Yesterday morning I began preparations for today's baking. I made both
a rye and a white AP flour pre-ferment, each from one of my active
sourdough starters (I am up to 7 of them now).

Last evening I mixed the doughs based on each pre-ferment. I prepped
for Jewish style rye bread and also made an enriched, brioche-type
sweet dough for two purposes - pecan sticky buns and a cinnamon raisin
pecan loaf.

I'm getting more confident working without recipes and though I have
been doing this for quite awhile with lean dough breads, I am now
branching out in attempts to work without recipes in more complicated
doughs and breads. One of the reasons that I pursue this is so I
familiarize myself even more with various types of flours and other
ingredients so I can pretty much bake with whatever I have on hand. It
is also a lot of fun for me - more so than just following a recipe.

The photos of some of the weekend's efforts are here. I took the photo
of the rye bread a tad too soon and you can actually see some of the
cornstarch glaze basting evident on the loaf. Nevertheless, I am quite
happy with the results of it all.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/

Boron

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:51:53 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>Yesterday morning I began preparations for today's baking. I made both
>a rye and a white AP flour pre-ferment, each from one of my active
>sourdough starters (I am up to 7 of them now).
>
>Last evening I mixed the doughs based on each pre-ferment. I prepped
>for Jewish style rye bread and also made an enriched, brioche-type
>sweet dough for two purposes - pecan sticky buns and a cinnamon raisin
>pecan loaf.
>
>I'm getting more confident working without recipes and though I have
>been doing this for quite awhile with lean dough breads, I am now
>branching out in attempts to work without recipes in more complicated
>doughs and breads. One of the reasons that I pursue this is so I
>familiarize myself even more with various types of flours and other
>ingredients so I can pretty much bake with whatever I have on hand. It
>is also a lot of fun for me - more so than just following a recipe.
>
>The photos of some of the weekend's efforts are here. I took the photo
>of the rye bread a tad too soon and you can actually see some of the
>cornstarch glaze basting evident on the loaf. Nevertheless, I am quite
>happy with the results of it all.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

Wow...! The results of your efforts are beautiful.

I do have some doubts about the taste however, but would be
available to do some "testing" for you should you wish to
have my address <VBG>.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:25:37 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:51:53 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>>The photos of some of the weekend's efforts are here. I took the photo
>>of the rye bread a tad too soon and you can actually see some of the
>>cornstarch glaze basting evident on the loaf. Nevertheless, I am quite
>>happy with the results of it all.
>>
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/
>>
>>Boron
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>Wow...! The results of your efforts are beautiful.

Thank you very much.
>
>I do have some doubts about the taste however, but would be
>available to do some "testing" for you should you wish to
>have my address <VBG>.

Oh shucks...I am afraid the family and friends have made that
impossible today....Next time, I promise.

Actually, one loaf of rye is in the freezer and will be taken out to
California next week and given to my father in law, who is quite an
accomplished baker himself.
>
>All the best,

Boron

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:28:58 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:25:37 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:51:53 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>>The photos of some of the weekend's efforts are here. I took the photo
>>>of the rye bread a tad too soon and you can actually see some of the
>>>cornstarch glaze basting evident on the loaf. Nevertheless, I am quite
>>>happy with the results of it all.
>>>
>>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/
>>>
>>>Boron
>>
>>Hi Boron,
>>
>>Wow...! The results of your efforts are beautiful.
>
>Thank you very much.
>>
>>I do have some doubts about the taste however, but would be
>>available to do some "testing" for you should you wish to
>>have my address <VBG>.
>
>Oh shucks...I am afraid the family and friends have made that
>impossible today....Next time, I promise.
>
>Actually, one loaf of rye is in the freezer and will be taken out to
>California next week and given to my father in law, who is quite an
>accomplished baker himself.
>>
>>All the best,
>
>Boron

Hi again,

I grew up in Brooklyn and ate two different types of "Jewish
Rye" nearly every day. One was the "standard" rye bread from
the corner bakery. The other was called "corn bread" and was
similar, but more dense, and more flavorful.

I have tried to reproduce these for many years, and the
results are good breads, but really not closely related to
those I try to emulate.

Have you had more luck than I?

If so, I would be interested in your approach.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:23:07 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:28:58 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>

>>Actually, one loaf of rye is in the freezer and will be taken out to
>>California next week and given to my father in law, who is quite an
>>accomplished baker himself.
>>>
>>>All the best,
>>
>>Boron
>
>Hi again,
>
>I grew up in Brooklyn and ate two different types of "Jewish
>Rye" nearly every day. One was the "standard" rye bread from
>the corner bakery. The other was called "corn bread" and was
>similar, but more dense, and more flavorful.
>
>I have tried to reproduce these for many years, and the
>results are good breads, but really not closely related to
>those I try to emulate.
>
>Have you had more luck than I?
>
>If so, I would be interested in your approach.
>
>All the best,

I would say that this is close to a corn rye, which was the bread most
often bought when I was growing up. Most folks are not familiar with
it, so I just called it a Jewish rye. This is a moist and dense bread.

