I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?

jason

On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, (jason molinari)
wrote:

>I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.

Hi Jason,

Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
if you would like to know more about the method...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, (jason molinari)
wrote:

>I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.

Hi Jason,

Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
if you would like to know more about the method...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> To get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, =
and
> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> if you would like to know more about the method...

Presumably a reference to the pressure-cooker trick. Kenneth, how does
the crust obtainable with Bongard steam compare with what may be gotten
with pressure-cooker steam? (Digital photos of a slice or cut loaf =
would be=20
really good for a comparison.)

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...qdnrlnr1tv0ac=
@4ax.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...fg3v87s3lf09p=
@4ax.com

Would one who had achieved satisfaction with the pressure-cooker trick =
be advised to
further invest in a commercial, steam-fitted, bakery oven?

Many thanks in advance for your attention to this inquiry.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> To get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, =
and
> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> if you would like to know more about the method...

Presumably a reference to the pressure-cooker trick. Kenneth, how does
the crust obtainable with Bongard steam compare with what may be gotten
with pressure-cooker steam? (Digital photos of a slice or cut loaf =
would be=20
really good for a comparison.)

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...qdnrlnr1tv0ac=
@4ax.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...fg3v87s3lf09p=
@4ax.com

Would one who had achieved satisfaction with the pressure-cooker trick =
be advised to
further invest in a commercial, steam-fitted, bakery oven?

Many thanks in advance for your attention to this inquiry.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, (jason molinari)
> wrote:
>
> >I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> >well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> if you would like to know more about the method...
>
> All the best,

Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?

thanks
jason

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, (jason molinari)
> wrote:
>
> >I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> >well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> if you would like to know more about the method...
>
> All the best,

Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?

thanks
jason

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, (jason molinari)
> wrote:
>
> >I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> >well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> if you would like to know more about the method...
>
> All the best,

Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?

thanks
jason

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, jason molinari wrote:

> Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> > Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> > amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> > oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> > get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> > conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> > if you would like to know more about the method...
> >
> > All the best,
>
> Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
> steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
>
> thanks
> jason

Unles it' sin a FAQ somewhere I missed it, I'd also like ot see it, and it
would probably bee good to re-post it here, for the other newcomers.

Thanks!

Dave

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, jason molinari wrote:

> Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> > Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> > amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> > oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> > get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> > conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> > if you would like to know more about the method...
> >
> > All the best,
>
> Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
> steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
>
> thanks
> jason

Unles it' sin a FAQ somewhere I missed it, I'd also like ot see it, and it
would probably bee good to re-post it here, for the other newcomers.

Thanks!

Dave

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, jason molinari wrote:

> Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> > Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> > amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> > oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> > get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> > conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> > if you would like to know more about the method...
> >
> > All the best,
>
> Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
> steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
>
> thanks
> jason

Unles it' sin a FAQ somewhere I missed it, I'd also like ot see it, and it
would probably bee good to re-post it here, for the other newcomers.

Thanks!

Dave

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> To get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven...

Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker? In fact, it
works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
(with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).

- Steve Brandt

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> To get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven...

Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker? In fact, it
works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
(with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).

- Steve Brandt

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> To get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven...

Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker? In fact, it
works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
(with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).

- Steve Brandt

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Steve B wrote:

> works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
> full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
> (with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
> 1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
> door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
> shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).
> - Steve Brandt

To better understand this for my own kitchen, I assume you have a
"conventional" home-type oven. Gas or electric? How long do you preheat
the oven, particularly since you're heating a large box of rocks, as well?

Dave

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Steve B wrote:

> works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
> full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
> (with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
> 1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
> door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
> shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).
> - Steve Brandt

To better understand this for my own kitchen, I assume you have a
"conventional" home-type oven. Gas or electric? How long do you preheat
the oven, particularly since you're heating a large box of rocks, as well?

Dave

"Steve B" > wrote in message=20
news:Bg8Uc.21375$mD.3847@attbi_s02...

> (with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I =
toss
> 1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close =
the
> door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a =
nice,
> shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).

Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?

---
DickA

P.S. The pictures at the Yahoo Group archive are hard to get to for =
most people
because signing-up is required. www.zippyimages.com is much easier. A =
slice
image, or one of a cut loaf, is good for appreciating the crust.

"Steve B" > wrote in message=20
news:Bg8Uc.21375$mD.3847@attbi_s02...

