I use several cultures, and occasionally some stay in the refrigerator
unused for weeks. I forget to feed them, and the accumulate a lot of brown
liquid. And they have a different odor.

I can restart these, but it takes a couple of days. I just wonder whether
I'm getting the original once the restart.

Ray wrote:
> I use several cultures, and occasionally some stay in the refrigerator
> unused for weeks. I forget to feed them, and the accumulate a lot of brown
> liquid. And they have a different odor.
>
> I can restart these, but it takes a couple of days. I just wonder whether
> I'm getting the original once the restart.

I'm going to take a controversial position and say no... that when
L.B. cultures age in cold conditions they change. The various critter
populations adjust. The stuff that adapts to cold, acidic conditions
multiplies and the stuff that likes heat fades away. It's called
drift. And I've experienced it for years. My solution was to stop
keeping a bunch of different cultures. I keep the two I have at room
temperature and use them a lot. One benefit is that you more fully
realize that starter itself has considerably less impact on final
flavor than the manipulation of dough fermentation variables: aging,
retarding, using a proof box, etc. And also... the physical
manipulation of dough... as in replacing the machine with stretch and
folds, makes a flavor difference as well.

So... I'd argue for bagging the seldom used storage starters. You
never use them enough to develop (or fully understand) their
potential.

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Will > wrote:
>
>
> Ray wrote:
>> I use several cultures, and occasionally some stay in the refrigerator
>> unused for weeks. I forget to feed them, and the accumulate a lot of brown
>> liquid. And they have a different odor.
>>
>> I can restart these, but it takes a couple of days. I just wonder whether
>> I'm getting the original once the restart.
>
> I'm going to take a controversial position and say no... that when
> L.B. cultures age in cold conditions they change.

OK - then, when they get back into the "regular" environment - they
don't change back - or...
are you saying, it's a one-way road?

The question here is the remaining germ count in an old neglected
culture and if it can compete against the germs in the flour added.

I'd say, to sterilize the flour coming in in some way - sealed glass
in a steam cooker running for 4 hours should do something - would
eliminate the competition and give the remaining critters a chance.

To give a sure estimate what will grow and how to verify without bio
lab access and lots of funding is impossible and lots of
speculation/arguing on this list can happen.

Go for it!

Sam

Will wrote:
>
> Ray wrote:
>> I use several cultures, and occasionally some stay in the refrigerator
>> unused for weeks. I forget to feed them, and the accumulate a lot of brown
>> liquid. And they have a different odor.
>>
>> I can restart these, but it takes a couple of days. I just wonder whether
>> I'm getting the original once the restart.
>
> I'm going to take a controversial position and say no... that when
> L.B. cultures age in cold conditions they change. The various critter
> populations adjust. The stuff that adapts to cold, acidic conditions
> multiplies and the stuff that likes heat fades away. It's called
> drift.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inherit...red_characters

Brian Mailman wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inherit...red_characters

But... I'm not expecting inherited characteristics. I'm expecting
among a multi-species population of critters, that the ones which
thrive in cold and acidic environs to increase (via reproduction) and
the ones which need heat to die back (via not reproducing).

So it is with the refrigerator... which is why I do not keep starter
there. My view is that well balanced starters do not thrive at 35
degrees. I am sure that Acme Bakery in S.F. would never subject it's
starter to 35 F.

Will wrote:
> [..]
> So it is with the refrigerator... which is why I do not keep starter
> there. My view is that well balanced starters do not thrive at 35
> degrees.
You may be right on that - seems the metabolic rate of any organisms is
severely reduced at that temperature.
Why should they - they are put to sleep to be re-awakened.

Furthermore, the established sourdough environment - lactic-, acetic-
and other acids as well as alcohols and who knows what other
anti-bacterial defends our cherished mini-folks would have will deter
most intruders at cold temperatures and if something should thrive -
will it continue to do so at optimum SD grow temperatures?

Just go on believing it does.
> I am sure that Acme Bakery in S.F. would never subject it's
> starter to 35 F.
>
No - but leading sourdough vendors in Germany sell frozen and dried
starters.

Your experiences is one of many and when I imagine your - is it
preferred? - method of stretch and fold at a bakery producing 5-10000
first class 4 lb loafs per night doing it by replacing machines... can't
repress a giggle there.

Happy rises!

Sam

Sam wrote:
> ... they are put to sleep to be re-awakened.