I use an all white starter and make a preferment that is half rye and
half AP - rough guess is about a quarter a quarter cup of active
starter. I add in about a heaping teaspoon of caraway seed. The
preferment is very, very wet and sloppy, but not liquid.

After about 12 hours of ferment, I male the dough - about a third rye,
a third AP and a third clear flours. The amounts you use will depend
on how may loaves you want to make. I generally wind up with between
3.5-4 lbs of dough.

These are all approximate...2.5 tsp salt, a tablespoon of sugar and
about 2 tablespoons of canola oil. A small hand full of caraway.
Enough water to make a tacky dough. You can machine or hand knead, as
you wish. I have never tried any sort of S&F with this dough. The
dough will be quite sticky, but easily turned in a greased bowl.

It then spends overnight in the fridge and is not shaped until it has
been out of the fridge for at least 2-3 hours. The retard will tame
it so it is easily handled with floured hands/board. Then I form the
loaves and let them rise. I bake at 450 with steam. Brush the hot
loaves with a pre-made mixture of cornstarch and water, brought to a
boil in the microwave. I use two coats of varnish.

If this dough over proofs, it will collapse. It'll still bake up
deliciously, but it'll look like hell. Happened yesterday with one
loaf that was proofing in the microwave over the stove. Someone turned
on the stove light, which is on the undersurface of the microwave. It
got to be 86 degrees in there. It deflated, but it did have some oven
spring left and is quite yummy, although not attractive. First time
that has happened with, but it was rather obvious how it happened. I
use my microwaves as proofers all the time. I put the dough in on
parchment, place a container of warm to hot water in, shut the door
and let nature take its course. I can fit a short peel in each
microwave, so there is no trouble moving the proofed loaf.

I cannot promise you the exact results, as you know my wicked ways,
but I reject out of hand the necessity of turning this into a 4-5 day
bread and fussing with multiple rye starter stages as Greenstein
recommends. It isn't quick, but it does give me the results I seek.
Having a good, basic starter is half the battle.

Boron

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message ...

> ... it does give me the results I seek.

Oh, lordy, has anybody ever admitted they got results
they didn't seek?

> Having a good, basic starter is half the battle.

How much of the battle for 7?

(ibid: ...)

--
Dicky
(from the boys' club)

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:43:33 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:23:07 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:28:58 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>>
>
>>>Actually, one loaf of rye is in the freezer and will be taken out to
>>>California next week and given to my father in law, who is quite an
>>>accomplished baker himself.
>>>>
>>>>All the best,
>>>
>>>Boron
>>
>>Hi again,
>>
>>I grew up in Brooklyn and ate two different types of "Jewish
>>Rye" nearly every day. One was the "standard" rye bread from
>>the corner bakery. The other was called "corn bread" and was
>>similar, but more dense, and more flavorful.
>>
>>I have tried to reproduce these for many years, and the
>>results are good breads, but really not closely related to
>>those I try to emulate.
>>
>>Have you had more luck than I?
>>
>>If so, I would be interested in your approach.
>>
>>All the best,
>
>I would say that this is close to a corn rye, which was the bread most
>often bought when I was growing up. Most folks are not familiar with
>it, so I just called it a Jewish rye. This is a moist and dense bread.
>
>I use an all white starter and make a preferment that is half rye and
>half AP - rough guess is about a quarter a quarter cup of active
>starter. I add in about a heaping teaspoon of caraway seed. The
>preferment is very, very wet and sloppy, but not liquid.
>
>After about 12 hours of ferment, I male the dough - about a third rye,
>a third AP and a third clear flours. The amounts you use will depend
>on how may loaves you want to make. I generally wind up with between
>3.5-4 lbs of dough.
>
>These are all approximate...2.5 tsp salt, a tablespoon of sugar and
>about 2 tablespoons of canola oil. A small hand full of caraway.
>Enough water to make a tacky dough. You can machine or hand knead, as
>you wish. I have never tried any sort of S&F with this dough. The
>dough will be quite sticky, but easily turned in a greased bowl.
>
>It then spends overnight in the fridge and is not shaped until it has
>been out of the fridge for at least 2-3 hours. The retard will tame
>it so it is easily handled with floured hands/board. Then I form the
>loaves and let them rise. I bake at 450 with steam. Brush the hot
>loaves with a pre-made mixture of cornstarch and water, brought to a
>boil in the microwave. I use two coats of varnish.
>
>If this dough over proofs, it will collapse. It'll still bake up
>deliciously, but it'll look like hell. Happened yesterday with one
>loaf that was proofing in the microwave over the stove. Someone turned
>on the stove light, which is on the undersurface of the microwave. It
>got to be 86 degrees in there. It deflated, but it did have some oven
>spring left and is quite yummy, although not attractive. First time
>that has happened with, but it was rather obvious how it happened. I
>use my microwaves as proofers all the time. I put the dough in on
>parchment, place a container of warm to hot water in, shut the door
>and let nature take its course. I can fit a short peel in each
>microwave, so there is no trouble moving the proofed loaf.
>
>I cannot promise you the exact results, as you know my wicked ways,
>but I reject out of hand the necessity of turning this into a 4-5 day
>bread and fussing with multiple rye starter stages as Greenstein
>recommends. It isn't quick, but it does give me the results I seek.
>Having a good, basic starter is half the battle.
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