> (with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I =
toss
> 1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close =
the
> door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a =
nice,
> shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).

Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?

---
DickA

P.S. The pictures at the Yahoo Group archive are hard to get to for =
most people
because signing-up is required. www.zippyimages.com is much easier. A =
slice
image, or one of a cut loaf, is good for appreciating the crust.

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:53:06 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote:

>Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
>ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
>water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
>shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker?

Hi Steve,

No, the Bongard, (mine and others) generates steam _outside_ the oven
by spraying water on heated steel plates.

Indeed, as you go on to say, that same technique does work as well for
the home baker.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:53:06 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote:

>Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
>ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
>water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
>shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker?

Hi Steve,

No, the Bongard, (mine and others) generates steam _outside_ the oven
by spraying water on heated steel plates.

Indeed, as you go on to say, that same technique does work as well for
the home baker.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:53:06 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote:

>Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
>ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
>water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
>shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker?

Hi Steve,

No, the Bongard, (mine and others) generates steam _outside_ the oven
by spraying water on heated steel plates.

Indeed, as you go on to say, that same technique does work as well for
the home baker.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 16 Aug 2004 12:02:20 -0700, (jason molinari)
wrote:

>Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
>> On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, (jason molinari)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>> >well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.
>>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
>> amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
>> oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
>> get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
>> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
>> if you would like to know more about the method...
>>
>> All the best,
>
>Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
>steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
>
>thanks
>jason

Hi Jason,

Here you go:

I bought a cheap (about $15) pressure cooker, and drilled a hole in
the top. I got appropriate copper fittings that allowed me to run a
tube from the cooker lid down the back of the oven, and into the vent.
Please note that I used the pressure cooker as a boiler only because
it seemed a convenient way to have a lid (with the tube) that could be
easily removed while still not leaking steam. The name "Pressure"
cooker sometimes rattles folks, but let us remember that the tube is
open at the other end so there is no pressure buildup at all.

If you need further information I will be happy to provide, but for
now, this may be enough to get you started.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

(jason molinari) wrote in message . com>...
> I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
> have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
> the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
> my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
> crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
>
> jason

Ciabatta whether made by bakers yeast, or sourdough culture requires
proper baking sequence:

Preheat the oven to 250 deg C.Mist the atmosphere with lots of steam.
Load the proofed dough on the oven floor.
1)250 degree C ( with lots of steam for crust formation) for first
5-10 minutes of baking.
2)Then reduce the heat to 225-230 deg C( to help stabilize the crust)
and bake for 20-25 minutes.
3)Finally at 200 deg C for 15 minutes ( to maintain the crust and dry
excess moisture out).
The bread will usually come out well with a thick crust that is really
stable but with a normal open crumb texture typical of ciabatta.

Roy

(jason molinari) wrote in message . com>...
> I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
> have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
> the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
> my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
> crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
>
> jason

Ciabatta whether made by bakers yeast, or sourdough culture requires
proper baking sequence:

Preheat the oven to 250 deg C.Mist the atmosphere with lots of steam.
Load the proofed dough on the oven floor.
1)250 degree C ( with lots of steam for crust formation) for first
5-10 minutes of baking.
2)Then reduce the heat to 225-230 deg C( to help stabilize the crust)
and bake for 20-25 minutes.
3)Finally at 200 deg C for 15 minutes ( to maintain the crust and dry
excess moisture out).
The bread will usually come out well with a thick crust that is really
stable but with a normal open crumb texture typical of ciabatta.

Roy

"jason molinari" > wrote in message
om...
> I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
> have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
> the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
> my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
> crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
>
> jason

Avoid doing what you did. Steaming thins crusts.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

"jason molinari" > wrote in message
om...
> I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
> have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
> the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
> my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
> well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
> crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
>
> jason

Avoid doing what you did. Steaming thins crusts.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
rea.net...
> To better understand this for my own kitchen, I assume you have a
> "conventional" home-type oven. Gas or electric? How long do you preheat
> the oven, particularly since you're heating a large box of rocks, as well?

I do, indeed, have a conventional home gas oven. The oven is preheated for
approximately 1 hour prior to the bake.

- Steve Brandt

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
rea.net...
> To better understand this for my own kitchen, I assume you have a
> "conventional" home-type oven. Gas or electric? How long do you preheat
> the oven, particularly since you're heating a large box of rocks, as well?

