I am not a troll; in fact, I have been an affectionate reader and
contributor to this newsgroup, in the past.

The question arose today, at table.
Why do people in so many areas of the world bake without fermentation?
Sardinia, Israel, Arabia, India, ... (please, add more).

Lacking refrigerators, once upon a time, was sourdough fermentation
inconvenient in hot climate?
Aging too fast, and not allowing a reasonable lapse of a few days
between successive baking sessions?
Just a thought.

Thanks to all, and
keep up baking!

Sergio
Pisa

Sergio SERVADIO > wrote in message >...
> I am not a troll; in fact, I have been an affectionate reader and
> contributor to this newsgroup, in the past.
>
> The question arose today, at table.
> Why do people in so many areas of the world bake without fermentation?
> Sardinia, Israel, Arabia, India, ... (please, add more).
>
> Lacking refrigerators, once upon a time, was sourdough fermentation
> inconvenient in hot climate?
> Aging too fast, and not allowing a reasonable lapse of a few days
> between successive baking sessions?
> Just a thought.

You really need to visit some of those places specially their bakeries
and you will be surprised.

I do not think that people in those areas you mentioned baked bread
without fermentation. I had stayed in Saudi Arabia and other middle
eastern countries for some years and I had never seen a bread there
that is not fermented .
Those middle eastern countries are really hot especially during summer
and there are still areas that practice the traditional sourdough
baking ( that incidentally has a variant of sourdough organisms
applied in their particular type of Arabic bread( called as mafroodah,
khaboosh ,baladi etc).

If you happen to be in the rural Arabic bakery, you did not notice
that if the particular bakery is using a traditional sourdough
starter that has been bubbling in casks somewhere in a dark corners
of their bakery and being carefully maintained you will be inclined
to believe that their bread is unleavenend as you do not see them
adding bakers yeast in their formulation.
It is a sourdough variety highly suited for hot climates and I have
never seen an arabic baker using refrigeration in maintaining such
doughs or starer.
But if you lived in urban areas you will mostly see bakers yeast
raised breads including their familiar flat breads.
But you will be surprised at the desirable aroma of their breads(
wafted through the chimmeys in these rural bakeries) once they start
baking in their ovens . Another thing that will make you inclined to
believe is that the baking process of such Arabic bread is short if
compared with made typical western type bread. But In some forms of
baladi ,the dough (containing the starter)its is processed like the
traditional sourdoughs where the dough is allowed to stand(ferment)
12-24 hours before processed to bread.

What ever the leavening system used; either bakers yeast or wild
yeasts culture the process is basically the same. The bread
ingredients are mixed then divided by hand ( or machine in big
bakeries)and by the time the dough is on the bench it has acquired
some rest already.It is then rolled thin( in some varieties slapped
to shape) the time it takes to finish the batch is enough to bring
some proofing which is short in comparison. There are some breads like
the tamees( which is of afghan origin when shaped, is just stuck to
the walls of the domed mud brick oven and baked.
If that is still insufficient just look at their other breads such
as their samolis( Arabic bread rolls are made in the same process as
the western type soft rolls and buns) with respect to recipes and
timing in the processing. The same with the burek( which is basically
the same dough but filled with various savory fillings).
In many areas of the Arab world you will see the French baking system
being widely applied even using the same mixers and bread making
system ( such prevalent in countries of Algeria Tunisia Morocco and
Egypt .
Roy

On 17 Feb 2004, Roy Basan wrote:
> Sergio SERVADIO > wrote in message >...
> You really need to visit some of those places specially their bakeries
> and you will be surprised.

Thank you so much for your wondeful answer.
Shamefully, I have never travelled to those Eastern Countries.

Sergio
Pisa

Roy,

Thank you very much for giving a guiding tour of traditional Arabic
baking.
Do you have any recipe/advice for baking those breads that you've
mentioned in your posting?
I am particularly interested in trying to make that flat bread that
often goes by its Greek name Pita....
What kind of flour is used (or rather what kind should we use to
arrive at a reasonably good imitation), what is the proportion of
starter used and what is the hydration? Do they use any salt in the
dough? What makes the bread open up the pocket inside?

