Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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Old 24-10-2004, 07:30 PM
Gary Woods
 
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Default Not all that sour

I got a start of Carl Griffith's Oregon Trail starter from the nice folks
at the web site, and it took off nicely. The bread rises quite well, using
the "world sourdough" recipe from Sourdoughs of the World.

BUT

It isn't especially sour. I've done a couple of batches now, keeping the
starter in the fridge between, and waking it up the day before. Should I
just culture the starter for a while to encourage the acid making bacteria?

Thanks,


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

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Old 26-10-2004, 03:22 AM
Dick Adams
 
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Default


"Gary Woods" =20
wrote in message ...

I got a start of Carl Griffith's Oregon Trail ... It isn't =

especially=20
sour ... Should I just culture the starter for a while to encourage=20
the acid making bacteria?


It will make sour bread as soon as it is fully activated, maybe in a day
or two at room temperature. The starter when used should not be
sour, rather active. Sourness and flavor develop during the rise.
Making dough which will sustain a long enough rise for that takes
some expertise. So does refreshing a dormant starter.

The idea that it takes a sour starter to make sour bread is=20
remarkably persistent. In fact, some people still believe it.
Perhaps a debate will follow.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html



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Old 26-10-2004, 03:45 AM
Gary Woods
 
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Default

"Dick Adams" wrote:

Making dough which will sustain a long enough rise for that takes
some expertise. So does refreshing a dormant start


Well, there's no problem with activity! The second time I used the
starter, I proofed the dough at room temp, so it rose a little slower.
Still, took just 3 hours. I refreshed the starter the day before, and it
was foaming nicely when I made the sponge in the evening to "work"
overnight.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
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Old 26-10-2004, 11:05 AM
Kenneth
 
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Default

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:45:44 GMT, Gary Woods
wrote:

The second time I used the
starter, I proofed the dough at room temp, so it rose a little slower.
Still, took just 3 hours.


Hi Gary,

When you say it "took just 3 hours" what do you mean?

Did you bake it at three hours because it looked a certain way, or
because you knew that by baking at that point you would have the type
of taste you wanted?

Generally (and other things being held the same), the longer you allow
the fermentation to continue before baking, the more sour the finished
loaf.

If you can duplicate just what you did, but instead let the loaf take
longer before the bake, you may get just the taste you want.

For pan loaves, doing that is rather easy because the pan "holds it
all together."

For hearth loaves, it is a more difficult juggle because as time goes
by and the pH goes down (making the loaf more sour), the gluten
degrades making the dough softer.

Give a longer final proof a try and let us know the results.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Old 26-10-2004, 03:57 PM
Gary Woods
 
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Kenneth wrote:

When you say it "took just 3 hours" what do you mean?


The dough had reached the top of the pan and was in danger of spilling down
the side. The recipe makes two loaves in pans. One pan is a bit larger
and heavier.... got it at a yuppie gourmet chef supply store in a
yuppie-oriented mall near Albany, NY. Despite the frou-frou ambience, they
do have nice stuff at rational prices. The pan is aluminum-coated iron.

Give a longer final proof a try and let us know the results.


I'll do that tomorrow, and report back...

Thanks!



Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G


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Old 27-10-2004, 05:30 AM
Dick Adams
 
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Default


"Joe Doe" wrote in message =
...

... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent=20
leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this=20
(early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some=20
flour to reinvigorate the leavening power.


I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the
refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to
get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a
two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe
starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor
or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led
only to sour bricks.

Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia=20
and Carl's.

Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex.


I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor.

I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that =

I=20
bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone =


this route.


It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their =
cultures
together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to =
be
a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from
melding. I would not be good for making that determination because=20
nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an =

expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you.

--
DickA

P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
appear to have become obsolete.

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Old 27-10-2004, 05:30 AM
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Joe Doe" wrote in message =
...

... Carl's starter behaves like SDI Russian - potent=20
leavening less potent flavor. Ed wood comments that because of this=20
(early peak in leavening) you need to let the dough age and add some=20
flour to reinvigorate the leavening power.


I remember Mrs. Wood saying (writing) something about letting the
refreshed starter get beyond peak and then adding some flour to
get it going again before proceeding to the dough. Then there was a
two starter method by Barb Beck, where she combined an over ripe
starter with and active one. In my hands, attempts to affect the flavor
or acidity of the final bread by manipulating preferments have led
only to sour bricks.

Several persons have mentioned the similarity between SDI Russia=20
and Carl's.

Even if I do this, the flavor is not blow your socks of complex.


I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor.

I do not have 100% confidence that I would get the same starters that =

I=20
bought 10 odd years ago if I repurchased from SDI so have not yet gone =


this route.


It would be interesting to find out. I understood that they kept their =
cultures
together in the same fridge and refreshed semiannually. There seemed to =
be
a conviction that synergy and/or symbiosis would keep the cultures from
melding. I would not be good for making that determination because=20
nothing I got from them came to life in the first place, and I am not an =

expert anyway in remembering flavors. So I am nominating you.

--
DickA

P.S. to Darrell: the Beck references at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
appear to have become obsolete.

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Old 27-10-2004, 06:55 AM
Samartha
 
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Default

At 08:22 PM 10/25/2004, Dick Adams wrote:
....


The idea that it takes a sour starter to make sour bread is
remarkably persistent. In fact, some people still believe it.


....

Sourness and flavor develop during the rise.


during 10 minutes rest:

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/

Duh!


