Hi Jason,

At 12:31 PM 8/17/2004, you wrote:

>[..]
>I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
>hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

I surely don't know for "SURE" what the full cause of your situation could
be. Only thing I know for sure that in my case, the frequent spraying of
the bread in the oven caused thin crust and not doing it with lots of hot
steam in the oven with higher temperature gives me crusts I want.

In any case, don't futz, if you don't enjoy, that makes bad bread karma and
who wants to eat bread made by unhappy bakers anyway? Who knows, maybe the
real cause of stomach ulcers is from eating bread made by unhappy bakers?

Samartha


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"jason molinari" > wrote in message =
om...

> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his=20
kitchen.)

I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DFBMv8.33991$Rw2.2561012@bgtnsc05-n=
ews.ops.worldnet.att.net

But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor=20
preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html

Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
or artisanal oven comes in very handy.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
=20

"jason molinari" > wrote in message =
om...

> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his=20
kitchen.)

I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DFBMv8.33991$Rw2.2561012@bgtnsc05-n=
ews.ops.worldnet.att.net

But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor=20
preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html

Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
or artisanal oven comes in very handy.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
=20

Try: http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Bread/Pix/

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Steve B" > wrote in message
news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?
>
> The pictures were posted on Dusty's website, the URL of which I don't
> currently have at hand. A search of the r.f.s archives should provide the
> URL, for those interested. Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of
your
> previously professed indifference to (some might even call it disdain for)
> oven preheating.
>
> - Steve Brandt
>
>

Try: http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Bread/Pix/

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Steve B" > wrote in message
news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?
>
> The pictures were posted on Dusty's website, the URL of which I don't
> currently have at hand. A search of the r.f.s archives should provide the
> URL, for those interested. Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of
your
> previously professed indifference to (some might even call it disdain for)
> oven preheating.
>
> - Steve Brandt
>
>

On 8/18/04 8:56 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "jason molinari" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
>
> One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
> commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
> re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
> understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
> both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
> kitchen.)
>
> I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
> it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
> the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
>
> .worldnet.att.net
>
> But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
> preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
> http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
>
> Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
> chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
> or artisanal oven comes in very handy.

I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:

1) too Republican

and

2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
sale. This is what they look like...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...0000DDVOY/qid=
1092838992/sr=ka-2/ref=pd_ka_2/103-3299965-9316651

On 8/18/04 8:56 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "jason molinari" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
>
> One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
> commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
> re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
> understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
> both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
> kitchen.)
>
> I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
> it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
> the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
>
> .worldnet.att.net
>
> But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
> preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
> http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
>
> Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
> chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
> or artisanal oven comes in very handy.

I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:

1) too Republican

and

2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
sale. This is what they look like...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...0000DDVOY/qid=
1092838992/sr=ka-2/ref=pd_ka_2/103-3299965-9316651

On 8/18/04 8:56 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "jason molinari" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
>
> One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
> commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
> re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
> understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
> both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
> kitchen.)
>
> I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
> it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
> the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
>
> .worldnet.att.net
>
> But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
> preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
> http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
>
> Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
> chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
> or artisanal oven comes in very handy.

I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:

1) too Republican

and

2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
sale. This is what they look like...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...0000DDVOY/qid=
1092838992/sr=ka-2/ref=pd_ka_2/103-3299965-9316651

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.7.1092839371.1141.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:
> 1) too Republican

You are a true Republican when you go to the corner store for 5 pounds
of flour in your SUV.
=20
> 2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment =
of a
> smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a =
yard
> sale ...

Not much hope for that. Most people smash 'em in the first week or two.

---
DickA

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.7.1092839371.1141.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:
> 1) too Republican

You are a true Republican when you go to the corner store for 5 pounds
of flour in your SUV.
=20
> 2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment =
of a
> smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a =
yard
> sale ...

Not much hope for that. Most people smash 'em in the first week or two.

---
DickA

Interesting the Romertopff. I have one and it tells me to always start with
a cold oven. My thought was placing a soaked non fired clay pot in a hot
oven will shatter it.
Have you done this in a hot oven?
I tried one time a loaf in it with a cold start and was not happy at all
with the result.


