Hi All:

I have finished making my pumpernickel test recipe. The story is chronicled beginning he http://tinyurl.com/y2t66k.

The test recipe can be found he http://tinyurl.com/w38sp .

I would be very thankful for any constructive comments and suggestions prior to my next attempt with this recipe. That will probably be next week.

Specifically, what is the expected moisture loss during baking? What is the minimum baking time to ensure the Maillard reaction?

Thoughts, suggestions, etc. will be appreciated.

Finally, I hope I have adequately acknowledged Samartha's site. This project would not have been possible without it.

Regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:
> Hi All:
>
> I have finished making my pumpernickel test recipe. The story is chronicled beginning he http://tinyurl.com/y2t66k.



Having consumed much vodka, I ventured onto your blog. At first the
photographs seemed in need of better light, but bread does resist good
photography. The photos improved with each page. The blog was
compelling and difficult to put down, in a virtual sort of way.
However, by the end, I was ready for less analysis and a simple
conclusion, i.e., Next time I shall use the crock pot, or, Next time I
shall not knead rye as though it were wheat flour. You get the idea.

Your description of the flavor (not the jerky loaf) inspires one to
make pumpernickel. I would truly like to taste the bread. No really.

In conclusion, I think you must write papers for JANNAF or AIAA
conferences. A radar plot from Excel was conspicuously missing.

Good work. Very nice bread.

Ed Bechtel

On Saturday, October 14, 2006 Ed Bechtel wrote:

> Having consumed much vodka, I ventured onto your blog. At first the
> photographs seemed in need of better light, but bread does resist good
> photography. The photos improved with each page.

Thanks for reading and writing, Ed. This is the first time I posted
pictures on the web. I have a Minolta Dimage X camera, which by today's
standards perhaps takes low resolution images. However, for posting they
are huge. Anyone on dial-up would have plenty of time to make bread while
they loaded. So, I cropped and decreased the resolution hoping to make the
pictures accessible to most everyone.

I also have warm (3500K) CFL (compact fluorescent) lighting in my kitchen so
some were impacted by that and are too yellow. As time goes on, perhaps I
will learn more about this and improve.

> Your description of the flavor (not the jerky loaf) inspires one to
> make pumpernickel. I would truly like to taste the bread. No really.

Great, I am so happy. Join in and help develop a tried and true
Pumpernickel recipe that a sourdough dummy like me can make without too much
trepidation.

> In conclusion, I think you must write papers for JANNAF or AIAA
> conferences. A radar plot from Excel was conspicuously missing.

Ed, an Excel radar plot, if one exists, would only be available to persons
with the highest security clearances from the Pumpernickel Police. Persons
who have such clearances cannot, under penalty of being confined to a small
room in an undisclosed location and fed only three sourdough bricks per day
with a small sides of water for life, reveal that they have such clearances
unless it is to another person having such clearance. So if you want an
Excel radar plot, assuming such a plot even exists, you will need to provide
me with papers <g>. That is, if you are willing to risk the aforementioned
penalty if I do not have proper clearance :-).

Best regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:

> Ed, an Excel radar plot, if one exists, would only be available to persons
> with the highest security clearances from the Pumpernickel Police. Persons
> who have such clearances cannot, under penalty of being confined to a small
> room in an undisclosed location and fed only three sourdough bricks per day
> with a small sides of water for life, reveal that they have such clearances
> unless it is to another person having such clearance. So if you want an
> Excel radar plot, assuming such a plot even exists, you will need to provide
> me with papers <g>. That is, if you are willing to risk the aforementioned
> penalty if I do not have proper clearance :-).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ray

Ed replies:
You make me laugh. I apologize for the inferrence that you were an
engineer / scientist by day. Your reply should be, I'm no scientist, I
just found this calculator.

Regardless, that looks like great bread. Based on your description a
radar graph is available describing the quality of your pumpernickel
over the 44 hours of its creation.

http://www.skideezie.com/Bread/pumpernickelradar.gif

Ed Bechtel

On October 14, 2006" Ed Bechtel" wrote:

> Regardless, that looks like great bread. Based on your description a
> radar graph is available describing the quality of your pumpernickel
> over the 44 hours of its creation.
>
> http://www.skideezie.com/Bread/pumpernickelradar.gif
>
> Ed Bechtel

It was nice talking with you Ed. Sorry, I never got to meet you in person.

