After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.

In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
glycerine, before hand?

Many thanks for all replies.

--
Corey Richardson

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:38:27 +0100, Corey Richardson
> wrote:

>After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
>use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
>starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>
>In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
>freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
>and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
>glycerine, before hand?
>
>Many thanks for all replies.

Hi Corey,

There are many who claim that certain lactobacilli will not
survive freezing.

For that reason, I would not give it a try:

You might find that when you thaw it out you have an active
starter, but not the one you started with.

I'd suggest the "noodle" method:

Take some active starter, and add flour to it until it is
stiff. Then roll it out paper thin, and allow it to dry
overnight.

Break up the curly "chips" that will result, put some in a
plastic bag, put it in an envelope, and send it off in the
mail.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:44:17 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>I'd suggest the "noodle" method:
>
>Take some active starter, and add flour to it until it is
>stiff. Then roll it out paper thin, and allow it to dry
>overnight.
>
>Break up the curly "chips" that will result, put some in a
>plastic bag, put it in an envelope, and send it off in the
>mail.
>
>All the best,

Thanks for the reply. I think I'll store it dried in the fridge then.
Any ideas how long it would still be viable for in that form?

Regards.

--
Corey Richardson

*followup set*

Kenneth wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:38:27 +0100, Corey Richardson
> > wrote:
>
>>After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
>>use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
>>starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>>
>>In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
>>freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
>>and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
>>glycerine, before hand?
>>
>>Many thanks for all replies.
>
> Hi Corey,
>
> There are many who claim that certain lactobacilli will not
> survive freezing.

I've asked this question before and never received an answer.

> For that reason, I would not give it a try:
>
> You might find that when you thaw it out you have an active
> starter, but not the one you started with.

That might be news to the Carl's volunteers.

B/

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:18:14 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:

Please see my comments inline below...


>> Hi Corey,
>>
>> There are many who claim that certain lactobacilli will not
>> survive freezing.
>
>I've asked this question before and never received an answer.
>

What question?


>> For that reason, I would not give it a try:
>>
>> You might find that when you thaw it out you have an active
>> starter, but not the one you started with.
>
>That might be news to the Carl's volunteers.


I know nothing about how they preserve their starter, but...

Assuming that they freeze it, and assuming that it survives
perfectly, what might that tell us about the issue of
survival of frozen sourdough lactobacilli generally?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:38:27 +0100, Corey Richardson
> > wrote:
>
>>After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
>>use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
>>starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>>
>>In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
>>freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
>>and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
>>glycerine, before hand?
>>
>>Many thanks for all replies.
>

Dan Leader, in his "Local Breads," says, on page 47, "I've left sourdough
in the refrigerator for as long as three months without refreshing it, just
to see what happens. I thought that some wild yeast would still be living
in the culture, and I was right. With just one refreshment, it became
vibrant and ready to use again. If you discover an old sourdough in the
back of your refrigerator and want to nurse it back to health, stir any
liquid that has accumulated on top back into the dough and transfer it to a
clean containte. Refresh it twice a day for two to four days or until it
shows the signs of activity described on page 46."

Seems that you don't need to worry about keeping a sourodugh alive.

Barry

Corey Richardson wrote:
>
> After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
> use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
> starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>
> In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
> freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
> and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
> glycerine, before hand?
>
> Many thanks for all replies.
>
> --
> Corey Richardson

It will freeze fine, but be slow to get started again. Freeze part of it
as insurance though.

We add flour to our starter to form a dry dough and keep it in the
fridge until wanted again. Rehydrate and 'refresh' as per whatever
protocol you are using.

No glycerine needed. Some of the lactobacilli and yeast will die during
the freeze of course. However, freezing is what we did in the lab to
preserve bacterial and yeast cultures long term. The usual advice is to
freeze slowly and thaw quickly.

On 06 Aug 2009 22:18:11 GMT, Barry Harmon
> wrote:

>Kenneth > wrote in
:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:38:27 +0100, Corey Richardson
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
>>>use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
>>>starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>>>
>>>In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
>>>freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
>>>and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
>>>glycerine, before hand?
>>>
>>>Many thanks for all replies.
>>
>
>Dan Leader, in his "Local Breads," says, on page 47, "I've left sourdough
>in the refrigerator for as long as three months without refreshing it, just
>to see what happens. I thought that some wild yeast would still be living
>in the culture, and I was right. With just one refreshment, it became
>vibrant and ready to use again. If you discover an old sourdough in the
>back of your refrigerator and want to nurse it back to health, stir any
>liquid that has accumulated on top back into the dough and transfer it to a
>clean containte. Refresh it twice a day for two to four days or until it
>shows the signs of activity described on page 46."
>
>Seems that you don't need to worry about keeping a sourodugh alive.
>
>Barry

Hi Barry,

If memory serves, Leader also suggests making a sourdough
starter by adding commercial yeast. He explains that the
yeast will "attract" the wild yeasts that are in the air.