--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"williamwaller" > wrote in message
news:mailman.7.1092839371.1141.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> On 8/18/04 8:56 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
> >
> > "jason molinari" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
> >
> > One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
> > commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
> > re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
> > understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
> > both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
> > kitchen.)
> >
> > I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
> > it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
> > the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
> >

> > .worldnet.att.net
> >
> > But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
> > preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
> > http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
> >
> > Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
> > chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
> > or artisanal oven comes in very handy.
>
> I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:
>
> 1) too Republican
>
> and
>
> 2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
> smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
> sale. This is what they look like...
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...0000DDVOY/qid=
> 1092838992/sr=ka-2/ref=pd_ka_2/103-3299965-9316651
>
>

Interesting the Romertopff. I have one and it tells me to always start with
a cold oven. My thought was placing a soaked non fired clay pot in a hot
oven will shatter it.
Have you done this in a hot oven?
I tried one time a loaf in it with a cold start and was not happy at all
with the result.


--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"williamwaller" > wrote in message
news:mailman.7.1092839371.1141.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> On 8/18/04 8:56 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
> >
> > "jason molinari" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
> >
> > One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
> > commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
> > re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
> > understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
> > both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
> > kitchen.)
> >
> > I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
> > it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
> > the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
> >

> > .worldnet.att.net
> >
> > But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
> > preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
> > http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
> >
> > Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
> > chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
> > or artisanal oven comes in very handy.
>
> I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:
>
> 1) too Republican
>
> and
>
> 2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
> smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
> sale. This is what they look like...
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...0000DDVOY/qid=
> 1092838992/sr=ka-2/ref=pd_ka_2/103-3299965-9316651
>
>

On 8/18/04 1:23 PM, "Ron Anderson" > wrote:

> Interesting the Romertopff. I have one and it tells me to always start with
> a cold oven. My thought was placing a soaked non fired clay pot in a hot
> oven will shatter it.
> Have you done this in a hot oven?
> I tried one time a loaf in it with a cold start and was not happy at all
> with the result.
>
Ron,

The way I do it is:

1) be sure the finished bread will release. I use corn meal, if the pot is
not well seasoned it may require oil (as in lightly spread Crisco ((frankly,
lard is healthier)) + corn meal)
2) proof bread covered in pot. Do not soak pot...
3) place pot in COLD oven, set temp to 500
4) bake for about 20 minutes (this obviously depends on oven, slow oven will
be longer) by the end of 20 minutes the oven should be very hot...
5) after this initial 20 minutes, REMOVE THE TOP and bake the bread for
another 15 minutes or until the crust is well browned. I prefer mine very
dark but fine tuning will be your call...

What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
hot dry air. The finished bread will not be dense or damp. The crust may
crackle as it cools. A good sign...

As I write this, I've got two rye breads waiting to go...

Will

On 8/18/04 1:23 PM, "Ron Anderson" > wrote:

> Interesting the Romertopff. I have one and it tells me to always start with
> a cold oven. My thought was placing a soaked non fired clay pot in a hot
> oven will shatter it.
> Have you done this in a hot oven?
> I tried one time a loaf in it with a cold start and was not happy at all
> with the result.
>
Ron,

The way I do it is:

1) be sure the finished bread will release. I use corn meal, if the pot is
not well seasoned it may require oil (as in lightly spread Crisco ((frankly,
lard is healthier)) + corn meal)
2) proof bread covered in pot. Do not soak pot...
3) place pot in COLD oven, set temp to 500
4) bake for about 20 minutes (this obviously depends on oven, slow oven will
be longer) by the end of 20 minutes the oven should be very hot...
5) after this initial 20 minutes, REMOVE THE TOP and bake the bread for
another 15 minutes or until the crust is well browned. I prefer mine very
dark but fine tuning will be your call...

What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
hot dry air. The finished bread will not be dense or damp. The crust may
crackle as it cools. A good sign...

As I write this, I've got two rye breads waiting to go...

Will

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:27:44 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
>your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
>the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
>hot dry air.

Hi Will,

My comment is not to suggest that there is anything wrong with you
approach, but, assuming that I am understanding your comments
correctly, it is not "recreating" the environment of a small steam
oven at all.

In an oven with steam, the cool dough is put in the hot oven and then
steam is injected. The injection of steam allows the stored heat of
the oven to move into the surface of the loaf much more rapidly than
if the loaf were surrounded by dry air.

Your technique is analogous to putting the dough into a cold oven,
heating the oven for twenty minutes or so, and then injecting steam.

I am sure that you would agree that for the first many minutes that
the ceramic container is in the oven there is no steam created inside
because it is far too cool.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:27:44 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
>your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
>the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
>hot dry air.

Hi Will,

My comment is not to suggest that there is anything wrong with you
approach, but, assuming that I am understanding your comments
correctly, it is not "recreating" the environment of a small steam
oven at all.