Unfortunately, if I were you I'd keep a sharp eye out over my shoulder. I
fully expect you to experience a rendition by the Pumpernickel Police for
this wanton declassification. Many brave yeast and lactobacilli sacrificed
their lives to garner this once highly classified Pumpernickel intelligence
graph <g>.

Regards,

Ray

Hey Ed:

It occurred to me that my in my bout of silliness, I had failed to answer your question. I'm sorry for that oversight but glad that you got a laugh, or maybe even two. Yet, reviewing this email before posting indicates that you may need a quantity of Vodka to aid digesting it <g>.

On October 14, 2006 "Ed Bechtel" wrote:

> However, by the end, I was ready for less analysis and a simple
> conclusion, i.e., Next time I shall use the crock pot, or, Next time I
> shall not knead rye as though it were wheat flour. You get the idea.

Unfortunately, my experiment generated more questions than it answered. While I do not see that as a negative, I will attempt to be more precise and transparent in my thinking.

1) At this time the most successful method for me has been baking in a soufflé dish covered with Reynolds® Wrap ReleaseT and tied with butcher's twine. The soufflé dish rested on two trivets (.625" h) inside a Dutch oven water bath. The lid was tied snug but not tight. This method appears more similar than different when compared to Will Waller's table top roaster and Dick Adams' crock-pot method. I believe my method is fully described within the post.

Samartha's method appears significantly different. In his write-up beginning here http://tinyurl.com/y2mcrx he discusses covering with foil and baking with a large baking pan full of water underneath. I assumed that the description was not a water bath but a separate pan full of water on another rack below the baking bread. I may be totally wrong. Perhaps Samartha would be willing to clarify whether that assumption is correct and his current methods.

The described end results at Samartha's site and in the archives seem similar to the best of my understanding. After reflection, what I initially described as like under-baked brownies could also be described as a no-crust, dark chocolate colored, cheese cake like substance having sufficient structure not to break in half when held by one end. However, holding the same in such a manner will leave imprints of thumb and fingers in the result (see picture).

2) Now, as for kneading the dough. As you know, the gluten content in rye is virtually nil. From http://tinyurl.com/yyy5ss "In rye doughs, the gas is retained due to the high viscosity of swollen gum-like substances (pentosanes) present in the dough. However, the gas permeability of the mass surrounding the gas bubbles is higher in rye dough than in wheat dough. Therefore, rye-containing baked goods have a lower specific volume than wheat dough products...."

Most things that I have read concerning this advocate for much less kneading of rye breads than wheat breads. However, if you look at the series of pictures at http://tinyurl.com/ydx7bw you will see that the dough did develop. My sketchy notes seem to indicate only a 10 minute rest was given after mixing in step 7, but before kneading. The dough was tacky but manageable. While the roll and fold technique is my own, I borrowed the moist hands on a moistened work surface and "stop kneading when sticky" from Laurel Robertson's, "The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book." She discusses kneading rye breads on page 136. During the bulk ferment the dough absorbed moisture and the technique applied again prior to filling the pans.

In contrast, note Samartha reports 20 minutes of kneading with a Kitchen Aid mixer. That is a similar time interval to the prototype recipe http://tinyurl.com/y5te69 which lists times and speeds for two different (commercial, I presume) mixers. While I am far from knowing what is exactly required or best, I feel fairly comfortable that my dough was reasonably well developed by doing what I did.

3) The Detmolder-3 process in the Test recipe is apparently optional. However, my starter build questions set forth in http://tinyurl.com/y8p8z4 remain. In his calculator http://tinyurl.com/w8jjz Samartha calls for a 10% starter inoculation. However, I have been unsuccessful finding a discussion concerning its build on his site.

In contrast, the prototype recipe http://tinyurl.com/y5te69 indicates that the full-sour starter ratio is 1.05kg to 18.2kg dough translating to a 5.8% dough inoculation. The starter build for that inoculation has ..05kg starter inoculating 1kg of 100% hydration rye dough for a ratio of 4.8% (.05/1.05). That starter is given 15 to 20 hours standing time in an 84-86F environment to develop before incorporating into the dough.