I will also add that about a year ago I forgot to refresh
some of my refrigerated starter and it was dead as a
doornail after about a month.

All the best
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article >,
Corey Richardson > wrote:

> After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
> use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
> starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>
> In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
> freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
> and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
> glycerine, before hand?
>
> Many thanks for all replies.

Mom always just refrigerated hers and "fed" it periodically to keep it
alive and happy. If you want to share some, just feed it and split off
a bit into a new, clean jar.


Don't freeze it.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein


Subscribe:

> Hi Barry,
>
> If memory serves, Leader also suggests making a sourdough
> starter by adding commercial yeast. He explains that the
> yeast will "attract" the wild yeasts that are in the air.
>
> I will also add that about a year ago I forgot to refresh
> some of my refrigerated starter and it was dead as a
> doornail after about a month.
>
> All the best

Hi Kenneth,

Yeah, in "Bread Alone," his first book, he takes the "company line" that
was current about that time about trapping yeast spores out of the air,
using a bit rof yeast to get a jump start, etc. I'm like a few of the
recipes in "Bread Alone," but it's a vastly inferior book to "Local
Breads."

In his new book, "Local Breads," he gets it right. Water and flour only.

Interestingly, Calvel, in his "Taste of Bread," uses a bit of salt and a
bit of diastatic malt in starting his sourdough and carries through on the
addition of a bit of salt with every stage of the initial development. See
pages 89-91. Since you seem to know a lot more about sourdough than I do,
I'd be interested in your take on Calvel's opinion. I tried it and got
excellent results. (Maybe luck. No, more than a "maybe." <g>)

Barry

"Corey Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> After much success with my starter, I'd like to store some for future
> use and as a reserve in case something goes wrong with my main
> starter. I'd also like to pass some on to friends and family via post.
>
> In your experience, which would be the best way to do this - dry and
> freeze? If so, how long would a sleeping starter last in the freezer
> and still be viable? Should it be mixed with an anti-freeze, say
> glycerine, before hand?
>
> Many thanks for all replies.
>
> --
> Corey Richardson

Prestone is a well known brand.

You're welcome.

On Aug 6, 7:12*pm, Kenneth > wrote:
>
> I will also add that about a year ago I forgot to refresh
> some of my refrigerated starter and it was dead as a
> doornail after about a month.

On the other hand, I've left my starter untouched in the fridge for as
long as three months with no ill effects. I would not, however,
recommend doing that as a matter of course with ones only starter;
everyone has a different balance of beasts in the mix. I guess mine do
OK with some neglect, though I do worry about the onset of antisocial
behavior in their teens...

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:12:50 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:


>I will also add that about a year ago I forgot to refresh
>some of my refrigerated starter and it was dead as a
>doornail after about a month.
>
>All the best

I have a lot of starters around, being goofy, but they are quite hardy
and do not mind being left alone for a month. I have never lost one in
that time frame.

I have certainly lost a few that have sat for 3 or more months, but
have also had great success with the majority that have escaped
detection in the back of the fridge for ridiculous lengths of time.

I consider success as obvious fermentation at the first refreshment.

The starters have distinct "personalities" even under the best of
circumstances and all things being equal, meaning they are each at
peak, they still ferment at different rates. All the AP starters are
refreshed with the same flour and all the ryes with the same flour, so
unless I am somehow doing something different or the size and shape of
the various containers comes into play, something accounts for the
differences. Wish I had access to lab tests. I'd prefer numbers to
plain old observation.