In an oven with steam, the cool dough is put in the hot oven and then
steam is injected. The injection of steam allows the stored heat of
the oven to move into the surface of the loaf much more rapidly than
if the loaf were surrounded by dry air.

Your technique is analogous to putting the dough into a cold oven,
heating the oven for twenty minutes or so, and then injecting steam.

I am sure that you would agree that for the first many minutes that
the ceramic container is in the oven there is no steam created inside
because it is far too cool.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 8/18/04 4:43 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:27:44 -0500, williamwaller
> > wrote:
>
>> What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
>> your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
>> the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
>> hot dry air.
>
> Hi Will,
>
> My comment is not to suggest that there is anything wrong with you
> approach, but, assuming that I am understanding your comments
> correctly, it is not "recreating" the environment of a small steam
> oven at all.
>
> In an oven with steam, the cool dough is put in the hot oven and then
> steam is injected. The injection of steam allows the stored heat of
> the oven to move into the surface of the loaf much more rapidly than
> if the loaf were surrounded by dry air.
>
> Your technique is analogous to putting the dough into a cold oven,
> heating the oven for twenty minutes or so, and then injecting steam.
>
> I am sure that you would agree that for the first many minutes that
> the ceramic container is in the oven there is no steam created inside
> because it is far too cool.
>
> All the best,

Agreed. There is no relevant "steam" created for a while because the ceramic
pot needs to heat.

My message needs to be clarified, since I am using the word "steam" loosely.

Water vapor is being released. And the water vapor is keeping the dough's
surface moist allowing the both the dough and it's surface to develop
further. The dough begins to heat, begins to bake, without drying out on the
surface. This allows the dough to release more water and more efficiently
too, since it's not "sealed". I think of this aspect as heat conditioning. I
think the dough's interior cooks more completely when it's dry crust
formation is delayed. The interior of the crumb, for example, become more
glossy, not dull off-white.

Steam, obviously, is a specific state of water vapor. There is no rule that
says to me that "steam" is inherently better for bread than water vapor at a
different temperature. Both delay the hardening crust, both allow the bread
to outgas more thoroughly. And both convect heat into the bread. But we
know, or should, that convected energy is only surficial. Radiant energy is
what penetrates the loaves. That would be the from oven walls, the deck ,the
stone, or in my example, the sides of the clay pot. Not the steam.

Perhaps we need a physicist to address the "steam as carrier of oven energy"
issue. My infra-red sauna heats me a lot quicker than those old hot rock and
water numbers.

Will

On 8/18/04 4:43 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:27:44 -0500, williamwaller
> > wrote:
>
>> What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
>> your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
>> the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
>> hot dry air.
>
> Hi Will,
>
> My comment is not to suggest that there is anything wrong with you
> approach, but, assuming that I am understanding your comments
> correctly, it is not "recreating" the environment of a small steam
> oven at all.
>
> In an oven with steam, the cool dough is put in the hot oven and then
> steam is injected. The injection of steam allows the stored heat of
> the oven to move into the surface of the loaf much more rapidly than
> if the loaf were surrounded by dry air.
>
> Your technique is analogous to putting the dough into a cold oven,
> heating the oven for twenty minutes or so, and then injecting steam.
>
> I am sure that you would agree that for the first many minutes that
> the ceramic container is in the oven there is no steam created inside
> because it is far too cool.
>
> All the best,

Agreed. There is no relevant "steam" created for a while because the ceramic
pot needs to heat.

My message needs to be clarified, since I am using the word "steam" loosely.

Water vapor is being released. And the water vapor is keeping the dough's
surface moist allowing the both the dough and it's surface to develop
further. The dough begins to heat, begins to bake, without drying out on the
surface. This allows the dough to release more water and more efficiently
too, since it's not "sealed". I think of this aspect as heat conditioning. I
think the dough's interior cooks more completely when it's dry crust
formation is delayed. The interior of the crumb, for example, become more
glossy, not dull off-white.

Steam, obviously, is a specific state of water vapor. There is no rule that
says to me that "steam" is inherently better for bread than water vapor at a
different temperature. Both delay the hardening crust, both allow the bread
to outgas more thoroughly. And both convect heat into the bread. But we
know, or should, that convected energy is only surficial. Radiant energy is
what penetrates the loaves. That would be the from oven walls, the deck ,the
stone, or in my example, the sides of the clay pot. Not the steam.

Perhaps we need a physicist to address the "steam as carrier of oven energy"
issue. My infra-red sauna heats me a lot quicker than those old hot rock and
water numbers.

Will