For me, maintaining 84-86F over 15 to 20 hours may prove more difficult than the Detmolder-3! Styrofoam cooler proofing boxes with a light bulb (see Ed Wood's method) sitting on the counter do not create harmony in my home. Moreover, I cannot begin to fathom the discord created from a bus tub full of water containing an aquarium heater and starter.

I believe that a longer proof at a lower ambient temperature will certainly produce a full-sour rye inoculation for the final dough. Yet, given the purported disparity in growth rates between lactobacilli and yeast at a lower ambient temperature versus the 84-86F in the recipe, brings out more pesky questions. Would the two methods (longer ambient versus 15 to 20 hours at 84-86F) produce essentially the same microbiological balance? If not, what is the impact on the dough and the final bread? Would following the Detmolder-3 process produce a similar result to the 15 to 20 hour proof at 84-86F? I've got no clue.

4) To rise or not to rise. Mike knows more about bread than I ever will. If he says Pumpernickel shouldn't rise in the pan then it probably should not.
Yet, from the source recipe (http://tinyurl.com/y5te69 ), "resting time 30-45 minutes" is on the line below dough preparation. Following that, "After resting time, re-knead the dough briefly and put it in double-walled baking boxes." Next, "After fermentation {no time is given}, fill water into the baking boxes and put in oven. During baking often refill water to keep up baking humidity." Yes, another one of those pesky questions, if the dough ferments for an unspecified time inside double-walled baking boxes {presumably double-walled Pullman style pans} doesn't it rise while fermenting? I find no mention of a pre-bake punch down. (Note to Samartha: the link http://tinyurl.com/yglnx3 to the original recipe is broken. A search of the parent http://www.sauerteig.de/ revealed no recipes that I could find.)

To sum it all up, if you are both still reasonably sober and reading, go bake Pumpernickel. Since you are reading this in spite of your wanton disclosure of the highly classified Excel Pumpernickel radar graph, indicates that no one from the Pumpernickel Police is likely to kick down your door and take you away if you do not do it absolutely correct.

I feel certain that you will be very pleased with your result. Use whatever technique, crock-pot, table top roaster or my oven method, for which you already have equipment. Perhaps Dick will re-post some suggested times and settings (high - low) and dough weight used in his crock-pot method within this thread for future reference. The same applies to Will and his tabletop roaster method. I would love to see some right out of the oven weights and moisture loss percentages.

Next, tell us how It came out, preferably here. In searching the archives I found Pumpernickel discussions scattered across countless threads. Thus, when I started this one I simply called it Pumpernickel. It would nice to keep it here. However, since I am too busy baking to figure out News ID's, I may have to implore Dick A to help me post if and when Google closes this thread.

Regards,

Ray

Oh man - I am very short on time

- the 10 % sourdough are because the bread would oversour due to the
long time in the oven.

- the sourdough.de site has changed and the URL does not work. Who knows
where they keep their stuff now.

- Yes, I put the pans into water in the oven and also poured water
inside the pans. That helped. The problem is drying out and cracking.

- the pullman pans are expensive, I saw one once - like $ 50. I am not
spending $ 200 for four pans. I got stainless steel now. If a crock pot
works - hey, that's great, use it.

To get a pumpernickel idea, go to a German or delicacy store or order
over the Internet.

Imo it's not all the detail you are asking. It's how you can create
something similar in your environment. 100 % rye, coarse with mixed
granularity, low starter inoculation, some bulk ferment, long bake at
low temperature in high humidity. I think you get it more by doing than
by theorizing. And you should have an idea what the "real" thing is by
getting a sample from somewhere. Not the US stuff, Ruebschlager
(Chicago, I think) - look at the label, where it is manufactured.

Please, if you have a specific question, keep it short and ask it here.

I don't have the time to relive your pumpernickel experience, follow
tiny URL's, reread it all.

See, how far that gets you,

Samartha

PS.: I hate tiny URLS - one cannot see where they lead. If I see a URL
directly, I may not even have to go there, or not want to. And what does
another web server need to know what my ideas are what to show other
people? Zilch!