Boron

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:20:59 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:12:50 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>
>>I will also add that about a year ago I forgot to refresh
>>some of my refrigerated starter and it was dead as a
>>doornail after about a month.
>>
>>All the best
>
>I have a lot of starters around, being goofy, but they are quite hardy
>and do not mind being left alone for a month. I have never lost one in
>that time frame.
>
>I have certainly lost a few that have sat for 3 or more months, but
>have also had great success with the majority that have escaped
>detection in the back of the fridge for ridiculous lengths of time.
>
>I consider success as obvious fermentation at the first refreshment.
>
>The starters have distinct "personalities" even under the best of
>circumstances and all things being equal, meaning they are each at
>peak, they still ferment at different rates. All the AP starters are
>refreshed with the same flour and all the ryes with the same flour, so
>unless I am somehow doing something different or the size and shape of
>the various containers comes into play, something accounts for the
>differences. Wish I had access to lab tests. I'd prefer numbers to
>plain old observation.
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

One reason that I was so surprised with the loss of that one
was that it had survived longer on other occasions. Odd...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:48:20 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:20:59 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:12:50 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I will also add that about a year ago I forgot to refresh
>>>some of my refrigerated starter and it was dead as a
>>>doornail after about a month.
>>>
>>>All the best
>>
>>I have a lot of starters around, being goofy, but they are quite hardy
>>and do not mind being left alone for a month. I have never lost one in
>>that time frame.
>>
>>I have certainly lost a few that have sat for 3 or more months, but
>>have also had great success with the majority that have escaped
>>detection in the back of the fridge for ridiculous lengths of time.
>>
>>I consider success as obvious fermentation at the first refreshment.
>>
>>The starters have distinct "personalities" even under the best of
>>circumstances and all things being equal, meaning they are each at
>>peak, they still ferment at different rates. All the AP starters are
>>refreshed with the same flour and all the ryes with the same flour, so
>>unless I am somehow doing something different or the size and shape of
>>the various containers comes into play, something accounts for the
>>differences. Wish I had access to lab tests. I'd prefer numbers to
>>plain old observation.
>>
>>Boron
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>One reason that I was so surprised with the loss of that one
>was that it had survived longer on other occasions. Odd...
>
>All the best,

There could be any number of things that might affect a stored
starter, I suppose.

Since I find them easy to begin, I don't look back when one bites the
dust any more. I certainly used to when I only had one around and
would lose it to benign neglect.

In fact, I have at times, combined bits and pieces of several starters
as inoculate for a "new" one. It's always fun and the experimenting is
so cheap.

Boron

Kenneth wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:18:14 -0700, Brian Mailman
> > wrote:
>
> Please see my comments inline below...
>
>
>>> Hi Corey,
>>>
>>> There are many who claim that certain lactobacilli will not
>>> survive freezing.
>>
>>I've asked this question before and never received an answer.
>>
>
> What question?

The question I've asked, obviously.

>>> For that reason, I would not give it a try:
>>>
>>> You might find that when you thaw it out you have an active
>>> starter, but not the one you started with.
>>
>>That might be news to the Carl's volunteers.

> I know nothing about how they preserve their starter, but...

You've not read any of Dick Adams' messages regarding this issue?

B/

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 13:53:09 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:18:14 -0700, Brian Mailman
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Please see my comments inline below...
>>
>>
>>>> Hi Corey,
>>>>
>>>> There are many who claim that certain lactobacilli will not
>>>> survive freezing.
>>>
>>>I've asked this question before and never received an answer.
>>>
>>
>> What question?
>
>The question I've asked, obviously.
>
>>>> For that reason, I would not give it a try:
>>>>
>>>> You might find that when you thaw it out you have an active
>>>> starter, but not the one you started with.
>>>
>>>That might be news to the Carl's volunteers.
>
>> I know nothing about how they preserve their starter, but...
>
>You've not read any of Dick Adams' messages regarding this issue?
>
>B/

Hi Brian,

You wrote above "I've asked this question before and never
received an answer."

I did not know the question to which you referred, and so
asked "What question?"

You responded by saying "The question I've asked,
obviously."

It may be obvious to you, but I still have no idea of the
question to which you have "never received an answer."

Then, in the earlier post, I had written of the Carl's folks
that

"I know nothing about how they preserve their starter,
but...

Assuming that they freeze it, and assuming that it survives
perfectly, what might that tell us about the issue of
survival of frozen sourdough lactobacilli generally?"

For some reason, you did not quote, nor did you answer the
question I asked in that last paragraph, but you did respond
to the first part by asking "You've not read any of Dick
Adams' messages regarding this issue?"

Please believe me when I repeat that I know nothing about
how the folks that distribute Carl's starter maintain it, or
preserve it, (and if I did have that knowledge, I believe I
could somehow find the strength to own up to it.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> You wrote above "I've asked this question before and never
> received an answer."

Why, yes I have, and no, I haven't.

It's obvious to me you don't wish to explain your position on the
subject, so I'll let it go for now.

