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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Will - Hydration alone producing gluten structure.
Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm
salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing by my usual standards<g>. I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with Pain a l'Ancienne. John |
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"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? -Mike |
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>
>"Wcsjohn" wrote in message ... > >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 >gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active >SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > >Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? > >-Mike > > 2 reasons, first I'm testing the ability of water alone to produce gluten structure without the low pH produced by a sourdough culture and secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. John |
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Wcsjohn wrote: > >... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. > How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the method. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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> > >Wcsjohn wrote: >> > > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style >rest. >> >How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of >incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water >mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and >only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have >to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the >method. > >Regards, > >Charles >-- >Charles Perry I just add the culture to the warmed dough and remix. If I were sure that the fridge would stop my SD culture completely, I'd add it at the start. Which is what I do with commercial yeast (but you don't want to hear about that<g>). The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as little fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. John |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >Wcsjohn wrote: > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = style > The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = little > fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt See item #009. --- DickA |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >Wcsjohn wrote: > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin = style > The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as = little > fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. What is it with the "l"s? 2? 3? Try one "l" (Gosselin) in a search: http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v103n006.txt See item #009. --- DickA |
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>
> > >Wcsjohn wrote: >> > > >>... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style >rest. >> >How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of >incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water >mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and >only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have >to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the >method. > >Regards, > >Charles >-- >Charles Perry I just add the culture to the warmed dough and remix. If I were sure that the fridge would stop my SD culture completely, I'd add it at the start. Which is what I do with commercial yeast (but you don't want to hear about that<g>). The important thing about the Gosselllin techique is that there is as little fermentation as possible during the fridge rest. John |
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Wcsjohn wrote: > >... secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. > How do you folks that use this method overcome the problem of incomplete mixing of the stater culture and the flour and water mix? I have tried various combinations of thickness of each and only have complete mixing when everthing is so thin that I have to add flour later which I don't think is in the spirit of the method. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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>
>"Wcsjohn" wrote in message ... > >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 >gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active >SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > >Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? > >-Mike > > 2 reasons, first I'm testing the ability of water alone to produce gluten structure without the low pH produced by a sourdough culture and secondly, I like the flavour produced by a no-yeast, Gossellin style rest. John |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > > The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with Pain > a l'Ancienne. > > John > I agree with Kenneth's comments regarding 30 second mix. With 8 minutes, you've already mixed more than I knead. To mix I just move the ingredients around with a wooden spoon until I have a really rough looking mass, but no flour that has not been exposed to liquids. Maybe a minute of hand mixing. The stuff in the bowl is going to be really rough and shaggy and in heaps and valleys--not mixed in the proper sense of the word at all. In order to assure even distribution of all ingredients, I stir all the dry ingredients together with a wire whisk and blend all wet ingredients, then it is just a matter of stirring the two together. Janet |
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>
(Wcsjohn) wrote in message >... >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. >> >> The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with >Pain >> a l'Ancienne. >> >> John > >Ok John, so how did you finish the experiment? Did you leave the glop >at 80% hydration as typical for you, or did you add more flour? And >how did it all come out? > >--Lisse  > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit understatement<g>) Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. John |
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Wcsjohn wrote:
> http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg > > Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit > understatement<g>) > > Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. Loks as marvellous as you say it tastes! > I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. Yes, PLEASE! Dave |
