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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Will - Hydration alone producing gluten structure.
Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm
salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing by my usual standards<g>. I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with Pain a l'Ancienne. John |
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"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? -Mike |
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"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? -Mike |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > > The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with Pain > a l'Ancienne. > > John > I agree with Kenneth's comments regarding 30 second mix. With 8 minutes, you've already mixed more than I knead. To mix I just move the ingredients around with a wooden spoon until I have a really rough looking mass, but no flour that has not been exposed to liquids. Maybe a minute of hand mixing. The stuff in the bowl is going to be really rough and shaggy and in heaps and valleys--not mixed in the proper sense of the word at all. In order to assure even distribution of all ingredients, I stir all the dry ingredients together with a wire whisk and blend all wet ingredients, then it is just a matter of stirring the two together. Janet |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > > The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with Pain > a l'Ancienne. > > John > I agree with Kenneth's comments regarding 30 second mix. With 8 minutes, you've already mixed more than I knead. To mix I just move the ingredients around with a wooden spoon until I have a really rough looking mass, but no flour that has not been exposed to liquids. Maybe a minute of hand mixing. The stuff in the bowl is going to be really rough and shaggy and in heaps and valleys--not mixed in the proper sense of the word at all. In order to assure even distribution of all ingredients, I stir all the dry ingredients together with a wire whisk and blend all wet ingredients, then it is just a matter of stirring the two together. Janet |
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>"Wcsjohn" wrote in message ... > >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 >gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active >SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > >Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? > >-Mike > > 2 reasons, first I'm testing the ability of water alone to produce gluten structure without the low pH produced by a sourdough culture and secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. John |
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>"Wcsjohn" wrote in message ... > >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 >gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active >SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > >Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? > >-Mike > > 2 reasons, first I'm testing the ability of water alone to produce gluten structure without the low pH produced by a sourdough culture and secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. John |
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Wcsjohn wrote: > >... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. > How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the method. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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Wcsjohn wrote: > >... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. > How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the method. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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> > >Wcsjohn wrote: >> > > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style >rest. >> >How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of >incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water >mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and >only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have >to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the >method. > >Regards, > >Charles >-- >Charles Perry I just add the culture to the warmed dough and remix. If I were sure that the fridge would stop my SD culture completely, I'd add it at the start. Which is what I do with commercial yeast (but you don't want to hear about that<g>). The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as little fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. John |
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> > >Wcsjohn wrote: >> > > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style >rest. >> >How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of >incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water >mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and >only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have >to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the >method. > >Regards, > >Charles >-- >Charles Perry I just add the culture to the warmed dough and remix. If I were sure that the fridge would stop my SD culture completely, I'd add it at the start. Which is what I do with commercial yeast (but you don't want to hear about that<g>). The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as little fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. John |
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>>The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as little >>fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. >> >>John > >Hi John, > >Are you basing you interesting comments on something other than >Reinhart's description? > >I ask because his version adds the (commercial) yeast at the start. > Correct and that's the way I normally make that bread. >Why do you believe that the purpose of the cold temperatures is to >decrease fermentation? > >Thanks, > >-- >Kenneth > I don't think that's the only reason for the low temperatures but I do know, from inadvertent experiment, that a fridge rest after fermentation does not impart the characteristic deep, sweetness, thin crust and glorious colour of Pain a l'Ancienne John |
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(Wcsjohn) wrote in message >... >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. >> >> The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with >Pain >> a l'Ancienne. >> >> John > >Ok John, so how did you finish the experiment? Did you leave the glop >at 80% hydration as typical for you, or did you add more flour? And >how did it all come out? > >--Lisse  > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit understatement<g>) Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. John |
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(Wcsjohn) wrote in message >... >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. >> >> The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with >Pain >> a l'Ancienne. >> >> John > >Ok John, so how did you finish the experiment? Did you leave the glop >at 80% hydration as typical for you, or did you add more flour? And >how did it all come out? > >--Lisse > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit understatement<g>) Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. John |
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Wcsjohn wrote:
> http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg > > Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit > understatement<g>) > > Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. Loks as marvellous as you say it tastes! > I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. Yes, PLEASE! Dave |
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Wcsjohn wrote:
