrote: > >The white-flour kind just grow until they run out of pizzazz and > >get sour, seeming to be relatively indifferent to minor variations=20 > >in water content and precise temperature. > ... The only detailed 3-Stage description for white flour I ran across > so far was in Dan Wing's Bread Builders book. So? Plenty of people use sequential refreshment. Here is a description of = one such: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/starter.html =20 That plus a sponge stage comes to three stages. > ... As for SD organisms deciding not to react to variations in = hydration and=20 > temperature just because they grow in white flour may belong into the = same=20 > basket as the alkaline starter story. Perhaps the Kerry-Bush exchange is destroying the lucidity of your = cognitive processes? "... Seeming to be relatively indifferent to minor variations in ..." is = not the same=20 as "not reactive to". The "alkaline starter story" is yours. I have not used the word = alkaline=20 to describe starters. Check the archive! <Not sour> is not the same=20 as <alkaline>. <Sour> refers to taste. <Alkaline> refers to the = hydronium=20 ion concentration in *suitable aqueous media*. Something like <has WMDs> is not the same as <has bad intentions>. --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough epistomologist) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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<<One uses high protein flour in any case. Does not seem to me to protect
against raggy dough resulting from soured preferments.>> I'm referring to flour with 13%-14% protein vs. 11%-12%. Don't presume that I use high protein flour in all cases. As for your experience with high protein flour not protecting from raggy dough -- I will not argue that. However, in my experience it helps significantly. And I have no pictures to show. I have not had a working oven in 2 years as my landlord has no inclination to fix it. Trevor "Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net... > I should also add that when you create your "sour" loaf with this method > you > should use a high protein flour in order to protect against gluten > degradation, otherwise your loaf will begin to tear before it is ready to > be > baked. One uses high protein flour in any case. Does not seem to me to protect against raggy dough resulting from soured preferments. Earlier this year I found something about cereal aspartic proteinases which may be relevant, not to assume that that one is the only possibility for chewing up gluten. That is discussed in: Can you show a photo of the bread you describe in ink.net (loaf and slice)? -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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<<One uses high protein flour in any case. Does not seem to me to protect
against raggy dough resulting from soured preferments.>> I'm referring to flour with 13%-14% protein vs. 11%-12%. Don't presume that I use high protein flour in all cases. As for your experience with high protein flour not protecting from raggy dough -- I will not argue that. However, in my experience it helps significantly. And I have no pictures to show. I have not had a working oven in 2 years as my landlord has no inclination to fix it. Trevor "Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net... > I should also add that when you create your "sour" loaf with this method > you > should use a high protein flour in order to protect against gluten > degradation, otherwise your loaf will begin to tear before it is ready to > be > baked. One uses high protein flour in any case. Does not seem to me to protect against raggy dough resulting from soured preferments. Earlier this year I found something about cereal aspartic proteinases which may be relevant, not to assume that that one is the only possibility for chewing up gluten. That is discussed in: Can you show a photo of the bread you describe in ink.net (loaf and slice)? -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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Dick Adams wrote:
> > Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia > and Carl's. Considering the Russians were on the West Coast as far south as Ft. Bragg/Ft. Ross in Northern California.... not such a coincidence. B/ |
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Charles Perry wrote:
> The simple or primary tastes provided by the tounge are salty, > sour, sweet, bitter and with some dissent, meaty and hot (spicy > hot). The ultimate I've never heard of. The penultimate is referred to by the Japanese as "umame." It's not 'meaty' per se, but "deeply pungent." > Among the complex bread flavors you can discern > nutty, wheaty, yeasty, caramel, and others all mellowed by a > taste sensation of richness that has often nothing to do with any > fat in the recipe. Then again, some people have taste buds that even dogs can't hear. > These minor flavors, minor in the sense that > they are not amonng the primary tastes such as salt..., are more > important than how sour a loaf may be. I'll agree. B/ > My observation is that in sourdough or commercial yeast > procedures, the minor flavors are enhanced when the dough is > developed over a longer period of time at a slower pace. In other > words, the flour is wet longer. In sourdough, the primary flavor > of sour is enhanced when the process is extended. By extended, > here I mean in the case of gluten, further along in the process > of creation to eventual destruction by the results of sourdough > fermentation. This may or may not involve longer periods of > time. > > It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different > sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or > different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors > that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will. > > Regards, > > Charles |
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The San Fancisco French Bread Co. is a combination of well known
sourdough bakeries, such a Colombo and Toscana, into one large bakery in Oakland California. They have changed their method of preparation so that the work is done by machine. They produce thousands of loaves of French bread which they ship all over the world. The regular Columbo round sourdough bread does not have the great flavor it used to have, The round loaves, which they supply to local resturants still does. I do not know how to describe this flavor, but can recognize it the minute I taste it. When ever I eat at a Bay Area resturant that serves Columbo round sourdough bread I order some. Sometimes I guess the bakery goofs and delivers the wrong bread. I can recognize it is not right on the first taste. I have eaten sourdough bread from the smaller bakeries around the area and even the one in La Brea, trying to find one that makes this flavorful bread, to no avail. I have even tried baking sourdough bread in hopes of duplicating this flavor, but have never been succesful. Ernie |
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The San Fancisco French Bread Co. is a combination of well known
sourdough bakeries, such a Colombo and Toscana, into one large bakery in Oakland California. They have changed their method of preparation so that the work is done by machine. They produce thousands of loaves of French bread which they ship all over the world. The regular Columbo round sourdough bread does not have the great flavor it used to have, The round loaves, which they supply to local resturants still does. I do not know how to describe this flavor, but can recognize it the minute I taste it. When ever I eat at a Bay Area resturant that serves Columbo round sourdough bread I order some. Sometimes I guess the bakery goofs and delivers the wrong bread. I can recognize it is not right on the first taste. I have eaten sourdough bread from the smaller bakeries around the area and even the one in La Brea, trying to find one that makes this flavorful bread, to no avail. I have even tried baking sourdough bread in hopes of duplicating this flavor, but have never been succesful. Ernie |
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:42:13 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote: > I have eaten sourdough bread from the smaller bakeries around the area >and even the one in La Brea, trying to find one that makes this flavorful >bread, to no avail. Try the bread company in Pittsburg near the railroad tracks. It's excellent. |
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:42:13 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote: > I have eaten sourdough bread from the smaller bakeries around the area >and even the one in La Brea, trying to find one that makes this flavorful >bread, to no avail. Try the bread company in Pittsburg near the railroad tracks. It's excellent. |
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You mean the Bulacan Bakery on Harbor Street?
Ernie "John G." <Grizzly@lostworld> wrote in message > > Try the bread company in Pittsburg near the railroad tracks. It's > excellent. > |
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You mean the Bulacan Bakery on Harbor Street?
Ernie "John G." <Grizzly@lostworld> wrote in message > > Try the bread company in Pittsburg near the railroad tracks. It's > excellent. > |
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