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Wcsjohn wrote:
> http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg > > Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit > understatement<g>) > > Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. Loks as marvellous as you say it tastes! > I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. Yes, PLEASE! Dave |
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On 02 Sep 2004 17:58:44 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:
>> (Wcsjohn) wrote in message >... >>> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm >>> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >>mixing >>> by my usual standards<g>. >>> >>> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD >>> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. >>> >>> The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with >>Pain >>> a l'Ancienne. >>> >>> John >> >>Ok John, so how did you finish the experiment? Did you leave the glop >>at 80% hydration as typical for you, or did you add more flour? And >>how did it all come out? >> >>--Lisse >> > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg >http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg > >Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit >understatement<g>) > >Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. > >I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. > >John Hey John, You are making me drool...! Did you add the culture at the start (that is, before the fridge rest), or after? Thanks, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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>
(Wcsjohn) wrote in message >... >> Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm >> salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal >mixing >> by my usual standards<g>. >> >> I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD >> culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. >> >> The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with >Pain >> a l'Ancienne. >> >> John > >Ok John, so how did you finish the experiment? Did you leave the glop >at 80% hydration as typical for you, or did you add more flour? And >how did it all come out? > >--Lisse > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102217/sdancia01.jpg http://www.zippyimages.com/files/102218/sdancia02.jpg Show the results, which are not too bad for a first attempt.(Brit understatement<g>) Taste was marvellous, deep Ancienne sweetness balanced by sourdough acidity. I made it up as I went along - details later - but this is one to keep. John |
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"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. Why are you not adding the starter when you first mix the dough? -Mike |
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Dick said: >> In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >> with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >> "Gosselin >> technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. John said: > Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm > or refute your lack of conviction. > Never happen! Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply beautiful phrase) don't chill. Will |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > Ok, I've mixed 500 gm 13.9% protein white flour with 400 gm water and 10 gm > salt until smooth, about 8 minutes at speed 1, on my Kenwood, minimal mixing > by my usual standards<g>. > > I'll leave in the fridge for 48 hours, let it warm up then add an active SD > culture, mix briefly just to distribute the culture, and see what happens. > > The fridge rest should also produce the excellent flavour associated with Pain > a l'Ancienne. > > John > I agree with Kenneth's comments regarding 30 second mix. With 8 minutes, you've already mixed more than I knead. To mix I just move the ingredients around with a wooden spoon until I have a really rough looking mass, but no flour that has not been exposed to liquids. Maybe a minute of hand mixing. The stuff in the bowl is going to be really rough and shaggy and in heaps and valleys--not mixed in the proper sense of the word at all. In order to assure even distribution of all ingredients, I stir all the dry ingredients together with a wire whisk and blend all wet ingredients, then it is just a matter of stirring the two together. Janet |
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<snip>
>> It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome >> of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. > One might indeed but one would be wrong. The temperature of a dough affects > more than the simple reaction rates of any chemical processes and > extrapolation > is a risky process when applied to complex systems such as bread dough. I have pondered the meaning of "inductive cognition" for several hours now. It has gently carried me through one of my bowls of lactose enhanced cereal (Thanks Roy), the mixing of some old dough into pizza dough and even the 30 minutes I sat and sweated profusely in the sauna. The words don't quite fit what Dick is doing... Dick has made a "conjecture". Cognition has to do with understanding. Note to newbies lurking: Bone up on epistemology before getting ripped in a list of take-no-prisoners bread advisors. And use a spell checker! Will |
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>
>>> It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome >>> of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. > >> One might indeed but one would be wrong. The temperature of a dough affects >> more than the simple reaction rates of any chemical processes and >> extrapolation >> is a risky process when applied to complex systems such as bread dough. > >I have pondered the meaning of "inductive cognition" for several hours now. >It has gently carried me through one of my bowls of lactose enhanced cereal >(Thanks Roy), the mixing of some old dough into pizza dough and even the 30 >minutes I sat and sweated profusely in the sauna. > >The words don't quite fit what Dick is doing... Dick has made a >"conjecture". Cognition has to do with understanding. > >Note to newbies lurking: Bone up on epistemology before getting ripped in a >list of take-no-prisoners bread advisors. And use a spell checker! > >Will > Spell checkers are for wimps<g> John |