This is the part that I no longer subscribe to... that cold acts as a
benign preservative, that the culture simple goes dornant. I think the
cold skews it to yeasts and less to L.B.'s. In my case, I had
something like 6 starters: rye, red wheat, white wheat, one from King
Arthur, one from Kenneth, one from kamut even. Even with decent
rotation, I was using each every third week.

It was you who suggested that I focus on one starter and develop it's
potential instead of micky-mousing with old ones. You were right. It
was good advice.

> No - but leading sourdough vendors in Germany sell frozen and dried
> starters.

And I'd bet those clever Germans are equipped to the hilt and taking
all manner of data with very expensive instruments to ensure that what
they produce is what is intended. I'd be amazed to find hootch in
professional sourdough lab.

> ...stretch and fold at a bakery producing 5-10000
> first class 4 lb loafs per night doing it by replacing machines... can't
> repress a giggle there.

True enough.... on the other hand, those bakers wouldn't fire up a
$10,000 mixer for the 3 loaves I typically make either. I think it was
Vincent (baker in England) who wrote once that only lazy Americans
would use a machine for 5 or 6 pounds of dough.

Also... I've swtiched to low protein AP flour. Can't machine it, turns
to soup... so I have to baby it.

Will wrote:
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inherit...red_characters
>
> But... I'm not expecting inherited characteristics. I'm expecting
> among a multi-species population of critters, that the ones which
> thrive in cold and acidic environs to increase (via reproduction) and
> the ones which need heat to die back (via not reproducing).

Ah, ok. You're positing the oft misunderstood 'survival of the fittest'
as accelerated because of the fast reproductive cycles.
>
> So it is with the refrigerator... which is why I do not keep starter
> there. My view is that well balanced starters do not thrive at 35
> degrees.

38 is the standard recommended refrigerator temps.

If commercially yeasted doughs rise at 38 degrees, I don't understand
why sourdough cultures which are much more hardy would not survive.

Mine does quite nicely, and there are periods where I'm not sourdough
baking for weeks at a time.

> I am sure that Acme Bakery in S.F. would never subject it's
> starter to 35 F.

I'm sure the Acme Bakery (and I believe it's over on the Continent in
either Oakland or Berkeley, not here in SF) doesn't refrigerate its
starter at all, since it's in constant and continual use.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:

> Ah, ok. You're positing the oft misunderstood 'survival of the fittest'
> as accelerated because of the fast reproductive cycles.

Well... I said higher up in the thread my response would be
controversial.
Seems to me, the "operating" environment for S.D. cultures is pretty
well established.

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616

> If commercially yeasted doughs rise at 38 degrees, I don't understand
> why sourdough cultures which are much more hardy would not survive.

I didn't say they would not survive, I said they would drift. My
experience with cultures stored in the refrigerator suggests they are
less good than cultures stored 30 degrees F. warmer. YMMV.

> I'm sure the Acme Bakery (and I believe it's over on the Continent in
> either Oakland or Berkeley, not here in SF) doesn't refrigerate its
> starter at all, since it's in constant and continual use.

As is mine... :-)

Will wrote:
> Sam wrote:
>
>> ... they are put to sleep to be re-awakened.
>>
>
> This is the part that I no longer subscribe to... that cold acts as a
> benign preservative, that the culture simple goes dornant. I think the
> cold skews it to yeasts and less to L.B.'s. In my case, I had
> something like 6 starters: rye, red wheat, white wheat, one from King
> Arthur, one from Kenneth, one from kamut even. Even with decent
> rotation, I was using each every third week.
>
> It was you who suggested that I focus on one starter and develop it's
> potential instead of micky-mousing with old ones. You were right. It
> was good advice.
>
>
That's not the point as far as I am concerned. You think there is
selection of one SD critter over another based on temperature when you
store them in a fridge and/or "something else" may take over.

please look at those lines:

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#061
http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#066

both are growth rates for a researched LB and yeast.

the LB has 0 growth rate at 4C - that's 40 F - I don't expect to grow
something below that temperature either
the yeas has 0 growth rate at 8 C - that's 48 F - I don't expect to grow
something below that temperature either

The fridge temperatures which have come up here are 35 F - below the 0
growth temperatures above.

I don't think you can have a selection/promotion of organisms by
temperature when nothing grows.

Your other point that "something else" grows in the fridge:

Why would "something else" grow at low temperature when "nothing else"
grows at decent growth temperatures outside the fridge and lots of germs
added with flour?
The deterrents - as I wrote before - don't just go away by cooling .