WRK wrote:

[ a lot ]

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.4.1160927113.62438.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

> since I am too busy baking to figure out News ID's, I may have to implore
> Dick A to help me post if and when Google closes this thread.

Dunno how Google can do that. But OK -- what you can do is circumvent
Google by using a newsreader, like the one which comes with Outlook
Express, for instance, to cut Google out of the picture. Google simply
relays the Usenet newsgroups, of which this one is one.

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
news:mailman.36.1160930050.1438.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...

> Oh man - I am very short on time ...

But how dearly we appreciate the few moments you can succeed
to find to spend with us!

> I hate tiny URLS - one cannot see where they lead. If I see a URL
> directly, I may not even have to go there, or not want to. And what does
> another web server need to know what my ideas are what to show other
> people? Zilch!

Hating will just make you old/older sooner.

Well, personally, when it comes to URLs for individual newsposts in the
Google archive, I do like the trick of prefixing the news ID with
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
which, does, unfortunately make a long item, requiring some attention
to avoid being broken into two or more lines by the your newsreader
when it uploads your post.

That, in Outlook Express, can be accomplished in the following way:
Tools>Options>Send>News Sending Format>Plain Text>Plain Text Settings
>Mime>Quoted Printable. That works for me, but I must manage
my own margins. Maybe there are other ways.

Keeping lines short may avoid getting them all chopped up by
unsophisticated requoters. 66 characters is a good length for lines.

For finding the news ID of post in the Google archive, please see


Anyway, I must say you all are a good group nowadays, seldom requoting
much garbage, managing your line breaks, and usually referencing what you
are commenting on/replying to.

Also including links to photos. I just love pictures!

--
Dicky

Hi Samartha:

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Please, whenever you are
short on time respond in "pumpernickel time." That is, within 2 to 5 days
or if building the rye starter from scratch, 7 to 10+ days would be
expected.<g>

On October 15, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote:

> To get a pumpernickel idea, go to a German or delicacy store or order
> over the Internet.

I have a friend who works for Siemens in Orlando. Group team-members make
trips to Berlin and Muelheim an der Ruhr/ Dussledorf relatively frequently.
I could ask if someone would back some Pumpernickel bread for me, assuming
it will clear customs. Do you have a brand recommendation that might be
widely distributed within either of those cities?

> Please, if you have a specific question, keep it short and ask it here.

1) How much moisture loss is expected if properly baked? That is, if the
dough weighed 1000g, properly baked the bread would weigh roughly_______g
immediately upon removing from the oven?
2) Is Detmold-3 an acceptable method to build the inoculation for
Pumpernickel or is a single inoculation traditional/ preferred?
3) What is an optimal cure time for the baked bread. That is, it should
cure wrapped in baker's linen (or lint-free cotton towel) ____ days before
slicing.
4) Is true Pumpernickel ever allowed to rise in the pan before baking?
5) Have you discovered an optimal oven temperature for the long bake? Is it
continuous or do you start high and reduce _X_ hours later?

> See, how far that gets you,

I love the pumpernickel I have made so far. It would not have been possible
if you had not spent so much time describing your initial efforts on your
site. Like many others, I am indebted to you for those efforts. If and
when you ever have the time, I ask that you look to make sure I have
appropriately credited your work in my posts. I would be very unhappy with
myself if I slighted your work. Please know it would be unintentional.

> PS.: I hate tiny URLS - one cannot see where they lead. If I see a URL
> directly, I may not even have to go there, or not want to.

Excellent point. I never even thought about that. I too, hate being
hijacked to an unknown location. I used the tiny URLS to prevent line
breaks in long links and spare readers a cut and paste to get to the site.
Based on your point, I will attempt to provide both: Standard URLS followed
by (tiny URLS enclosed like this) when I think a standard link is too long
and may be broken in the post.

Again, thank you very much for your time and assistance.

Regards,

Ray

Hey Dick:

Dick Adams wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...697ff87f960f7e

Many thanks Dick. This is going to take some time for me to digest and
understand. So, put this email in my misc. saves folder. To be honest, I
would much prefer to bake some bread than figure it out right now

I sincerely appreciate your trying to help but I freely admit to a one trick
pony mentality. Right now it is focused on sourdough in general and
pumpernickel in particular.

