Recently there have been techniques mentioned for achieving steam while baking.
Marcella puts the skillet ABOVE a pre-heated stone and obtains a beautiful
golden crust.
Brian uses ice cubes in his iron oven.
I tried the Marcella steam method this weekend with great success - the
baguette was golden brown and the crust was not as tough as my normal method.
I will use this method more in the future.
My oven does not have the mass to do the ice cube method.

Last weekend I took photos of the method I NORMALLY use with skillet BELOW the
stone. This has worked well for achieving bigger holes in slack doughs because
the super heated steam is more effective than putting a bowl of water in the
oven.

The picture of importance is the sixth thumbnail - there is a LOT of steam
generated. This loaf turned out more like a flying crust with a moustache, but
you get the idea - more holes than usual. Dough was 20 ounces at 74%
hydration. Ate it before taking a finish weight.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html


Ed Bechtel

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Recently there have been techniques mentioned for achieving steam while
baking.
snip
> Ed Bechtel

I think steam pan placement is more dictated by how large your oven is,
rather than the crust color that develops. If you have a small electric
oven, placing the steam pan directly beneath the baking stone will cause a
cold spot beneath the loaf, resulting in a whitish bottom crust. I would
think the reverse could also be true. Placing the baking loaf too close to
an overhead cast iron fry pan may cause a cold spot. Just as placing the
baking stone on the very bottom rack may cause burned bottoms on the loaves.
Each person must tinker with placement of racks, pans and loaves to achieve
optimum results in their own oven. Each oven is different. So, independent
of pan placement and oven dynamics, there could be something else going on
with hole and crust development you observed.
Janet

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> I think steam pan placement is more dictated by how large your oven is,
> rather than the crust color that develops. If you have a small electric
> oven, placing the steam pan directly beneath the baking stone will cause a
> cold spot beneath the loaf, resulting in a whitish bottom crust. I would
> think the reverse could also be true. Placing the baking loaf too close to
> an overhead cast iron fry pan may cause a cold spot.

If you preheat the skillet in the oven beneath the heavy baking
tiles and give the oven a while (maybe an hour) to fully heat
everything, you probably won't have much trouble with cold spots.

Feuer > writes:

> > I think steam pan placement is more dictated by how large your oven is,
> > rather than the crust color that develops. If you have a small electric
> > oven, placing the steam pan directly beneath the baking stone will cause a
> > cold spot beneath the loaf, resulting in a whitish bottom crust. I would
> > think the reverse could also be true. Placing the baking loaf too close to
> > an overhead cast iron fry pan may cause a cold spot.
>
> If you preheat the skillet in the oven beneath the heavy baking
> tiles and give the oven a while (maybe an hour) to fully heat
> everything, you probably won't have much trouble with cold spots.

Does baking in a convection oven help even the temperature and
circulate the steam?
--

Ronald Florence www.18james.com

"Feuer" > wrote in message ...
> If you preheat the skillet in the oven beneath the heavy baking
> tiles and give the oven a while (maybe an hour) to fully heat
> everything, you probably won't have much trouble with cold spots.

You make a good point. The skillet should be preheated along with the oven.
And you are also correct that a healthy time period is necessary to heat the
oven body as well as the oven air. However, it doesn't make any difference
in the circumstances of a small oven. That skillet will cool when boiling
water is placed in it and the rising evaporating water will cool the stone
immediately above. Even removal of the skillet at the end of the steam
period will not allow the stone to heat sufficiently to brown the bottom
crust. Remember that you are also cooling the crust from above when you
place the room temperature raw loaf on it. After experimentation, I settled
on the skillet on the top rack and the stone on the second-from-the-bottom
rack. You may not have these issues for a variety of reasons. My point was
that if the standard configuration doesn't get the results you want, try
something else and if you get an unexpected result you need you take a look
at all factors to determine what is going on.
Janet

Very nice pictures Ed.
Did you use any ascorbic acid to make the bread rise so nicely
and is that parchment paper under the bread? I never have been
able to move a raised loaf with my peel on to a hot stone
properly.
Ernie

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
>
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html
> Ed Bechtel

in article , Feuer at wrote on
22/12/03 10:11 am:

>
>
> Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
>> I think steam pan placement is more dictated by how large your oven is,
>> rather than the crust color that develops. If you have a small electric
>> oven, placing the steam pan directly beneath the baking stone will cause a
>> cold spot beneath the loaf, resulting in a whitish bottom crust. I would
>> think the reverse could also be true. Placing the baking loaf too close to
>> an overhead cast iron fry pan may cause a cold spot.
>
> If you preheat the skillet in the oven beneath the heavy baking
> tiles and give the oven a while (maybe an hour) to fully heat
> everything, you probably won't have much trouble with cold spots.
I keep my pan of rocks in the oven all the time and preheat the kiln shelf
piece and oven for at least 45 minutes before and have never had any cold
spots or uneven crust. I pour the hot water on the rocks immediately after
putting the loaf on the shelf with a peel. Ellen

"Ronald Florence" > wrote in message
...
snip
> Does baking in a convection oven help even the temperature and
> circulate the steam?
> --
>
> Ronald Florence www.18james.com

A fan assist will certainly distribute the hot air and steam more evenly.
In my case the fan didn't solve the cold spot problem because the placement
of stone and pan is just too close. I haven't experienced a fan assist with
a larger oven, but in my oven I don't use the fan for free form loaves at
the beginning of the bake because the dough closest to the fan tends to dry.
After the oven spring is complete and the crust is formed I do use the fan
to help with even browning. The important thing is that everyone's oven
is different in the way it heats. You need to observe what is going on and
then fiddle with things to make it work for you.
Janet

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:56:29 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>I never have been
>able to move a raised loaf with my peel on to a hot stone
>properly.