There may be a cooling period, where a starter put in the fridge starts
cooling down and some change of proportions may happen - who knows.

The effect of this will be factored in into your result when you do the
same routine over and over again - putting a ready starter into the
fridge, take it out, run it through the same stages and put a sample back.

What you are seeing in different behavior/results with your starter is
probably because you use a different routine and maybe have a more vital
starter with this.

In your initial answer post, you stated:
> The various critter
> populations adjust. The stuff that adapts to cold, acidic conditions
> multiplies and the stuff that likes heat fades away.
I still think that nothing much changes nor anything "fading" away in a
fridge storage of up to 2 month. And should there be a minor change
while cooling down - that's eliminated by factoring it into the routine.
If the germ counts are reduced by longer storage, it just will take
longer to get them back.

As long as both methods make good bread, who cares?

Sam

On Nov 11, 4:26 pm, Sam > wrote:

> That's not the point as far as I am concerned. You think there is
> selection of one SD critter over another based on temperature when you
> store them in a fridge and/or "something else" may take over.

Actually, Sam, I do not think that anything extrinsic to the culture
grows. So there's nothing "new" happening, nothing else is taking
over. Just shifts among critter populations already there.

The Woods stuff is excellent.

> The effect of this will be factored in into your result when you do the
> same routine over and over again - putting a ready starter into the
> fridge, take it out, run it through the same stages and put a sample back.

Yes... I think there's a lot of truth to this. One's maintenance
routine hugely affects the culture. I always felt that the critters
shifted when cooling or warming, not when they were chilled into
senescence. And I speculated that the repeated time spent betweeen say
45 F. and 60 F. was when the LB's lost ground and the yeasts gained
ground. But that was, of course, speculation as I lack the instruments
to verify anything. Mostly I've been trying to frame a reason for why
the countertop culture was always better than the refrigerator
culture.

> As long as both methods make good bread, who cares?

I guess my answer is that I believe the countertop culture is better
than cold culture. I note that you are a big Detmold practicioner.
Someday, I'll probably do that too. And when I discover that
everything you've said about Detmold is true, I'll wonder why I was so
lazy for so long.

Will wrote:
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>> Ah, ok. You're positing the oft misunderstood 'survival of the fittest'
>> as accelerated because of the fast reproductive cycles.
>
> Well... I said higher up in the thread my response would be
> controversial.

It's not controversial.... that SotF is not a determinant but a pressure
is pretty much established.

>> If commercially yeasted doughs rise at 38 degrees, I don't understand
>> why sourdough cultures which are much more hardy would not survive.
>
> I didn't say they would not survive, I said they would drift.

Your theory of "drift" is based on non-survival of some, which
implies--actually rather demands, survival of others.

Or else we're back to LaMarckism?

> My experience with cultures stored in the refrigerator suggests they are
> less good than cultures stored 30 degrees F. warmer. YMMV.

What is "less good?"

Have you reproduced those results with another operator (i.e., someone
else) or have you considered a certain ... er ... ummm.... style of
technique could be the cause of your results?

B/

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:28:08 -0800 (PST), Will
> wrote:

>On Nov 11, 4:26 pm, Sam > wrote:
>
>> That's not the point as far as I am concerned. You think there is
>> selection of one SD critter over another based on temperature when you
>> store them in a fridge and/or "something else" may take over.
>
>Actually, Sam, I do not think that anything extrinsic to the culture
>grows. So there's nothing "new" happening, nothing else is taking
>over. Just shifts among critter populations already there.
>
>The Woods stuff is excellent.
>
>> The effect of this will be factored in into your result when you do the
>> same routine over and over again - putting a ready starter into the
>> fridge, take it out, run it through the same stages and put a sample back.
>
>Yes... I think there's a lot of truth to this. One's maintenance
>routine hugely affects the culture. I always felt that the critters
>shifted when cooling or warming, not when they were chilled into
>senescence. And I speculated that the repeated time spent betweeen say
>45 F. and 60 F. was when the LB's lost ground and the yeasts gained
>ground. But that was, of course, speculation as I lack the instruments
>to verify anything. Mostly I've been trying to frame a reason for why
>the countertop culture was always better than the refrigerator
>culture.
>
>> As long as both methods make good bread, who cares?
>
>I guess my answer is that I believe the countertop culture is better
>than cold culture. I note that you are a big Detmold practicioner.
>Someday, I'll probably do that too. And when I discover that
>everything you've said about Detmold is true, I'll wonder why I was so
>lazy for so long.
>
I have a bunch of starters, some wheat flour, some rye, some a mix of
both. They all live in the fridge unless I am refreshing them either
to bake or return to the fridge. They are distinct by smell, speed of
rise, types of bread they are best with.

