Hi;

I am making pumpernickel mainly following the method outlined in:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html
I am dividing the 18.2Kg recipe by 10 to get a 4 pound recipe.

Starting with about 1800g, I end up with 1500 to 1600 gram bread, with
other words, on a typical run, I start with a dough hydration of 70%,
and end up with a bread hydration of 45%.

My pumpernickel is pleasant to eat, however, it is quite different
from German pumpernickel. The German pumpernickel I buy in American
German-food stores (500g, plastic wrapped, rye, water, salt, yeast as
only ingredients) is darker than my pumpernickel, somewhat softer and
moister, it has a slightly sweet smell and taste, but of course not as
fresh as my own homebaked pumpernickel. My pumpernickel smells more
like rye in comparison.

I am interested in how much water loss other people experience making
pumpernickel, and also how sour the dough gets prior to baking, i.e.
can you hear the CO2 escaping through the dough, is it a sharp whiff
when smelling it?

I have tried using extra aluminum foil to retain more water, but I end
up with a "doughy" bread.

Jan Fure

On 28 Mar 2004 16:42:53 -0800, (Jan Fure) wrote:

>Hi;
>
>I am making pumpernickel mainly following the method outlined in:
>http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html
>I am dividing the 18.2Kg recipe by 10 to get a 4 pound recipe.
>
>Starting with about 1800g, I end up with 1500 to 1600 gram bread, with
>other words, on a typical run, I start with a dough hydration of 70%,
>and end up with a bread hydration of 45%.
>
>My pumpernickel is pleasant to eat, however, it is quite different
>from German pumpernickel. The German pumpernickel I buy in American
>German-food stores (500g, plastic wrapped, rye, water, salt, yeast as
>only ingredients) is darker than my pumpernickel, somewhat softer and
>moister, it has a slightly sweet smell and taste, but of course not as
>fresh as my own homebaked pumpernickel. My pumpernickel smells more
>like rye in comparison.
>
>I am interested in how much water loss other people experience making
>pumpernickel, and also how sour the dough gets prior to baking, i.e.
>can you hear the CO2 escaping through the dough, is it a sharp whiff
>when smelling it?
>
>I have tried using extra aluminum foil to retain more water, but I end
>up with a "doughy" bread.
>
>Jan Fure

Hi Jan,

How long are you baking, and at what temp?

When I have done them (following Samartha's technique), the breads are
dark brown and very sweet smelling. Others have guessed that the bread
was made with molasses.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> >I am interested in how much water loss other people experience making
> >pumpernickel, and also how sour the dough gets prior to baking, i.e.
> >can you hear the CO2 escaping through the dough, is it a sharp whiff
> >when smelling it?
> >
> >I have tried using extra aluminum foil to retain more water, but I end
> >up with a "doughy" bread.
> >
> >Jan Fure
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> How long are you baking, and at what temp?
>
> When I have done them (following Samartha's technique), the breads are
> dark brown and very sweet smelling. Others have guessed that the bread
> was made with molasses.
>
> All the best,

Hi Kenneth;

I am also following Samartha's technique, but I am not quite sure I am
replicating the amount of leavening correctly.

The time and temperature are 24 hours/250 degree farenheit. I am not
quite sure about my oven calibration.

I have a homemade yoghurt incubator (styrofoam cooler, homemade
thermistor circuit controlling relay which turns on and off work
light) which holds 110 degrees, I will try to tweak it for 90 degrees.
Most of my sourdough refreshing/proofing occurs at room temperature, I
will see if warmer proofing results in better outcomes.

Do you have any measurements of how much weight loss occurs during
baking?