Best regards,

Ray

"WRK" > wrote in message news:mailman.10.1161058503.62438.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> Dick Adams wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...697ff87f960f7e

You mean:

???

> To be honest, I would much prefer to bake some bread than
> figure it out right now

You have to be able to figure out simple stuff! Otherwise you will
need to be demoted to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/

Our lives are made ever more complicated by unscrupulous
operators interposing themselves as middlemen between us and our
rightful stuff. Avoiding their plots can make you free/free-er.

--
Dicky

WRK wrote:
[...]

> I have a friend who works for Siemens in Orlando. Group team-members make
> trips to Berlin and Muelheim an der Ruhr/ Dussledorf relatively frequently.
> I could ask if someone would back some Pumpernickel bread for me, assuming
> it will clear customs. Do you have a brand recommendation that might be
> widely distributed within either of those cities?

Baked goods can be brought into US without restriction and don't need to
be declared. Fruit, vegetables, plants, meat and dairy products cannot.

The commercial Pumpernickels I have seen since I became more aware about
the "normal" things in Germany all had molasses added. This is contrary
to the official "pure recommendations" - no molasses or other additives
I found elsewhere. I don't remeber particular brands.

Trying to categorize Pumpernickels, I come up with:

A - Pumpernickels baked much earlier than consolidated mass production
done nowadays. Maybe it was done as described in Hamelmans book where
the remaining heat in a large oven after regular baking was done.

B - Pumpernickels baked commercially today mass produced in specialized
ovens/factories.

The Hofpfisterei bakery in Munich is now selling organic Pumpernickels
in their stores but they are produced by another bakery.

C - Pumpernickels "relived" by sourheads on this forum and elsewhere in
a non-commercial setting.

>> Please, if you have a specific question, keep it short and ask it here.
>
> 1) How much moisture loss is expected if properly baked? That is, if the
> dough weighed 1000g, properly baked the bread would weigh roughly_______g
> immediately upon removing from the oven?

I measured 20 % at one point.

> 2) Is Detmold-3 an acceptable method to build the inoculation for
> Pumpernickel or is a single inoculation traditional/ preferred?

The recipe I found (on the web) mentioned a 1-stage starter. A 3-Stage
would surely work as well. It may matter when you make 100 kg dough or more.

> 3) What is an optimal cure time for the baked bread. That is, it should
> cure wrapped in baker's linen (or lint-free cotton towel) ____ days before
> slicing.

I have no clue. I can't use it as long as it is hot or soft in the
middle. My guess is that after one day this is gone.

> 4) Is true Pumpernickel ever allowed to rise in the pan before baking?

What is true Pumpernickel - A, B, or C, and who allows?

My thinking is that in B, any delay will be avoided if possible - time
is money. In C, you may want to get it the oven quick. The taste is not
so much developed by the starter, it comes with the long baking.

If you want duplicate a B type pumpernickel bread in your kitchen, good
luck with the structure, it won't be easy. To get the taste somewhat
similar, it's easier.

> 5) Have you discovered an optimal oven temperature for the long bake? Is it
> continuous or do you start high and reduce _X_ hours later?

No - I use only one temperature without variation. My oven has an
automatic shutoff after maybe 12 hours and needs to be turned on again.

[..]


> Again, thank you very much for your time and assistance.

No prob. & thanks for your links/credits.

Below I paste the text of that malfunctioning link (German PN recipe):

Pumpernickel
1-stufige Sauerteigführung mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig mit Pumpernickel-Restbrot
(für 10 kg gesamte Schrotmenge berechnet)

50 % Roggenschrot fein
50 % Vollkorn-Roggenschrot mittel
Sauerteig: 0,05 kg Anstellgut Teigausbeute: 200 (ca.)
0,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigtemperatur: 28 — 30 °C
0 50 l Wasser Stehzeit: 15 — 20 Stunden