They refresh true and distinct.

Go figure.

Boron

It isn't as if I
>
>

On Nov 12, 6:43 am, Boron Elgar > wrote:

> I have a bunch of starters, some wheat flour, some rye, some a mix of
> both. They all live in the fridge unless I am refreshing them either
> to bake or return to the fridge. They are distinct by smell, speed of
> rise, types of bread they are best with.
>
> They refresh true and distinct.
>

My refrigerated starters were similarly distinct. The red wheat never
smelled or behaved like the rye, for example. But the red wheat
changed over time. When I first made it up, it was what I'll call
"snappy", had the cider-smell, had that crisp acid finish in the baked
bread. Six months up the road... cider-smell very diminished. This
bothered me, as I use my nose for data gathering, following the bulk
dough ferment along and so forth. I'm a big advocate of "ripe" dough.
Ripe has a signature smell.

To get back to the OP... My thoughts were really more maintenance
oriented. That when one's starters are covered with hinky-dink and
aren't used for weeks, it might be better if one weeded the rarely
used ones out and really worked on keeping one or two starters in tip-
top shape. My experience suggests that what I do with the inoculated
dough is significantly more relevant to the finished bread than the
starter I start with. Plus... doing 8 levels of refreshment to get
back to square one is not as exciting as it was years ago when sour
culture was still a novelty.

An aside... bought some hard white last week. Bagels are way
overdue...

On Nov 12, 12:04 am, Brian Mailman > wrote:

> Your theory of "drift" is based on non-survival of some, which
> implies--actually rather demands, survival of others.

Not exactly. It's not like every critter in population X of the yeast
side dies. But if those X yeasts drop from being 30% of the culture to
5%, and other critters expand... that's drift. This suggests that at
every temperature and hydration and acid gradient a different
population ecology exists.

Which also suggests that one can usually restore the original
status... if one is willing to do extended refreshment cycles at
higher temperature. I suppose the issue is how many refreshment cycles
are worth it? What is the level of effort before diminishing returns?

My original post suggested focusing less on recovering old starters
and more on developing a good dough... that's where I believe the
efficiency and results are.
Another way to say it is... if you bake once a month, why on earth
would you have 4 or 5 starters?

> Have you reproduced those results with another operator (i.e., someone
> else) or have you considered a certain ... er ... ummm.... style of
> technique could be the cause of your results?

Good points. I am certain that my style and my technique define my
results. If they didn't I'd quit. My technique is intolerant of old
starter for pedigree's sake.

Will wrote:
> Plus... doing 8 levels of refreshment to get
> back to square one
>
>
What were you doing with your "fridge" method?

Sam

Will wrote:
> [..]
> Which also suggests that one can usually restore the original
> status... if one is willing to do extended refreshment cycles at
> higher temperature.

For chrissake!

Step 1: With a ready starter:

Take out 35 g and put into a new 1/2 cup sterilized container, label it
and put it in the fridge. Make bread with the remaining fresh starter.

When you want to make bread again - maybe next week or in two month?

From the last container in the fridge, take out - whatever is needed 6,
12, 20 g, put leftover back in fridge, recycle oldest container content
and do Detmold 3-Stage with the starter taken out.

Go to Step 1.


Where is your "extended refreshment cycles" and the "one can usually..."

Compared to whatever I did before - this has by far the least overhead
in starter maintenance, it is well defined and takes out a lot of the
randomness involved in this game.

The main factors - temperature and time are controlled and known in
every step of this loop. Compare this to a kitchen-counter top
continuous propagation which you seem to prefer and it will come out short.

And - as for your idea that starter does not so much influence final
bread characteristics:

If your starter is a little bit too "ripe" and lame by the time you make
bread, you can to nothing in the remaining bread making steps to make up
for it again.

Sam

On Nov 12, 8:56 am, Sam > wrote:
> Will wrote:
> > Plus... doing 8 levels of refreshment to get
> > back to square one
>
> What were you doing with your "fridge" method?
>
> Sam


Nothing unusual. After refreshment, when the starter was active, I'd
add sufficient new flour (of whatever type was consistent for the
starter: rye to rye, red wheat to red wheat, etc) make a small dough-
ball, size of walnut, and store in clean glass lab jar, in the
refrigerator... on the door. Starters all labelled and numbered for
sequential use.