B/

On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 10:25:32 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> You wrote above "I've asked this question before and never
>> received an answer."
>
>Why, yes I have, and no, I haven't.
>
>It's obvious to me you don't wish to explain your position on the
>subject, so I'll let it go for now.
>
>B/

Hi Brian,

Here is the interchange that confuses me:

In response to Corey's comments about freezing starter, I
wrote -

>>>> Hi Corey,
>>>>
>>>> There are many who claim that certain lactobacilli will not
>>>> survive freezing.
>>>

You added just below that comment:
>>>I've asked this question before and never received an answer.
>>>
What I had written did not look to me to be a question, and
so, to understand more about what you meant, I asked:
>> What question?
>
You "answered"

>The question I've asked, obviously.

which, of course, provided nothing further by way of
clarification.

I continued in my comments to Corey:

>>>> For that reason, I would not give it a try:
>>>>
>>>> You might find that when you thaw it out you have an active
>>>> starter, but not the one you started with.
>>>

and now, for reasons that elude me, you comment about my
suggestion to Corey that:


"It's obvious to me you don't wish to explain your position
on the subject, so I'll let it go for now."

I would be happy to offer something more if I had it, but I
don't.

There is nothing beyond this: I have read frequently that
some of the lactobacilli don't survive freezing and because
of that (together with the fact that I cannot verify the
matter one way or the other myself) it makes sense to me to
use other methods for storage.

Beyond that, please feel free to "let it go" (whatever "it"
might be.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Barry Harmon" > wrote in message
. 15.254...
> Kenneth > wrote in
> :
>
> If you discover an old sourdough in the
> back of your refrigerator and want to nurse it back to health, stir any
> liquid that has accumulated on top back into the dough and transfer it to
> a
> clean containte.

I've seen this instruction in various places and it has never made sense to
me. There is probably alcohol in that liquid and I would have thought that
pouring off that fermentation product and replacing it with fresh water
would result in a more rapid revival.
Graham

Brian Mailman wrote:

.........

I am missing the original post, however I can answer a question about
starter storage.

It has been reported, and that knowledge exists in the oral tradition
that sourdough starter does not freeze well. That may be true for some
starters, but it certainly is not true for all.

Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail Sourdough Starter will freeze quite well with
no apparent change from the original after being revived from frozen
storage.

The best way to store or archive (at least Carl's) is to dry the starter
and freeze the dry start in a air tight freezer container.

Carl's starter has been dried and frozen and later revived. That
revived culture was dried again and sent to several competent culture
keepers for comparison with their culture of Carl's starter. There was
no obvious difference between the revived culture and that which had
been continuously propagated.

I have frozen dry starter from 2004. This subject was rampant sometime
that year. The 2004 culture still revives very well to culture that is
indistinguishable from current culture.

Regards,

Charles

Somewhere on teh intarwebs graham wrote:
> "Barry Harmon" > wrote in message
> . 15.254...
>> Kenneth > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> If you discover an old sourdough in the
>> back of your refrigerator and want to nurse it back to health, stir
>> any liquid that has accumulated on top back into the dough and
>> transfer it to a
>> clean containte.
>
> I've seen this instruction in various places and it has never made
> sense to me. There is probably alcohol in that liquid and I would
> have thought that pouring off that fermentation product and replacing
> it with fresh water would result in a more rapid revival.

"Pouring it off"? I'd be mixing it with coke and a couple cubes of ice. <g>

Seriously though, from my time as a winemaker; Yeast converts sugars to
alcohol at a rate of 1.8:1 (if you have 18% sugar in solution you'll end up
with 10% ethanol when it is fermented dry, all being well). Wine yeast isn't
really inhibited by the ethanol levels until it starts to reach over 13% but
will go higher (The highest naturally fermented ethanol level I've achieved
is 15.5%). 'General purpose" yeast is slowed at a bit lower concentration,
around 10%. (Note "slowed", if the fermentation is allowed to continue long
enough the yeast actually evolves, the less ethanol-tolerant beasties dying
off and the more ethanol-tolerant take their place.)

"Fortified wines" such as Sherry and Port have ethanol added to a minimum of
18% v/v. This is the level at which yeast can no longer survive (same goes
for bacteria and fungi). Which is why you can drink a bottle of port at your
leisure, say within weeks to a month (still got oxidation to worry about)
after opening rather than within days for wine.

Upshot of all my rambling? I seriously doubt that the liquid sitting on the
sourdough starter would be worth opening a bottle of Coke for, and not
likely to inhibit or stop the growth of the micro-organisms (which might
well have become alcohol tolerant if there was enough yeast-food and enough
time [fermentations are very slow at fridge temps] to produce significant
amounts of ethanol anyway.)
--
Cheers,
Shaun.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.