I do, indeed, have a conventional home gas oven. The oven is preheated for
approximately 1 hour prior to the bake.

- Steve Brandt

Jason,

at one point, I had a disgustingly thin crust for some time because I
sprayed water on top of the loafs during baking a couple of times, mostly
in the beginning. My reasoning at this point was to allow better rise by
keeping the crust soft. (Don't know if this was right, the thin crust sure
was not worth it.)

Then I figured that the effect of cooling the loafs by spraying was the
cause - I stopped it and went better - thicker crust.

Nowadays, I close the vent holes of the oven with duct tape and keep a
metal bowl with boiling water between the heat coils on the bottom
(electrical oven) during baking.

When the water gets low in the bowl, I replenish with boiling water and let
the oven heat up again; this happens between batches - one comes out, water
in, reheat the oven until max and when it's reached, next batch goes in.

The oven is so full of hot steam that I get almost burnt in the face by
opening the door and the steam comes out. There is a lot of better heat
transfer to the loafs from the steam.

I have been thinking about the external steam generation but currently,
there is no need for it. I get pretty thick crusts especially by increasing
the heat for the last 5 - 10 minutes to max temperature again to get ready
for the next batch.

Your case may be somewhat different because you have a gas oven and can't
close the vent but I think that the burning gas produces some steam as well.

I think you could benefit from using baking stones (if you don't) - 1" clay
tiles - two layers heated up with a small bowl of boiling water in a bottom
corner of your oven and no spraying could do the trick.

For what it's worth.

Samartha


At 08:48 PM 8/15/2004, you wrote:
>I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
>have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
>the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
>my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
>crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
>
>jason
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Jason,

at one point, I had a disgustingly thin crust for some time because I
sprayed water on top of the loafs during baking a couple of times, mostly
in the beginning. My reasoning at this point was to allow better rise by
keeping the crust soft. (Don't know if this was right, the thin crust sure
was not worth it.)

Then I figured that the effect of cooling the loafs by spraying was the
cause - I stopped it and went better - thicker crust.

Nowadays, I close the vent holes of the oven with duct tape and keep a
metal bowl with boiling water between the heat coils on the bottom
(electrical oven) during baking.

When the water gets low in the bowl, I replenish with boiling water and let
the oven heat up again; this happens between batches - one comes out, water
in, reheat the oven until max and when it's reached, next batch goes in.

The oven is so full of hot steam that I get almost burnt in the face by
opening the door and the steam comes out. There is a lot of better heat
transfer to the loafs from the steam.

I have been thinking about the external steam generation but currently,
there is no need for it. I get pretty thick crusts especially by increasing
the heat for the last 5 - 10 minutes to max temperature again to get ready
for the next batch.

Your case may be somewhat different because you have a gas oven and can't
close the vent but I think that the burning gas produces some steam as well.

I think you could benefit from using baking stones (if you don't) - 1" clay
tiles - two layers heated up with a small bowl of boiling water in a bottom
corner of your oven and no spraying could do the trick.

For what it's worth.

Samartha


At 08:48 PM 8/15/2004, you wrote:
>I made some sourdough ciabattas last week using Silverton's recipe. (I
>have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
>the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
>my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
>crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
>
>jason
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

> Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?

The pictures were posted on Dusty's website, the URL of which I don't
currently have at hand. A search of the r.f.s archives should provide the
URL, for those interested. Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your
previously professed indifference to (some might even call it disdain for)
oven preheating.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

> Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?

The pictures were posted on Dusty's website, the URL of which I don't
currently have at hand. A search of the r.f.s archives should provide the
URL, for those interested. Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your
previously professed indifference to (some might even call it disdain for)
oven preheating.

- Steve Brandt

"Steve B" > wrote in message=20
news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...

> Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your previously professed=20
> indifference to (some might even call it disdain for) oven preheating.

Well, when it comes to approaching energy independence, it is a step
backwards. And then, there is the matter of contaminating the =
atmosphere
with greenhouse gases ...

---
DickA

"Steve B" > wrote in message=20
news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...

> Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your previously professed=20
> indifference to (some might even call it disdain for) oven preheating.

Well, when it comes to approaching energy independence, it is a step
backwards. And then, there is the matter of contaminating the =
atmosphere
with greenhouse gases ...