When I had 6 starters, I'd rotate in sequence, always using the oldest
first. I bake 2-3 times a week (hungry teenagers), so the starters
might sit idle for 2 weeks, sometimes three. They always worked,
always proofed the dough, and so on... but like I said up-thread, the
smell changed. And I'm a dedicated dough sniffer. So I suspected
critter drift.

For fun, I put a couple of dupes away for several months (in firm
dough-ball form). They survived. And that's what I'd do if I was going
to South America for longish time.

Your advice several years ago was to focus on the dough-side... and
after some reflection I decided to go that route. So rather than
maintain a family of starters, I reduced to 2... divorced the dough
hook and went native... shelf storage for starters, long ferments for
dough, s&f's for crumb.

Very recently I switched to really CHEAP AP flour. My favorite, Dakota
Maid, had risen from $.79 for 5 pounds to $3.29 for 5 pounds. I
decided it might be time to learn what the typical European
experiences with weak protein levels. And I gotta say... it takes a
big adjustment. Generic store brand AP is really for cake or biscuits.
Getting that to gas correctly for decent crumb takes real doing. It's
an experiment I'd highly recommend to everyone here. And it's a
humbling experience... I didn't know the half of it.

Will wrote:
> [..]
>
> Nothing unusual. After refreshment, when the starter was active, I'd
> add sufficient new flour (of whatever type was consistent for the
> starter: rye to rye, red wheat to red wheat, etc) make a small dough-
> ball, size of walnut, and store in clean glass lab jar, in the
> refrigerator... on the door. Starters all labelled and numbered for
> sequential use.
>
> When I had 6 starters, I'd rotate in sequence, always using the oldest
> first. I bake 2-3 times a week (hungry teenagers), so the starters
> might sit idle for 2 weeks, sometimes three. They always worked,
> always proofed the dough, and so on... but like I said up-thread, the
> smell changed. And I'm a dedicated dough sniffer. So I suspected
> critter drift.
>
OK - you said also:

> But the red wheat
> changed over time. When I first made it up...
So - the one where you recognized a change was the one you "made up" at
one point and it was changing over time.
That could be a normal occurrence.

With your frequency of baking, I'd probably do something similar, where
a starter is kept warm and fed continuously.
But my situation is different, so it does not happen. Now I understand
better what you are doing and where you are coming from.
Thanks for explaining.

Hm - going in flour price from $ .16 to $ .69 a pound is a bummer. I've
seen a bit more than doubling - $ .30 to $ .70 and it came down a
little recently.
If food prices rise in any way similar...

What did not make sense was your general assumption that keeping a
starter in the fridge will make it "drift".

Congrats to your low-gluten experience. No time to play theses days...

Sam

On Nov 12, 10:51 am, Sam >
wrote:

> So - the one where you recognized a change was the one you "made up" at
> one point and it was changing over time.
> That could be a normal occurrence.

Yes. My practice has been make a starter from my newest sack of wheat
or rye. Call it the freshness and purity test. If the new bag makes a
good starter, I feel better about the quality and the vigor of the
grain. I figure it hasn't been sprayed, gassed or poorly stored. I
think the idea was suggested in the Scott and Wing book.

> Hm - going in flour price from $ .16 to $ .69 a pound is a bummer. I've
> seen a bit more than doubling - $ .30 to $ .70 and it came down a
> little recently.

Well... I knew the price for the Dakota Maid was da bomb at $.79. I
used King Arthur when I lived in New England, liked it, and realized
the DM was even better flour. But when it went through the roof, I got
a bit concerned. The price of my Wheat Montana 50 pounders had
recently doubled. So I thought, for curiosity's sake, to try the very
cheapest stuff on the grocery shelf. And I kept bombing with it. I'm
stubborn. So I kept buying and trying. It took about 20 bags to get it
half-way right.

Those bakers in Europe using soft, weak, wheat are really, really,
good.

Will wrote:
> On Nov 12, 12:04 am, Brian Mailman > wrote:
>
>> Your theory of "drift" is based on non-survival of some, which
>> implies--actually rather demands, survival of others.
>
> Not exactly. It's not like every critter in population X of the yeast
> side dies. But if those X yeasts drop from being 30% of the culture to
> 5%, and other critters expand... that's drift. This suggests that at
> every temperature and hydration and acid gradient a different
> population ecology exists.

So, more succinctly put.... "some critters die and others live."

Which actually says "some critters survive."