Jan Fure

On 29 Mar 2004 00:38:39 -0800, (Jan Fure) wrote:

>Do you have any measurements of how much weight loss occurs during
>baking?
>
>Jan Fure

Hi again Jan,

No, I am sorry that I do not have that information...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hello,

Jan Fure wrote:
>
> Hi;
>
> I am making pumpernickel mainly following the method outlined in:
> http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html
> I am dividing the 18.2Kg recipe by 10 to get a 4 pound recipe.
>
> Starting with about 1800g, I end up with 1500 to 1600 gram bread, with
> other words, on a typical run, I start with a dough hydration of 70%,
> and end up with a bread hydration of 45%.

I have not measured the loss of weight as far as I remember.

Typically, I get maybe 10 % of weight loss with baking regular (my
style, 50/50 rye wheat mix etc..), dough weight 1660 g, final loaf
weight 1509 after 40 minutes baking, so you have a maybe 20 % loss with
the long baking time, you are pretty much what one could expect.

> > My pumpernickel is pleasant to eat, however, it is quite different
> from German pumpernickel. The German pumpernickel I buy in American
> German-food stores (500g, plastic wrapped, rye, water, salt, yeast as
> only ingredients) is darker than my pumpernickel, somewhat softer and
> moister, it has a slightly sweet smell and taste, but of course not as
> fresh as my own homebaked pumpernickel. My pumpernickel smells more
> like rye in comparison.

Ok I see what you mean. The pumpernickels from the store and driven by
yeast are done with an industrial process and what they do is probably
scald the flour/schrot to get it softened. That's an assumption.

If you could name the brand of the bread you are talking about, I will
go and look if I can find it at the store.

My thinking at this point about the color is that it may depend a lot on
the rye used. There appear to be color variations and the choices on rye
varieties in US is to be happy to get _one_ decent grain and if you can
get it, buy a 3 year supply because you may never get it again.

> I am interested in how much water loss other people experience making
> pumpernickel, and also how sour the dough gets prior to baking, i.e.
> can you hear the CO2 escaping through the dough, is it a sharp whiff
> when smelling it?

The water loss/drying out is definitely an issue with this method, not
to say _the_ issue to solve.
Whatever opening there is in the dough enclosure, it will allow moisture
to escape and with the long baking time, the loaf will dry out.

What you could do it to close the oven vent holes to avoid steam loss. I
do this with duct tape and it sure helps with baking bread - haven't
done it with pumpernickels, though.

The fermentation and sourness is another issue.

Ratio of starter flour/total flour is the key issue. From the recipe
page you said you used, it's not so visible since they use leftover
bread and on the starter calculation page, you can't see it either since
this is using version 1 - you'll have to manually divide the starter
flour by the total flour to get the number.

On the "sketchy notes" page, you see that it's only 10 % starter of
total dough. That's about 8.5 % starter flour (baker's %). Normally,
with a 100 % rye bread, one would use something like 40/50 %. Now,
that's done (the 10% with pumpernickel) to allow for the long
baking/fermentation and avoid excessive sourness.

I am not sure, if you considered that with your recipe. Also, I used
only 3 hours dough fermentation because of this issue.

Another factor to influence acidity is how you grow your starter,
although the portion is relatively small with this, but I never had to
fiddle on that and with pumpernickel.

> I have tried using extra aluminum foil to retain more water, but I end
> up with a "doughy" bread.

Now, you seem to be successful with retaining moisture with your setup.

About the "doghyness" - was it hardening after maybe 24 hours or did it
remain doughy?

Mine are totally soft and "doughy" in the inner parts, but this hardens
after a while.

The Pumpernickels I get from this process are not the almost black/dark
one's you see sometimes sold in cans. That's another tinkering project.
What I get is fairly dark - definitely darker as the darker "Rye-Ola
Pumpernickel" (with molasses) from Rubschlager.

Curious: with your aluminum foil - did you notice any corrosion?

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> Whatever opening there is in the dough enclosure, it will allow =
moisture
> to escape and with the long baking time, the loaf will dry out.

That is another good reason for making Pumpernickel in a crock pot =
fitted
with an insert for "Boston Brown Bread".