(Nabuco) wrote in message . com>...
> Roy,
>
> Thank you very much for giving a guiding tour of traditional Arabic
> baking.
> Do you have any recipe/advice for baking those breads that you've
> mentioned in your posting?
The arabic bread as made in the bakery has a simple recipe, just
flour,water,salt and yeast in approximately the same ratio as typical
french /italian bread.
The water absorption varies with flour quality as well as the bread
variety. I noticed that bakeries who made sourdough type arabic bread
used a darker flours( along the line of clears,others blend white and
wholemeal. In baladi they add some portion of fine bran.
I asked a baker about this why don't they use white flour if they use
a sourdough starter? The reply was it was due mainly to tradition as
previously they (baker themselves) used to grind their wheat between
stones.In addition a sourdough type flat bread made from white flour
is not well appreciated by the consumers. Therefore they had to blend
flours if they want to make the traditional sourdough raised arabic
breads.
If they use the starter from what I observed the ratio of the starter
added is approximately the same as the normal sourdough you make here.
The difference with these arabic bread is the proofing and baking is
short where in the latter within in the matter of few minutes at a
high temperatures( higher than what is used for normal bread)..So if
you are casual observer of their process and do not understand the
process well you will be inclined to believe that their bread is not
microbially raised at all.
One
> I am particularly interested in trying to make that flat bread that
> often goes by its Greek name Pita....
> What kind of flour is used (or rather what kind should we use to
> arrive at a reasonably good imitation), what is the proportion of
> starter used and what is the hydration? Do they use any salt in the
> dough? What makes the bread open up the pocket inside?

The pita bread was derived from the arabic bread they call as khubz,
kaboosh ,mafrood, taftoon etc.Most consumers associate it with bread
made with white flour but in the countries of their origin its made
from a wide varieties of flours( white,brown, blend of flours).
The hydration can vary according to the bread type , the egyptian
baladi is a high hydration type that the dough looks like a thick
pancake or muffin batter.
Which is just squeezed and spread thin by hand on trays lined with
fine bran and then baked in the oven.The baladi does have a pocket but
very minimal if compared to the pita type bread.Meaning that the dough
consistency is one factor for considerable pocket formation.
The KhubZ( In Saudi arabia ,Bahrain,Qatar,Kuwait, and Emirates) or
called in Lebanon as mafrood has a hydration like a normal dough which
can be formed into balls, allowed to rest, then sheeted into a disk
then placed in a very hot oven( more than 300 degrees C). The
temperature varies if the dough is sheeted to 2 mm thick its baked at
higher temperatures( in the range of 350 degrees C or more for just
20-30 seconds. As the thickness increase the baking temperature is
lowered and the baking time is increased that can reached usually a
minute or two.Thicker pitas can be made in the home conditions and
there are recipes( even in the net about it).It is now a highly
mechanized process and many pita bread or arabic bread bakers does
not even touch the dough.

If you are trying to imitate the real thin pita bread it will be
difficult to do with the restricted oven temperatures in the household
oven.
The thin dough disk is placed in the oven floor and in the matter of
several seconds it expands like a basketball.It will only starts to
deflate when you take it out from the oven.It is difficult to simulate
such rapid dough expansion in the household oven. The bakes do not
even turn it the other side. Once the bread appears lightly browned
its immediately removed. If the baker is loading the bread with a
wooden peel the moment he is done with the dough loading , he is
starting to remove the baked pitas. It is tiresome work for the oven
man as its a continuous process of loading the dough and removing the
bread.That is why bakers nowadays prefer the mechanized process.
The secret of its good pocket formation is the high oven temperature
that will force the dough moisture to be rapidly converted into steam
which is more responsible for the leavening of that bread than the
fermentation products( which are more for flavors).
The gluten of the flour will serve as a membrane that will enable it
to expand properly. The flour protein is just medium ,( like most of
the homegrown wheats in the middle east) like the all purpose ,as
higher protein flours will make a rather chewy eating khaboosh which
is not desirable.
The yeast/sourdough is more for the desired bread flavor, as certain
arabic bread made in Iran does not have yeast but is bland tasting.
That particular pita as made in the large scale bakery is done with
bakers yeast and only those rural small scale bakers use the sourdough
for leavening it.
IIRC, I think Ed Wood has mentioned a middleeast sourdough variety in
his popular book .
If you want to make a sourdough pita ,do it as it does not matter if
you are not using the original arabic strain of sourdough.It might be
better tasting .
Indeed from my sensory assessment ,the sourdough pitas has better
bread flavor than the bakers yeast raised pita.
Blend about 20 -30 parts of fine wholemeal with 70-80 parts of all
purpose and use that to imitate the flavour of the traditonal arabic
bread.
You can also try blending 10% fine whole rye flour with 90% white
flour (for variety).
You will have to make a dough with your starter and let it rise before
you divide it into balls and roll it thin,but not much as its
impractical in household conditions with the available oven).The dough
should appear firm and not sticky.
Normally 5 millimeter thickenssis sufficient for household pitas so
that you can bake that in a 250 degree C for a few minutes.After you
made disk of dough ,give it about 30 minute proofing then bake.
You may have to turn it if the oven top heat is not that great.But
you will need a baking stone as you have to place the dough directly
in the oven floor.
The baking time may fluctuate according to the oven performance but
once the bread starts to brown its considered done, or you will end up
with crispy pitas which is undesirable.
Good Luck!