> http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg > > Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit > understatement<g>) > > Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. Loks as marvellous as you say it tastes! > I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. Yes, PLEASE! Dave |
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On 02 Sep 2004 17:58:44 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:
>> (Wcsjohn) wrote in message >... >>> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm >>> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >>mixing >>> by my usual standards<g>. >>> >>> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD >>> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. >>> >>> The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with >>Pain >>> a l'Ancienne. >>> >>> John >> >>Ok John, so how did you finish the experiment? Did you leave the glop >>at 80% hydration as typical for you, or did you add more flour? And >>how did it all come out? >> >>--Lisse >> > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg >http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg > >Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit >understatement<g>) > >Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. > >I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. > >John Hey John, You are making me drool...! Did you add the culture at the start (that is, before the fridge rest), or after? Thanks, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >Wcsjohn wrote: > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = style > The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = little > fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt See item #009. --- DickA |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >Wcsjohn wrote: > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = style > The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = little > fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt See item #009. --- DickA |
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> >"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> >Wcsjohn wrote: >> >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = >style > >> The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = >little >> fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. > >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: My apologies for disturbing the even tenor of your twilight years by furrowing your brow with the irritation caused by posters who, "willfully and with malice aforethought" make deliberate typographical errors to rattle your cage. I sometimes make errors and sometimes fail to correct them before they are posted. I have an excuse for that grievous sin. I am human. What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in a post written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes amongst us with your gnomic utterances? > >http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt > >See item #009. > So? Did you post that link for information, in which case "Thank you but I've read it before." or believing it somehow contradicted or refuted something I wrote about Pain a l'Ancienne, in which case "What?". >--- >DickA > |
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> >"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> >Wcsjohn wrote: >> >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = >style > >> The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = >little >> fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. > >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: My apologies for disturbing the even tenor of your twilight years by furrowing your brow with the irritation caused by posters who, "willfully and with malice aforethought" make deliberate typographical errors to rattle your cage. I sometimes make errors and sometimes fail to correct them before they are posted. I have an excuse for that grievous sin. I am human. What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in a post written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes amongst us with your gnomic utterances? > >http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt > >See item #009. > So? Did you post that link for information, in which case "Thank you but I've read it before." or believing it somehow contradicted or refuted something I wrote about Pain a l'Ancienne, in which case "What?". >--- >DickA > |
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> >"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> >Wcsjohn wrote: >> >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = >style > >> The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = >little >> fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. > >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: My apologies for disturbing the even tenor of your twilight years by furrowing your brow with the irritation caused by posters who, "willfully and with malice aforethought" make deliberate typographical errors to rattle your cage. I sometimes make errors and sometimes fail to correct them before they are posted. I have an excuse for that grievous sin. I am human. What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in a post written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes amongst us with your gnomic utterances? > >http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt > >See item #009. > So? Did you post that link for information, in which case "Thank you but I've read it before." or believing it somehow contradicted or refuted something I wrote about Pain a l'Ancienne, in which case "What?". >--- >DickA > |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: > [ ... ] > What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in = a post > written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes = amongst us with > your gnomic utterances? In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = "Gosselin technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. So far = I have gotten pretty good crumb texture in several hours from sloppy dough: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html but have not tried it with sourdough yet. Probably the neophytes = amongst you will not appreciate the suggestion that extrapolation from straight = dough to sourdough is a sane possibility. So just accept it as an = imaginational figment from my twisted gnomic mentality, and, thereupon, forget it = forthwith. One point I would like to make, in general, is that hole size is easy to = evaluate incorrectly if the are no scales included in the images that = represent it. So the holes in little dinky loaves may seem bigger than they = actually are. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: > [ ... ] > What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in = a post > written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes = amongst us with > your gnomic utterances? In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = "Gosselin technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. So far = I have gotten pretty good crumb texture in several hours from sloppy dough: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html but have not tried it with sourdough yet. Probably the neophytes = amongst you will not appreciate the suggestion that extrapolation from straight = dough to sourdough is a sane possibility. So just accept it as an = imaginational figment from my twisted gnomic mentality, and, thereupon, forget it = forthwith. One point I would like to make, in general, is that hole size is easy to = evaluate incorrectly if the are no scales included in the images that = represent it. So the holes in little dinky loaves may seem bigger than they = actually are. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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>