Basically, it is cooking in a water bath. Low heat should be used. =
While the
water remains in the outer space, moisture is not escaping from the =
loaf.=20
I suppose it could be topped up after after a day or so, but in my =
experience=20
it proved unnecessary.

---
DickA

Samartha Deva > wrote in message >...
<--------------- SNIP ---------------------------------------------->
> Ok I see what you mean. The pumpernickels from the store and driven by
> yeast are done with an industrial process and what they do is probably
> scald the flour/schrot to get it softened. That's an assumption.
>
> If you could name the brand of the bread you are talking about, I will
> go and look if I can find it at the store.
I threw away the wrapping, but I will post a followup when I buy
another loaf.
>
> My thinking at this point about the color is that it may depend a lot on
> the rye used. There appear to be color variations and the choices on rye
> varieties in US is to be happy to get _one_ decent grain and if you can
> get it, buy a 3 year supply because you may never get it again.
>
> > I am interested in how much water loss other people experience making
> > pumpernickel, and also how sour the dough gets prior to baking, i.e.
> > can you hear the CO2 escaping through the dough, is it a sharp whiff
> > when smelling it?
>
> The water loss/drying out is definitely an issue with this method, not
> to say _the_ issue to solve.
> Whatever opening there is in the dough enclosure, it will allow moisture
> to escape and with the long baking time, the loaf will dry out.
>
> What you could do it to close the oven vent holes to avoid steam loss. I
> do this with duct tape and it sure helps with baking bread - haven't
> done it with pumpernickels, though.
That is sopmething I may try out. No fire hazard?
>
> The fermentation and sourness is another issue.
> <--------------- SNIP ---------------------------------------------->
> On the "sketchy notes" page, you see that it's only 10 % starter of
> total dough. That's about 8.5 % starter flour (baker's %). Normally,
> with a 100 % rye bread, one would use something like 40/50 %. Now,
> that's done (the 10% with pumpernickel) to allow for the long
> baking/fermentation and avoid excessive sourness.

It might be even worse than that, if I remember right, the recipe
calls for 1050g starter for 18.2Kg dough,
>
> I am not sure, if you considered that with your recipe. Also, I used
> only 3 hours dough fermentation because of this issue.
>
> Another factor to influence acidity is how you grow your starter,
> although the portion is relatively small with this, but I never had to
> fiddle on that and with pumpernickel.
I have grown my starter at room temperature until now (15 - 18 degrees
in the winter, maybe up to 25 degree C in the summer), but I will
start growing the starter at 30 degree C, if I understood the FAQ's
correctly, this will give more lactic acid, and less vinegar.
>
> > I have tried using extra aluminum foil to retain more water, but I end
> > up with a "doughy" bread.
>
> Now, you seem to be successful with retaining moisture with your setup.
>
> About the "doghyness" - was it hardening after maybe 24 hours or did it
> remain doughy?
Some remained moist enough that there is lots of residue on the side
of the breadknife.
>
> Mine are totally soft and "doughy" in the inner parts, but this hardens
> after a while.
>
> The Pumpernickels I get from this process are not the almost black/dark
> one's you see sometimes sold in cans. That's another tinkering project.
> What I get is fairly dark - definitely darker as the darker "Rye-Ola
> Pumpernickel" (with molasses) from Rubschlager.
>
> Curious: with your aluminum foil - did you notice any corrosion?
I have used non-stick breadpans (non-stick applied to a breadpan is a
lie in class with "honest politician", and "peace after Sudetenland"),
and stainless steel breadpans, and I have never seen any corosion due
to the aluminum foil. The non-sticks though, have rust spots in the
bottom from prolonged contact with water where the coating has flaked
off. I have demoted the non sticks to water containers in the bottom
of the oven, and use stainless exclusively for baking. (The non-sticks
had a 5 years warrenty, I replaced them once, and calculated that with
my baking habits, I gould get about 10 replacements in a 5 year time
period, but it is too annoying.)
>
> Samartha

Jan