> My original post suggested focusing less on recovering old starters
> and more on developing a good dough... that's where I believe the
> efficiency and results are.

Your original post suggested LaMarckism.

B/

On Nov 12, 2:21 pm, Brian Mailman > wrote:

> Your original post suggested LaMarckism.

I reread what I wrote and I see how you could go there. It wasn't my
intention to go there. My use of the word "adapt" was imprecise. I
should have said something like:

The stuff that <responds> to cold, acidic conditions...

My bad.

On Nov 12, 10:45*am, Will > wrote:

> Very recently I switched to really CHEAP AP flour. My favorite, Dakota
> Maid, had risen from $.79 for 5 pounds to $3.29 for 5 pounds. I
> decided it might be time to learn what the typical European
> experiences with weak protein levels. And I gotta say... it takes a
> big adjustment. Generic store brand AP is really for cake or biscuits.
> Getting that to gas correctly for decent crumb takes real doing. It's
> an experiment I'd highly recommend to everyone here. And it's a
> humbling experience... I didn't know the half of it.

I'm curious what you think my adjustment might be if I switch to AP
flour. Here is my routine for a decent-sized (10-12" diameter x 5"
high in the middle round loaf):
Rye starter, 1/2 to 2/3 by proportion Hodgson rye flour and the rest
KA bread flour, plus 1tbs salt. I start with just a little water and a
couple small scoops of starter. That rests by my oven light for 24
hours. I then add water, the flours, salt, mix, rest and knead by
hand. 8 to 10 hours later I give it a quick knead, then let it rest an
hour or two so before firing up the oven. I bake on a stone at 500F
with a small crock of water in the bottom of the oven (measured temp
usually doesn't make it past 470F).
All timing is planned around my weekday work routine.
Thanks,
Matt

On Nov 13, 8:31 am, Matt Fitz > wrote:

> I'm curious what you think my adjustment might be if I switch to AP
> flour.

Probably very little if you continue with AP from King Arthur or you
shift to Gold Medal or Pillsbury unbleached AP. Good AP still runs at
4% protein. My guess is that Bread Flour and AP flour mostly differ in
the starch layer (of the grain seed) that is used. The layer's
characteristics vary moving from husk to germ.

If you choose the cheapest AP flour in the grocery, you move to 3%
protein and the flour is typically bleached. I think it is the
bleaching that makes things difficult. I read in Beranbaum's pastry
book that bleached flour is more extensible but less elastic... which
is helpful for things like puff pastry (and pizza), but not so much
for bread.

Anyway... to get to the point... what I found was that I needed to be
particularly careful in final proofing. I'd been using a proof box w/
hot pad... and low-life flour, or gluten-deficient flour (if you
prefer) is very sensitive to heat. The dough would rise nicely but
tear badly when baked. Scoring/docking were not effective. This
suggested that the dough was over-proofed where it encountered the
most heat, i.e.: the bottom of the brotforms, which, when inverted,
for baking, put the weak area on top. I resolved this issue by
reducing the hot pad temperature by 50%. So a longer, but less forced,
finish proof.

The other issue is handling. Really weak flour does not develop gluten
easily so you must leverage whatever you get. This means stretching
and folding to laminate the gluten sheets. Kneading won't do it. So...
a long cool bulk proof (overnight) to hydrolize the flour, and gently
develop the available gluten, and then a series of stretch and
folds... at least 3, well spaced. More is better... The dough handles
the S&F's really well (it is extensible, not elastic). And you can SEE
the sheeting. This is neat and really instructive.

My take-away was three fold... One, I definitely improved my dough
handling and shaping skill. Folding techniques are not simply the
stuff of boutique cook-books. They are real-life, tangible, functional
skills. You really affect structure with good dough handling. And you
really learn this lesson using crummy flour.

Two... I gained an immense appreciation for the miller's art. I used
to give lip service to good flour, not fully appreciating the
tremendous cushion that high quality milling provides. KA based dough
rises well even when technique is slip-shod. A little kneading, a hot
oven... shazam. Beautiful bread.

Three... the finished flavor of good flour and cheap flour is same-
same. I did not expect this. I assumed good flour would taste better.
Not so. Good flour is much easier to use from a bread building
persepctive but flavor is most definitely a fermenting and ripening
issue.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:31:22 -0800 (PST), Matt Fitz
> wrote:

>I bake on a stone at 500F
>with a small crock of water in the bottom of the oven (measured temp
>usually doesn't make it past 470F).

