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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Sourdough migration
Has there been anything in terms of laboratory research about whether
a sourdough starter, when moved to a different locale, eventually becomes dominated by the "local" microorganisms? The logic of that happening seems fairly compelling to me, but people continue to sell "regional" cultures as if they can be propagated like plant cuttings. |
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Sourdough migration
"Sledge Hammer" > wrote in message ... > Has there been anything in terms of laboratory research about whether > a sourdough starter, when moved to a different locale, eventually > becomes dominated by the "local" microorganisms? There is ongoing scholarly research, leading, I believe, to various opinions. One opinion (I believe that Michael Gaenzle expressed it recently) is that long-term sourdough cultures tend to drift towards the microorganisms that have been identified (by T.F. Sugihara and coauthors in 1971) with the so-called San Francisco culture. Rye sourdoughs are very interesting to read about if German and Russian are among of your languages. > The logic of that happening seems fairly compelling to me, but people > continue to sell "regional" cultures as if they can be propagated like > plant cuttings. Caveat emptor! A serious reader might start at http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4.html See also http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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Sourdough migration
On Feb 20, 5:29 pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> > The logic of that happening seems fairly compelling to me, but people > > continue to sell "regional" cultures as if they can be propagated like > > plant cuttings. My experience is that culture drifts with flour source and one's maintenance practice. If you store cold, if adjusts to critters that thrive in cold, etc... But I would think, that if you had a "pure" source, like a sample from Acme Bakery for example, and if you maintained it on cooked cereal, you might have a shot at maintaining it's uniqueness. An aside... I often use a (small) cooked cereal stage, when I want a "sourer" result. You can ferment for acid, and not degrade (as much) the eventual gluten potential of your dough. It's sort of like using an old dough, or what Hamelman calls a pre-ferment, except the sour results are more pronounced. |
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Sourdough migration
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:19:41 -0800 (PST), Will
> wrote: >My experience is that culture drifts with flour source and one's >maintenance practice. If you store cold, if adjusts to critters that >thrive in cold, etc... Hi Will, If we think of the issue in terms of emphasis of one or another characteristic of the starter, I agree with what you have written above, but... I know that I have two starters that have lived side-by-side in my refrigerator for about since about 1990. They are fed identically, but have remained distinct for all these years. I've thought about it this way: Say you have a herd of water buffalo somewhere in Asia, but you move 'em to Colorado and start to feed them cracked corn. After several years of breeding would we expect them to have become a flock of chickens? Admittedly, the sourdough critters don't have horns, but they do have DNA, and that would seem to me to be the primary determinant of their characteristics, providing, of course, that modifications of the environment are not so extreme as to kill off the "breeding stock" of one or more of the "subspecies." All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Sourdough migration
On Feb 21, 10:22 am, Kenneth >
wrote: > They are fed identically, but have remained distinct for all > these years. Kenneth, Are these starters maintained on white flour, or are you using a whole grain? Will |
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Sourdough migration
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:30:15 -0800 (PST), Will
> wrote: >On Feb 21, 10:22 am, Kenneth > >wrote: > >> They are fed identically, but have remained distinct for all >> these years. > >Kenneth, > >Are these starters maintained on white flour, or are you using a whole >grain? > >Will Hi Will, King Arthur AP... But say something more about why you asked. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Sourdough migration
On Feb 21, 11:54 am, Kenneth >
wrote: > But say something more about why you asked. If you remember, a couple years back you sent me some of your Acme starter. It was excellent and quite different from the starters I was using. I put it on a regimen of white wheat flour (Montana gold), fed it regularly, which was not a chore as I was using it a lot. And it changed. I have always harbored the suspicion that if I'd kept to regular AP flour I would have been better off. I have had little success in developing new starters with AP flour and 100% success with whole wheats or ryes. Which is to say... AP has less critters. At the time though, I was under the impression that a dominant culture stays dominant. And it probably does if you're using AP. Will |
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Sourdough migration
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:39:58 -0800 (PST), Will
> wrote: >On Feb 21, 11:54 am, Kenneth > >wrote: > >> But say something more about why you asked. > >If you remember, a couple years back you sent me some of your Acme >starter. It was excellent and quite different from the starters I was >using. I put it on a regimen of white wheat flour (Montana gold), fed >it regularly, which was not a chore as I was using it a lot. And it >changed. I have always harbored the suspicion that if I'd kept to >regular AP flour I would have been better off. I have had little >success in developing new starters with AP flour and 100% success with >whole wheats or ryes. Which is to say... AP has less critters. At the >time though, I was under the impression that a dominant culture stays >dominant. > >And it probably does if you're using AP. > >Will Hey Will, Is that your way of asking that I send you some more ACME...?<G> If so, I would be happy to. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Sourdough migration
Being new to the group and a relative novice I'm a bit hesitant to