Perhaps a debate will follow.


tssk..




remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

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Old 27-10-2004, 06:55 AM
Samartha
 
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Default

At 08:22 PM 10/25/2004, Dick Adams wrote:
....


The idea that it takes a sour starter to make sour bread is
remarkably persistent. In fact, some people still believe it.


....

Sourness and flavor develop during the rise.


during 10 minutes rest:

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/

Duh!


Perhaps a debate will follow.


tssk..




remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

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Old 27-10-2004, 03:02 PM
Dick Adams
 
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Default


In message
news:[email protected] ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om
"Samartha"

predictably took exception to my statement:

Sourness and flavor develop during the rise.


with the mention of the following linked conjectu
" Stage 1 is used to promote yeast and lactobacillus=20
multiplication, stage 2 for developing acid and stage 3=20
to develop all microorganisms." attributed to=20
Schuenemann/Treu, Technologie der Backwarenherstellung,=20
9th edition 1999, Gildebuchverlag Germany, 134
( http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/ )

and concluded as follows:

Duh!


It is exciting to discover that the microorganisms know exactly
what to do according to the number of a particular stage.

Presumably those are organisms for rye sourdough, possibly
smarter than those that do doughs from white flour. The white-
flour kind just grow until they run out of pizzazz and get sour,
seeming to be relatively indifferent to minor variations in water=20
content and precise temperature.

The trick I use is not letting the stages run out of pizzazz and get
sour, until the last dough stage. Seems to work. At least for
white-wheat sourdough breads.

I have agreed that I do not precisely know what I mean by "sour"
since I do not have a pH meter in our kitchen. I crudely attempt
to measure it by taste, but degree and velocity of expansion are
more practical measures of fermentation progress.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com



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Old 27-10-2004, 03:38 PM
Charles Perry
 
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Default



Dick Adams wrote:

I am not sure that I am ready to agree that "complex" is a flavor.

No, but , in context, it is a perfectly good descriptor of the
kind of flavors desirable in bread that go beyond the simple
taste of "sour"

The simple or primary tastes provided by the tounge are salty,
sour, sweet, bitter and with some dissent, meaty and hot (spicy
hot). The other senstions of taste are provided by the nose
which adds the aromatic dimensions to the primary tastes. So a
complex flavor can be a combination of the primary tastes or
contain aromatic flavors in addtion to a primary or combination
of primary tastes.

My opinion is that in the discussion of sourdough bread, the
focus is all to often on the single taste of sour rather than the
complex combination of flavor that seperates great bread from
mere sustanence. Among the complex bread flavors you can discern
nutty, wheaty, yeasty, caramel, and others all mellowed by a
taste sensation of richness that has often nothing to do with any
fat in the recipe. These minor flavors, minor in the sense that
they are not amonng the primary tastes such as salt..., are more
important than how sour a loaf may be.

My observation is that in sourdough or commercial yeast
procedures, the minor flavors are enhanced when the dough is
developed over a longer period of time at a slower pace. In other
words, the flour is wet longer. In sourdough, the primary flavor
of sour is enhanced when the process is extended. By extended,
here I mean in the case of gluten, further along in the process
of creation to eventual destruction by the results of sourdough
fermentation. This may or may not involve longer periods of
time.

It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different
sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or
different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors
that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
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Old 27-10-2004, 04:15 PM
Wcsjohn
 
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Default


It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different
sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or
different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors
that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will.

Regards,

Charles


It's more than plausible, Charles, it would be surprising if different strains
of yeast and/or bacilli didn't produce differences in flavour. Look at the
trouble beer brewers take to keep their cultures uncontaminated.

Excessive sourness blanketing all other flavours is appetising, once or twice
but rapidly palls, for me anyway.

John
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Old 27-10-2004, 04:15 PM
Wcsjohn
 
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Default


It is certainly at least a plausable idea that different
sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or
different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors
that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will.

Regards,

Charles


It's more than plausible, Charles, it would be surprising if different strains
of yeast and/or bacilli didn't produce differences in flavour. Look at the
trouble beer brewers take to keep their cultures uncontaminated.

Excessive sourness blanketing all other flavours is appetising, once or twice
but rapidly palls, for me anyway.

John
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Old 27-10-2004, 05:13 PM
Dick Adams
 
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Default


"Charles Perry" wrote in message =
...

[ ... ]


It is certainly at least a plausible idea that different
sourdough cultures might by way of producing different , or
different ratios, of metabolic products, produce minor flavors
that differ in kind or intensity. Complexity, if you will.


So would it be a plausible assumption that, should I describe
a taste I have perceived as complex, you would know precisely
what I meant?

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Old 27-10-2004, 06:02 PM
Charles Perry
 
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Default



Dick Adams wrote:

So would it be a plausible assumption that, should I describe
a taste I have perceived as complex, you would know precisely
what I meant?


I would not know exactly what flavor(s) that you were trying to
describe. However, when you use the modifier "complex" in the
context of the flavor of bread, I know that you are refering to
the aggregate of minor flavors and/or combinations of primary
tastes in low intensity and not just to an overiding taste of
"sour" as the discussion is so often bound.

Clearly we should be discussing taste and smell in Canine or
Feline, not in English. However, I am not fluent in either and
Ticker, my tutor in Feline, has given up on me. Whenever I try
to talk to her in her own language she just covers her ears or
hides.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


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