Hi Matt,

One reason that you can't get it hotter than 470F is that a
ton of energy is wasted boiling off that water.

If you are interested, I can suggest ways of boiling the
water for steam outside of the oven itself.

With that approach, the energy will go into the bread,
rather than into the steam generation.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Nov 13, 12:50*pm, Kenneth >
wrote:

> If you are interested, I can suggest ways of boiling the
> water for steam outside of the oven itself.

Sure, I'll take suggestions.

Will wrote:
> On Nov 13, 8:31 am, Matt Fitz > wrote:
>
>> I'm curious what you think my adjustment might be if I switch to AP
>> flour.
>
> Probably very little if you continue with AP from King Arthur or you
> shift to Gold Medal or Pillsbury unbleached AP. Good AP still runs at
> 4% protein. My guess is that Bread Flour and AP flour mostly differ in
> the starch layer (of the grain seed) that is used. The layer's
> characteristics vary moving from husk to germ.
>
> If you choose the cheapest AP flour in the grocery, you move to 3%
> protein and the flour is typically bleached.

I am up in Canada and find 'totally' different numbers in All Purpose
'wheat' flours.

I have used Five Roses brand AP and a 'generic' store brand 'Equality'
AP flour in both bleached and unbleached forms, and all of these,
according to their labels, have 4 grams of protein per 30 grams of flour
or a whopping 13.33%!

That is WAY off your numbers, like not even from the same type of plant.....

My starter stores very well in the fridge and is really consistent for
behavior. If I leave it too long, it develops hooch on top that can be
stirred back in during refresh. I once poured it off even. My
starter's 'taste' effect hasn't changed over the last couple years.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Nov 14, 9:23 am, Mike Romain > wrote:

> I am up in Canada and find 'totally' different numbers in All Purpose
> 'wheat' flours.

I'm not surprised. When I moved to the upper mid-west, I had never
seen Dakota Maid flour. It's a regional distribution. Nor was I
impressed by the price. It was the dirt-cheapest flour in the grocery.
But one day I noticed that all the Dakota Maid bags were date stamped.
Not with a use-by, but a real packaged-on date. And... I noticed the
package date was 2 weeks old. So I thought what-the-heck and bought a
bag. That was the end of King Arthur. The cheapest flour I'd ever seen
turned out to be the highest quality I'd ever used. Sometimes you get
lucky. Or live where the great flour is cheap.

> My starter stores very well in the fridge and is really consistent for
> behavior. If I leave it too long, it develops hooch on top that can be
> stirred back in during refresh. I once poured it off even. My
> starter's 'taste' effect hasn't changed over the last couple years.

I suggest you get some fresh wheat or rye berries and make a starter.
It's an easy thing to do. Smell it carefully. Compare it to your
refrigerator stock.

Will wrote:
>
>> .. My
>> starter's 'taste' effect hasn't changed over the last couple years.
>>
>
> I suggest you get some fresh wheat or rye berries and make a starter.
> It's an easy thing to do. Smell it carefully. Compare it to your
> refrigerator stock.
>
> __
Will, what is that going to accomplish?

If you have a new starter, it's going to change and settle after a while
and become - more or less - stable.
Now, you do the same thing again, with the same flour, temp and all,
compare it with the first and discover there is a difference.

And - what's the conclusion from that? Is the established, settled
starter better or the new one?

As for smell - I had once a starter which did not "smell right" kind of
too sharp. I took it it a baker which did sourdough. He said that's a
good one and it made very good bread. Reason: LB's became dominant due
to higher temperature.

How do you know what is a good smell for a starter - to what do you
compare your smells?

Sam

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:30:16 -0800 (PST), Matt Fitz
> wrote:

>On Nov 13, 12:50*pm, Kenneth >
>wrote:
>
>> If you are interested, I can suggest ways of boiling the
>> water for steam outside of the oven itself.
>
>Sure, I'll take suggestions.

Hi again,

The typical home oven sits below a range top.

Such ovens have a vent at the rear.

Boil water on the range, and convey the resulting steam into
the oven via the vent. That's all there is to it.

I did it for many years using a cheap pressure cooker that I
found. (Folks get jumpy when they read "pressure cooker" but
there was no pressure at all as you will see.)

I drilled a hole in the lid, and got some fittings from the
local hardware store that allowed me to connect the rig to a
length of copper tubing.

The tubing ran from the area of the range top down the back
of the oven, and into the vent.