chime in, but I do have A LOT of experience with yeast having maintained many yeast cultures (home brewing) for several years now. Among homebrewers, there are several prevalent myths: First is that yeast can only be "re-used" for 4 or 5 generations and then only if you are going to reuse them in a short time. The concern is mutation of the yeast which will ultimately alter your beer. I have several cultures that I've maintained for over 4 years and none of them have exhibited any change in characteristics. Second is that if one is going to attempt a Lambic the entire house must be sterilized afterwards as the "wild yeast" will take over and all of your follow-on brews will take on the unique characteristics of a lambic. Again, I've maintained and brewed with "wild" lambic yeasts (and are they really wild if you order them from a laboratory?) without any migration into subsequent fermentations. The only conclusions I can draw is that yeast strains are as unique and individual as the rest of us and while susceptible to mutations and migrations, these things take time and proper care will if not prevent, at least forestall significant changes. Some strains prefer different conditions (lager vs ale yeasts) to perform at their peak and all produce different results (flavors) depending on their environment and diet. Again, I'm new to sourdough, but if brewing yeasts are that varied, I can't imagine that baking yeasts would be all that different. The questions that beg a Has anyone done any research on wild yeast strains by region? i.e. Are there unique qualities associated with starters grown with 'local wild yeasts?" and: How many different starters (strains) do people maintain at any given time? and lastly: Anyone ever try brewers yeast? It thrives in an acid environment but I think you'd have to inoculate the batch with the bacteria to complete the process. Just a couple of random thoughts... All the best, Bill P. |
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Sourdough migration
Hi Kenneth,
Yes I seem to remember using almost the same analogy a while back, but I think mine was sheep and cattle, anyway, I think the point is, the buffalo aren't going to change but if you have a competition for food and a resident population of chickens, if the chickens are more efficient at eating up the food then you'd have more chickens than buffalo, eventually having no buffalo. But what if the buffalo are more efficient than the local population of chickens? The truth in all this is we just don't know on either side of the argument but I think common sense and what research we have seen is that the flour is what is important not where you live. All that smacks of Mal-aria or miasma of the 19th Century. I always site fungal spore spread across vast areas and how the Amazon is fertilized by the Sahara, so if sand can be transported vast distances then little yeast and bacteria floating in the air certainly can be, so any idea of local from an air standpoint is ludicrous. I used to assert that my starters all run true but now I've realised that what I've done with the bake has so much more of an effect on the flavour that it's almost impossible to tell without good side by side tests, I'm not suggesting for a second that I don't believe your starters hold true, Ed Wood's starters all were or seemed different to me too, all grown on the same flour and in the same area. He certainly gets no complaints about that at least. Jim On 21 Feb, 16:22, Kenneth > wrote: > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:19:41 -0800 (PST), Will >... > Hi Will, .... > Say you have a herd of water buffalo somewhere in Asia, but > you move 'em to Colorado and start to feed them cracked > corn. > > After several years of breeding would we expect them to have > become a flock of chickens? > .... > All the best, * > -- > Kenneth > |
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Sourdough migration
On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:31:08 -0800 (PST), TG
> wrote: > >I used to assert that my starters all run true but now I've realised >that what I've done with the bake has so much more of an effect on the >flavour that it's almost impossible to tell without good side by side >tests Hi Jim, I agree with what you have written above, but was not assessing the differences between the two starts I mentioned by taste or by baking characteristics. The two about which I made my comment are ACME and Poilne. I know with certainty that if I refresh them and carefully weigh out equal amounts the ACME rises faster. I have done this simple test many times over many years using an identical pair of graduate cylinders and the difference is always quite dramatic. Though, of course, we could debate the reason, I feel certain that these starters have remained different. Also, when you wrote: >but if you have a competition for food >and a resident population of chickens, if the chickens are more >efficient at eating up the food then you'd have more chickens than >buffalo, eventually having no buffalo. I agree completely, but mentioned in my comment: >provided that modifications of the environment are not so >extreme as to kill off the "breeding stock" of one or more >of the "subspecies." and finally, you said: >Ed Wood's starters all were or seemed different to >me too, all grown on the same flour and in the same area. He certainly >gets no complaints about that at least. but I am curious about why you think he gets no such complaints. Do you think he would tell us? All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Sourdough migration
On 22 Feb, 12:19, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:31:08 -0800 (PST), TG > > but I am curious about why you think he gets no such > complaints. Do you think he would tell us? > > All the best, > -- > Kenneth No but I'm sure I'd have heard here or in one of the groups after all this time. He certainly got no complaints from me. Like I said also, I'm sure what you've observed is accurate, that is my feeling I just haven't done any side by side tests in years to compare two starters. I'm really not worried though, whatever starter I use I get good tasting bread from it, the flavour varies more with the same starter because of temps and times than I've noticed from changing a starter. So I just use the starter that's in the fridge till something comes along that causes me to change. Jim |
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Sourdough migration
On Feb 21, 1:57 pm, Kenneth > wrote:
> Is that your way of asking that I send you some more > ACME...?<G> Kenneth, You are a generous soul. And I would certainly appreciate another bit of that Acme starter whenever it's convenient. My logic last time around was faulty. I have always had good success with starters on white wheat and "assumed" it would make the Acme even better. In hindsight, that was risky. The better practice would have been to keep a version on AP and "trial" a separate effort on the wheat. But you know how it is, to paraphrase Don Rumsfeld: there are the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns. He should have fooled with starter. Sometimes you simply don't know what you don't know <g>. Will |
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Sourdough migration
On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 08:33:51 -0800 (PST), Will
> wrote: >On Feb 21, 1:57 pm, Kenneth > wrote: > >> Is that your way of asking that I send you some more >> ACME...?<G> > >Kenneth, > >You are a generous soul. And I would certainly appreciate another bit >of that Acme starter whenever it's convenient. Hi Will, Please email me with your address... All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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