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Wcsjohn wrote:
> Spell checkers are for wimps<g> > > John What the heck does Dark Matter have to do with this? Dave |
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>Wcsjohn wrote: > >> Spell checkers are for wimps<g> >> >> John >What the heck does Dark Matter have to do with this? > >Dave > "Wildly irresponsible malicious postings" not "weakly interacting massive particles"<g> John |
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>Wcsjohn wrote: > >> Spell checkers are for wimps<g> >> >> John >What the heck does Dark Matter have to do with this? > >Dave > "Wildly irresponsible malicious postings" not "weakly interacting massive particles"<g> John |
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>Wcsjohn wrote: > >> Spell checkers are for wimps<g> >> >> John >What the heck does Dark Matter have to do with this? > >Dave > "Wildly irresponsible malicious postings" not "weakly interacting massive particles"<g> John |
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Wcsjohn wrote:
> Spell checkers are for wimps<g> > > John What the heck does Dark Matter have to do with this? Dave |
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Wcsjohn wrote:
> Spell checkers are for wimps<g> > > John What the heck does Dark Matter have to do with this? Dave |
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>
>>> It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome >>> of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. > >> One might indeed but one would be wrong. The temperature of a dough affects >> more than the simple reaction rates of any chemical processes and >> extrapolation >> is a risky process when applied to complex systems such as bread dough. > >I have pondered the meaning of "inductive cognition" for several hours now. >It has gently carried me through one of my bowls of lactose enhanced cereal >(Thanks Roy), the mixing of some old dough into pizza dough and even the 30 >minutes I sat and sweated profusely in the sauna. > >The words don't quite fit what Dick is doing... Dick has made a >"conjecture". Cognition has to do with understanding. > >Note to newbies lurking: Bone up on epistemology before getting ripped in a >list of take-no-prisoners bread advisors. And use a spell checker! > >Will > Spell checkers are for wimps<g> John |
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>
>>> It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome >>> of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. > >> One might indeed but one would be wrong. The temperature of a dough affects >> more than the simple reaction rates of any chemical processes and >> extrapolation >> is a risky process when applied to complex systems such as bread dough. > >I have pondered the meaning of "inductive cognition" for several hours now. >It has gently carried me through one of my bowls of lactose enhanced cereal >(Thanks Roy), the mixing of some old dough into pizza dough and even the 30 >minutes I sat and sweated profusely in the sauna. > >The words don't quite fit what Dick is doing... Dick has made a >"conjecture". Cognition has to do with understanding. > >Note to newbies lurking: Bone up on epistemology before getting ripped in a >list of take-no-prisoners bread advisors. And use a spell checker! > >Will > Spell checkers are for wimps<g> John |
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<snip>
>> It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome >> of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. > One might indeed but one would be wrong. The temperature of a dough affects > more than the simple reaction rates of any chemical processes and > extrapolation > is a risky process when applied to complex systems such as bread dough. I have pondered the meaning of "inductive cognition" for several hours now. It has gently carried me through one of my bowls of lactose enhanced cereal (Thanks Roy), the mixing of some old dough into pizza dough and even the 30 minutes I sat and sweated profusely in the sauna. The words don't quite fit what Dick is doing... Dick has made a "conjecture". Cognition has to do with understanding. Note to newbies lurking: Bone up on epistemology before getting ripped in a list of take-no-prisoners bread advisors. And use a spell checker! Will |
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Dick said: >> In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >> with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >> "Gosselin >> technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. John said: > Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm > or refute your lack of conviction. > Never happen! Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply beautiful phrase) don't chill. Will |
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Dick said: >> In fact I did not know who Gosselin is, and was having trouble searching >> with the double "l", or triple. So now I think I know what the = >> "Gosselin >> technique" is, but remain unconviced that it is worth the wait. John said: > Well, it will only take a small investment in flour, water and time to confirm > or refute your lack of conviction. > Never happen! Read the fine print in that post. I saw the words: bread machine. BM users, even in the "tenor of their twilight years" (a simply beautiful phrase) don't chill. Will |
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<snip>
>> It was about inductive cognition. One might anticipate the outcome >> of a long, cold process via a quick warm experiment. > One might indeed but one would be wrong. The temperature of a dough affects > more than the simple reaction rates of any chemical processes and > extrapolation > is a risky process when applied to complex systems such as bread dough. I have pondered the meaning of "inductive cognition" for several hours now. It has gently carried me through one of my bowls of lactose enhanced cereal (Thanks Roy), the mixing of some old dough into pizza dough and even the 30 minutes I sat and sweated profusely in the sauna. The words don't quite fit what Dick is doing... Dick has made a "conjecture". Cognition has to do with understanding. Note to newbies lurking: Bone up on epistemology before getting ripped in a list of take-no-prisoners bread advisors. And use a spell checker! Will |
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