Thanks for the description...

Your comment about the Greenstein method is interesting.

I just "translated" his first few days to "get your
starter."

It does seem to me that he describes a method that is really
building a starter from scratch each time. It does seem an
odd approach for this purpose.

But I will mention that some of the very best bread I have
ever made was the result of using a (white flour) version of
that approach that does come from a French book I have.

The results were sometimes great, but were so wildly
unpredictable (for me at least) as to be something less than
fun.

Thanks again, and all the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Boron Elgar wrote:
> Nevertheless, I am quite
> happy with the results of it all.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/
>
> Boron

Very nice!

I find the SD really adds a nice dimension to the taste of the sticky
buns and sweet breads.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:42:22 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>
>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message ...
>
>> ... it does give me the results I seek.
>
>Oh, lordy, has anybody ever admitted they got results
>they didn't seek?

You mean like I did in the post above in which I mention the deflated
loaf?

Even using someone's tried and recipe cannot guarantee getting the
results one seeks. Until the recipe is mastered to know what results
it gives, how can the baker know what the results are? It is at that
point, the decision can be made as to whether is it what one seeks.

There are hundreds and hundreds of different recipes/techniques and
suggestions floating around online even for basic breads. What one
person wants in a plain white loaf may not be the same as what another
one prefers.

>> Having a good, basic starter is half the battle.
>
>How much of the battle for 7?
>
>(ibid: ...)


Seven DISTINCT ones.

I don't care how you bake, Dickie, really I don't, but you are a
crotchety sourpuss and a snot. I always get the impression you spend
more time yelling at kids to get off your lawn than you do baking.

Boron

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:41:11 -0400, Mike Romain >
wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:
>> Nevertheless, I am quite
>> happy with the results of it all.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/
>>
>> Boron
>
>Very nice!

Thank you.
>
>I find the SD really adds a nice dimension to the taste of the sticky
>buns and sweet breads.

I agree. It also give a bit more structure to the texture. Some might
argue against that, but I do not like sweet breads that are too "airy"
or have a very soft interior texture.

Boron

>Mike
>Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message ...

> I don't care how you bake, Dickie, really I don't, but you are a
> crotchety sourpuss and a snot.

That's Dicky, not Dickie. Can't you get anything right?

> I always get the impression you spend more time yelling
> at kids to get off your lawn than you do baking.

Yelling? Hey, there's better (and more permanent) ways!

> Even using someone's tried and recipe cannot guarantee getting the
> results one seeks. Until the recipe is mastered to know what results
> it gives, how can the baker know what the results are?

True enough, but it is very helpful if the recipe is written clearly, and
concisely. Recipes, including those posted here, usually intermingle
comments and folksy conversation to the extent of being very hard to
follow, particularly when one is all stuck up with dough.

Here is a recently posted recipe (from "Carlos", the masked gringo):
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...cipebyHand.pdf
I happen to know that it was edited and rewritten several times before
it was posted, and that "Carlos" is still working on it, and obtaining
digital photos to illustrate it. I would not go so far as to say that it is
exemplary already as a recipe, but I feel it is worth looking at, for
style of presentation as well as the bread it might facilitate.


"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
>
> ... I will mention that some of the very best bread I have
> ever made was the result of using a (white flour) version of
> that approach that does come from a French book I have.
>
> The results were sometimes great, but were so wildly
> unpredictable (for me at least) as to be something less than
> fun.

Well, now, Kenneth, maybe if your French were better ... ?

--
Dicky