---
DickA

On 8/17/04 9:30 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Steve B" > wrote in message
> news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...
>
>> Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your previously professed
>> indifference to (some might even call it disdain for) oven preheating.
>
> Well, when it comes to approaching energy independence, it is a step
> backwards. And then, there is the matter of contaminating the atmosphere
> with greenhouse gases ...
>
> ---
> DickA

At the risk of repeating the content of an earlier posting...

I found that using covered ceramic or iron pots, similar to the La Cloche
bakers, works very well. And simplifies the process. There is no need for
steaming as the dough releases all the moisture it needs for oven
development during the covered bake phase and also, no need for preheating
the oven. The stone or iron will transmit plenty of heat over the course of
the total bake. You can realize plenty of spring (if that is an objective)
and are guaranteed a wonderfully developed crust: dark, thick, chewy etc...

A typical bake schedule:
1) cold oven start, dough proofed in ceramic pot, coarse corn meal to
release (no oil for seasoned bakeware)
2) set oven to 500 F.
3) remove lids after 20 minutes.
4) remove breads after a further 15 minutes.

I was very skeptical about this method initially. It suggested "Betty
Crocker" to me. I like inverting baskets, slashing loaves and going into a
really hot oven. But it works! The principle difference between this method
and the baking stone is that the finished loaves have a shiny surface...
which typically takes a lot of waterworks to achieve.

Will



> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 8/17/04 9:30 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Steve B" > wrote in message
> news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...
>
>> Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your previously professed
>> indifference to (some might even call it disdain for) oven preheating.
>
> Well, when it comes to approaching energy independence, it is a step
> backwards. And then, there is the matter of contaminating the atmosphere
> with greenhouse gases ...
>
> ---
> DickA

At the risk of repeating the content of an earlier posting...

I found that using covered ceramic or iron pots, similar to the La Cloche
bakers, works very well. And simplifies the process. There is no need for
steaming as the dough releases all the moisture it needs for oven
development during the covered bake phase and also, no need for preheating
the oven. The stone or iron will transmit plenty of heat over the course of
the total bake. You can realize plenty of spring (if that is an objective)
and are guaranteed a wonderfully developed crust: dark, thick, chewy etc...

A typical bake schedule:
1) cold oven start, dough proofed in ceramic pot, coarse corn meal to
release (no oil for seasoned bakeware)
2) set oven to 500 F.
3) remove lids after 20 minutes.
4) remove breads after a further 15 minutes.

I was very skeptical about this method initially. It suggested "Betty
Crocker" to me. I like inverting baskets, slashing loaves and going into a
really hot oven. But it works! The principle difference between this method
and the baking stone is that the finished loaves have a shiny surface...
which typically takes a lot of waterworks to achieve.

Will



> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Thanks Samartha, i do use quarry tiles which i bake directly on, and i
did have a pan of water boiling away in the bottom (after i preheated
for 45 minutes or so at 500 deg.), and i also spritzed. Next time i'll
tyr without spritzing and just having a tray of water. If that doesn't
work i might consider a cheap pressure cooker method ala Kenneth.
I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

thanks
jason


> Jason,
>
> at one point, I had a disgustingly thin crust for some time because I
> sprayed water on top of the loafs during baking a couple of times, mostly
> in the beginning. My reasoning at this point was to allow better rise by
> keeping the crust soft. (Don't know if this was right, the thin crust sure
> was not worth it.)
>
> Then I figured that the effect of cooling the loafs by spraying was the
> cause - I stopped it and went better - thicker crust.
>
> Nowadays, I close the vent holes of the oven with duct tape and keep a
> metal bowl with boiling water between the heat coils on the bottom
> (electrical oven) during baking.
>
> When the water gets low in the bowl, I replenish with boiling water and let
> the oven heat up again; this happens between batches - one comes out, water
> in, reheat the oven until max and when it's reached, next batch goes in.
>
> The oven is so full of hot steam that I get almost burnt in the face by
> opening the door and the steam comes out. There is a lot of better heat
> transfer to the loafs from the steam.
>
> I have been thinking about the external steam generation but currently,
> there is no need for it. I get pretty thick crusts especially by increasing
> the heat for the last 5 - 10 minutes to max temperature again to get ready
> for the next batch.
>
> Your case may be somewhat different because you have a gas oven and can't
> close the vent but I think that the burning gas produces some steam as well.
>
> I think you could benefit from using baking stones (if you don't) - 1" clay
> tiles - two layers heated up with a small bowl of boiling water in a bottom
> corner of your oven and no spraying could do the trick.
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> Samartha
>
>