>"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: >> [ ... ] >> What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in = >a post >> written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes = >amongst us with >> your gnomic utterances? > >In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >"Gosselin >technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm or refute your lack of conviction. > So far = >I have >gotten pretty good crumb texture in several hours from sloppy dough: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >but have not tried it with sourdough yet Nice crumb for a quick bread. > Probably the neophytes = >amongst >you will not appreciate the suggestion that extrapolation from straight = >dough >to sourdough is a sane possibility. So just accept it as an = >imaginational >figment from my twisted gnomic mentality, and, thereupon, forget it = >forthwith. > Thank you for a fine example of a gnomic utterance. You are saying that extrapolation can be made from commercial yeast dough to sourdough, with which BTW I agree, but you say it in such an embroidered way, adding a mock deprecatory injunction to ignore your suggestion, that the meaning is lost in verbal persilage. >One point I would like to make, in general, is that hole size is easy to = > >evaluate incorrectly if the are no scales included in the images that = >represent >it. So the holes in little dinky loaves may seem bigger than they = >actually are. I agree, which is why I usually, though not always, include a tape rule in my pictures. > >--=20 >Dick Adams ><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com >___________________ >Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 >http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html > |
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>"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> >What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: >> [ ... ] >> What is your excuse for being nitpickingly rude about a minor error in = >a post >> written to impart information rather than impress the neophytes = >amongst us with >> your gnomic utterances? > >In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >"Gosselin >technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm or refute your lack of conviction. > So far = >I have >gotten pretty good crumb texture in several hours from sloppy dough: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >but have not tried it with sourdough yet Nice crumb for a quick bread. > Probably the neophytes = >amongst >you will not appreciate the suggestion that extrapolation from straight = >dough >to sourdough is a sane possibility. So just accept it as an = >imaginational >figment from my twisted gnomic mentality, and, thereupon, forget it = >forthwith. > Thank you for a fine example of a gnomic utterance. You are saying that extrapolation can be made from commercial yeast dough to sourdough, with which BTW I agree, but you say it in such an embroidered way, adding a mock deprecatory injunction to ignore your suggestion, that the meaning is lost in verbal persilage. >One point I would like to make, in general, is that hole size is easy to = > >evaluate incorrectly if the are no scales included in the images that = >represent >it. So the holes in little dinky loaves may seem bigger than they = >actually are. I agree, which is why I usually, though not always, include a tape rule in my pictures. > >--=20 >Dick Adams ><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com >___________________ >Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 >http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html > |
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Dick said: >> In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >> with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >> "Gosselin >> technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. John said: > Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm > or refute your lack of conviction. > Never happen! Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply beautiful phrase) don't chill. Will |
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Dick said: >> In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >> with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >> "Gosselin >> technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. John said: > Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm > or refute your lack of conviction. > Never happen! Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply beautiful phrase) don't chill. Will |
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Dick said: >> In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >> with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >> "Gosselin >> technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. John said: > Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm > or refute your lack of conviction. > Never happen! Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply beautiful phrase) don't chill. Will |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html > Nice crumb for a quick bread. Thanks. T'was a yeast bread. Quick breads are those risen by chemical action, as I understand it. > Thank you for a fine example of a gnomic utterance ... but you say it = in=20 > such an embroidered way, adding a mock deprecatory injunction to=20 > ignore your suggestion, that the meaning is lost in verbal persilage. Persiflage?! (with an 'f') Inasmuch as meanings are bound to get lost or mangled, it is well it=20 happens in an ornate, or otherwise entertaining, manner. "williamwaller" > admonished in message = news:mailman.26.1094415680.1141.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... with regard to my post = >Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. Actually >cheap bread machine<. It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. Kneading with a bread machine is very thorough, quite easy, and entirely appropriate to experimental quantities of dough, or even sourdough, which was=20 not a subject of my post. If one were motivated to stand aghast at=20 some such issue, my rhetorical application of yeast dough would=20 better serve.=20 > BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply > beautiful phrase) don't chill. Like the gnomic allusion, it seems to be a lame attempt at senior = bashing. =20 Neither poetic nor cogent. --- DickA |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html > Nice crumb for a quick bread. Thanks. T'was a yeast bread. Quick breads are those risen by chemical action, as I understand it. > Thank you for a fine example of a gnomic utterance ... but you say it = in=20 > such an embroidered way, adding a mock deprecatory injunction to=20 > ignore your suggestion, that the meaning is lost in verbal persilage. Persiflage?! (with an 'f') Inasmuch as meanings are bound to get lost or mangled, it is well it=20 happens in an ornate, or otherwise entertaining, manner. "williamwaller" > admonished in message = news:mailman.26.1094415680.1141.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... with regard to my post = >Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. Actually >cheap bread machine<. It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. Kneading with a bread machine is very thorough, quite easy, and entirely appropriate to experimental quantities of dough, or even sourdough, which was=20 not a subject of my post. If one were motivated to stand aghast at=20 some such issue, my rhetorical application of yeast dough would=20 better serve.=20 > BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply > beautiful phrase) don't chill. Like the gnomic allusion, it seems to be a lame attempt at senior = bashing. =20 Neither poetic nor cogent. --- DickA |
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