1,05 kg Sauerteig


Anstellgut vom reifen Sauerteig abnehmen oder
mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig neu starten
Pumpernickel- 1,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
Restbrot: 3,00 l Wasser Temperatur: 30 — 40 °C) Stehzeit: 4 — 6 Stunden

Brotteig:
1,00
kg
Sauerteig
4,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
4,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigknetung:
5,00 kg Roggenschrot fein Hubkneter:15 — 20 Min. langsam
3,50 l Wasser (ca.) Spiralkneter:15 Minuten langsam
0,10 kg Salz Teigausbeute: 170 (ca.)
0 10 kg Hefe Teigtemperatur: 28 — 30 °C

18,20 kg Brotteig Teigruhe: 30 — 45 Minuten



Nach der Teigruhe den Teig nochmals kurz durchkneten und in
doppelwandige Backkästen legen. Nach der Gärzeit in die Backkästen
Wasser geben und in den Ofen schieben. Während der Backzeit öfter Wasser
nachfüllen, damit immer feuchte Backhitze herrscht.

Backtemperatur: 160 °C, fallend auf 120 °C
Backzeit: 20 — 24 Stunden

Hi Samartha:

Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate your time and help.

On October 18, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote: (denoted by >, previous text from
me are >>)

>Trying to categorize Pumpernickels, I come up with:

>A - Pumpernickels baked much earlier than consolidated mass production
>done nowadays. Maybe it was done as described in Hamelmans book where
>the remaining heat in a large oven after regular baking was done.

>B - Pumpernickels baked commercially today mass produced in specialized
>ovens/factories.

>The Hofpfisterei bakery in Munich is now selling organic Pumpernickels
>in their stores but they are produced by another bakery.

>C - Pumpernickels "relived" by sourheads on this forum and elsewhere in
>a non-commercial setting.

I am trying to make "C."

>> 2) Is Detmold-3 an acceptable method to build the inoculation for
>> Pumpernickel or is a single inoculation traditional/ preferred?

>The recipe I found (on the web) mentioned a 1-stage starter. A 3-Stage
>would surely work as well. It may matter when you make 100 kg dough or
>more.

In building the one-stage starter is the proofing temperature important ?
>From the prototype recipe,
"starter is given 15 to 20 hours standing time in an 84-86F environment to
develop before incorporating into the dough."
Do you try to maintain 84-86F when building your 1-stage starter?

>> 3) What is an optimal cure time for the baked bread. That is, it should
>> cure wrapped in baker's linen (or lint-free cotton towel) ____ days
>> before
>> slicing.

>I have no clue. I can't use it as long as it is hot or soft in the
>middle. My guess is that after one day this is gone.

The last loaves I baked came out of the oven 10/12/06. They were sliced
10/13/06. Since that time the round loaf has been in a brown paper bag
placed cut-side down. As of this morning (10/19/06), it still leaves a
slight residue on the knife when sliced. The center remains moist and chewy
but it does not stick to one's teeth. The flavor is absolutely wonderful.
I think it is more mellow now and perhaps the complexity is more
perceivable.

Note that the round loaf retained 95% of its pre-bake weight after removal
from the oven. Twenty-two hours later it was roughly 86% of its pre-bake
weight. My guess is that if this loaf remained un-sliced and wrapped in
baker's linen or a (lint-free towel) it would take 5 to 10 days to cure or
"dry out." Did I under bake it? Would that be completely outside the
expected range?

The pan loaf was placed in plastic wrap roughly 3 days ago. I thought that
the moisture might better migrate out to the crust wrapped in plastic. As
of today, the pan loaf leaves very little residue on the knife from slicing.
The center is nearly completely dry. However, its taste is sharper-- more
pungent. The slight "burned" taste remains. Thus, imho the round loaf is
quite superior to my palate.

[..]

Many thanks. Get back to me as time allows. I have stepped back from the
project to reflect and gather more information before trying again, perhaps
next week.

Regards,

Ray

I find this topic fascinating but exhausting keepin up with the
dialogue. I would like to give the pumpernickel a go, but want to avoid
researching all the postings. Is there any simple best statement of the
pumpernikel recipe being discussed here.
I have Hamelmans book anyone tried the pumpernicke recipe in there, any
comments. Paddy