Thanks Samartha, i do use quarry tiles which i bake directly on, and i
did have a pan of water boiling away in the bottom (after i preheated
for 45 minutes or so at 500 deg.), and i also spritzed. Next time i'll
tyr without spritzing and just having a tray of water. If that doesn't
work i might consider a cheap pressure cooker method ala Kenneth.
I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

thanks
jason


> Jason,
>
> at one point, I had a disgustingly thin crust for some time because I
> sprayed water on top of the loafs during baking a couple of times, mostly
> in the beginning. My reasoning at this point was to allow better rise by
> keeping the crust soft. (Don't know if this was right, the thin crust sure
> was not worth it.)
>
> Then I figured that the effect of cooling the loafs by spraying was the
> cause - I stopped it and went better - thicker crust.
>
> Nowadays, I close the vent holes of the oven with duct tape and keep a
> metal bowl with boiling water between the heat coils on the bottom
> (electrical oven) during baking.
>
> When the water gets low in the bowl, I replenish with boiling water and let
> the oven heat up again; this happens between batches - one comes out, water
> in, reheat the oven until max and when it's reached, next batch goes in.
>
> The oven is so full of hot steam that I get almost burnt in the face by
> opening the door and the steam comes out. There is a lot of better heat
> transfer to the loafs from the steam.
>
> I have been thinking about the external steam generation but currently,
> there is no need for it. I get pretty thick crusts especially by increasing
> the heat for the last 5 - 10 minutes to max temperature again to get ready
> for the next batch.
>
> Your case may be somewhat different because you have a gas oven and can't
> close the vent but I think that the burning gas produces some steam as well.
>
> I think you could benefit from using baking stones (if you don't) - 1" clay
> tiles - two layers heated up with a small bowl of boiling water in a bottom
> corner of your oven and no spraying could do the trick.
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> Samartha
>
>

Thanks Samartha, i do use quarry tiles which i bake directly on, and i
did have a pan of water boiling away in the bottom (after i preheated
for 45 minutes or so at 500 deg.), and i also spritzed. Next time i'll
tyr without spritzing and just having a tray of water. If that doesn't
work i might consider a cheap pressure cooker method ala Kenneth.
I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

thanks
jason


> Jason,
>
> at one point, I had a disgustingly thin crust for some time because I
> sprayed water on top of the loafs during baking a couple of times, mostly
> in the beginning. My reasoning at this point was to allow better rise by
> keeping the crust soft. (Don't know if this was right, the thin crust sure
> was not worth it.)
>
> Then I figured that the effect of cooling the loafs by spraying was the
> cause - I stopped it and went better - thicker crust.
>
> Nowadays, I close the vent holes of the oven with duct tape and keep a
> metal bowl with boiling water between the heat coils on the bottom
> (electrical oven) during baking.
>
> When the water gets low in the bowl, I replenish with boiling water and let
> the oven heat up again; this happens between batches - one comes out, water
> in, reheat the oven until max and when it's reached, next batch goes in.
>
> The oven is so full of hot steam that I get almost burnt in the face by
> opening the door and the steam comes out. There is a lot of better heat
> transfer to the loafs from the steam.
>
> I have been thinking about the external steam generation but currently,
> there is no need for it. I get pretty thick crusts especially by increasing
> the heat for the last 5 - 10 minutes to max temperature again to get ready
> for the next batch.
>
> Your case may be somewhat different because you have a gas oven and can't
> close the vent but I think that the burning gas produces some steam as well.
>
> I think you could benefit from using baking stones (if you don't) - 1" clay
> tiles - two layers heated up with a small bowl of boiling water in a bottom
> corner of your oven and no spraying could do the trick.
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> Samartha
>
>

Hi Jason,

At 12:31 PM 8/17/2004, you wrote:

>[..]
>I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
>hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.

I surely don't know for "SURE" what the full cause of your situation could
be. Only thing I know for sure that in my case, the frequent spraying of
the bread in the oven caused thin crust and not doing it with lots of hot
steam in the oven with higher temperature gives me crusts I want.

In any case, don't futz, if you don't enjoy, that makes bad bread karma and
who wants to eat bread made by unhappy bakers anyway? Who knows, maybe the
real cause of stomach ulcers is from eating bread made by unhappy bakers?

Samartha


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address