Once I had the tubing shaped, I was pleased to see that it
could be rotated to lay flat against the back of the oven,
so, when I disconnected the tubing from the boiler, I could
easily get it "out of the way" without having to thread it
into the vent each time I used it.

So, when I was getting ready to bake, I would open the lid
on the boiler, put in some water, snap on the lid, connect
the tube, and put a flame under the boiler.

Soon, steam was flowing into the oven...

Now, about the "pressure."

There is none because the tube is open at its end. There is
no difference between this situation, and simply having a
hole in the lid of the pressure cooker.

And finally...

I used the pressure cooker because it provided a convenient
way to be able to open and close the boiler, and indeed, it
worked very well for about fifteen years.

But, on reflection, it does seem that it could be done with
a rectangular shaped gallon screw topped can, and no doubt
other ways as well.

I hope that this is of interest,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Nov 14, 10:29 am, Sam >
wrote:

> Will, what is that going to accomplish?

It's a benchmark. It proves the starter you have managed over time has
changed. Whether new or old is better is good information. Maybe old
is better. But I usually don't find that to be true. Which is why I
switched away from refrigerated storage.

> As for smell - I had once a starter which did not "smell right" kind of
> too sharp. I took it it a baker which did sourdough. He said that's a
> good one and it made very good bread. Reason: LB's became dominant due
> to higher temperature.

Interesting. After many months of use and refrigerator storage was it
still "sharp"?
Or was that a transient state?

> How do you know what is a good smell for a starter - to what do you
> compare your smells?

Like everything else, you develop preferences. This is particularly
true for smell. We are hardwired that way. To my way of thinking...we
are well equipped for scent discrimination so it makes sense to use
it.

So I have a question... Does each step of the Detmold process smell
different?

Will wrote:
> [..]
>> As for smell - I had once a starter which did not "smell right" kind of
>> too sharp. I took it it a baker which did sourdough. He said that's a
>> good one and it made very good bread. Reason: LB's became dominant due
>> to higher temperature.
>>
>
> Interesting. After many months of use and refrigerator storage was it
> still "sharp"?
> Or was that a transient state?
>
That was long time ago, at that time, I just putzed around - measured
temperatures and figured with a starter it would be the warmer, the better.
I used it for a short period, maybe a couple times and then abandoned
it. Not sure if it was stable at all.
> Like everything else, you develop preferences. This is particularly
> true for smell. We are hardwired that way. To my way of thinking...we
> are well equipped for scent discrimination so it makes sense to use
> it.
>
That example above with the odd smell and good bread taste taught me not
to rely on my nose too much.
Fermentation is a different world with many smells, not always pleasant
to the human nose and the baking process transforms in addition.
There were starter smells I considered as borderline (towards rotten)
and just used them to see what happens and the bread tasted great.

Interpretation of smells also depends on upbringing - what smells great
for a "oriental" person may not be so for a "non-oriental" person and
the other way around.
> So I have a question... Does each step of the Detmold process smell
> different?
>
I guess so. Can't say anything about the stage # I, it's relatively
small amount and I try to avoid sticking my nose over my starters (ask
DickyA why) - the # II and # III sure do and they change over time
(during growing).
I "like" the # II smell better than the # III but that does not mean
that I make bread from the II.

Sam

Will wrote:
> On Nov 14, 9:23 am, Mike Romain > wrote:
>
>> I am up in Canada and find 'totally' different numbers in All Purpose
>> 'wheat' flours.
>
> I'm not surprised. When I moved to the upper mid-west, I had never
> seen Dakota Maid flour. It's a regional distribution. Nor was I
> impressed by the price. It was the dirt-cheapest flour in the grocery.

Yup, the 'generic' Equality brand was $9.99 for a 10 kilogram (22 lb)
bag vs the name brand's $14.99 last time I bought it.

>
>> My starter stores very well in the fridge and is really consistent for
>> behavior. If I leave it too long, it develops hooch on top that can be
>> stirred back in during refresh. I once poured it off even. My
>> starter's 'taste' effect hasn't changed over the last couple years.
>
> I suggest you get some fresh wheat or rye berries and make a starter.
> It's an easy thing to do. Smell it carefully. Compare it to your
> refrigerator stock.
>

I have made fresh starter from my dried backup stock and from fresh
ground dark rye and yes, for sure the smell and taste is different. I
don't think it was 'better' by a 'long' shot, just 'different', it still
had to 'mature' to get the good taste and consistency of use back like
the older mature 'mother' batch. It did eventually get there though.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com