Hi Ernie,

The parchment paper certainly works well, but I was curious...

Do you put something like corn meal between the dough and the peel? It
acts like ball bearings and makes sliding the dough off the peel
rather easy.

Also, do you let the dough sit on the peel for some time? If so, that
will make it very difficult to slide the dough off, with, or without,
cornmeal or some such.

If you let your dough rise in some sort of intermediate container (a
banneton for example) put some meal on the peel, invert the dough onto
the peel, and slide away, it should be pretty easy.

All the best,

--
Ed

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----== Thanks ==----

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:47:25 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>All the best,
>
>--
>Ed
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
>
> ----== Please NOTE ==----
>
>The ADVERTISING below

"Ed"?

"Advertising"?

Are you losing your mind...?

No, I am. 'Sorry.
--
Ed

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:57:29 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>No, I am. 'Sorry.
>--
>Ed

Apparently, I really am losing my mind.

--
Kenneth

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"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Ernie,
> The parchment paper certainly works well, but I was curious...
> Do you put something like corn meal between the dough and the
peel? It
> acts like ball bearings and makes sliding the dough off the
peel
> rather easy.

I have tried corn meal and it works, but my wife objrcts to the
mess I make with it.

> Also, do you let the dough sit on the peel for some time?

Guilty!

> If you let your dough rise in some sort of intermediate
container.........

I shall try this, but being paralized on the left side makes
handleing it a little difficult.
I think the parchment paper is my best option.
Thank you for your suggestions
Ernie.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:12:01 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Hi Ernie,
>> The parchment paper certainly works well, but I was curious...
>> Do you put something like corn meal between the dough and the
>peel? It
>> acts like ball bearings and makes sliding the dough off the
>peel
>> rather easy.
>
>I have tried corn meal and it works, but my wife objrcts to the
>mess I make with it.
>
>> Also, do you let the dough sit on the peel for some time?
>
>Guilty!
>
>> If you let your dough rise in some sort of intermediate
>container.........
>
>I shall try this, but being paralized on the left side makes
>handleing it a little difficult.
>I think the parchment paper is my best option.
>Thank you for your suggestions
>Ernie.
>

Hi again Ernie,

The parchment paper approach does have advantages, but (at least for
me) it makes a mess of its own. I find that when I use it I cannot
seem to remove the parchment paper from the oven without leaving
little charred pieces of the stuff all over the kitchen.

If that is a problem for you, you might want to look into a Silpat
pad:

http://www.real-kitchen-houseware-st...king-Sheet.asp

They are pads that are rather like an (almost) infinitely re-useable
parchment paper.

I often use them and find them to be wonderful.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> Hi again Ernie,
> If that is a problem for you, you might want to look into a
Silpat
> pad:
>
http://www.real-kitchen-houseware-st...king-Sheet.asp
> They are pads that are rather like an (almost) infinitely
re-useable
> parchment paper.
> I often use them and find them to be wonderful.
> All the best,
> Kenneth

That;s interesting Ken, I will give it a try.
Ernie

"Ernie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kenneth" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi again Ernie,
> > If that is a problem for you, you might want to look into a
> Silpat
> > pad:
> >
>
http://www.real-kitchen-houseware-st...king-Sheet.asp
> > They are pads that are rather like an (almost) infinitely
> re-useable
> > parchment paper.
> > I often use them and find them to be wonderful.
> > All the best,
> > Kenneth
>
> That;s interesting Ken, I will give it a try.
> Ernie

While looking at places to buy Silpat I came across something
called "Shape2BAKE" on Ebay. It says it is equally as good as
Silpat, lasts as long, is lighter in weight and can be cut to
shape with scissors. Has any one tried this and what is your
opinion?
Ernie

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:22:11 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>While looking at places to buy Silpat I came across something
>called "Shape2BAKE" on Ebay. It says it is equally as good as
>Silpat, lasts as long, is lighter in weight and can be cut to
>shape with scissors. Has any one tried this and what is your
>opinion?
>Ernie

Hi Ernie,

I know nothing at all about the second product, but I do know that it
is not appropriate to cut a Silpat. They are made of glass (believe it
or not) that is sealed in some sort of skin. If one cuts it, there
will be glass fibers all over the place...

If you try the other version, let us know your results...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Ernie wrote:
<< Did you use any ascorbic acid to make the bread rise so nicely and is that
parchment paper under the bread? I never have been able to move a raised loaf
with my peel on to a hot stone properly. >>

I did not use ascorbic acid. The flour is high protein Wheatmontana. I read
the sack and it also has malted flour in it as well as the usual suspects like
folic acid, etc. But no ascorbic acid.

I have pretty much resigned to using parchment all the time. There's a
discount kitchen store nearby and I snag unbleached rolls at $5 each.

Sometimes I use cornmeal AND parchment, so when the parchment is whisked away
half way through baking, it launches corn meal as well as paper fragments
everywhere.

My wife announced last night, "I washed the floor!" meaning, "what the hell
did you bake this weekend and please don't do it for a few more days."

Thanks,
Ed


Ed

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
snip
>
> My wife announced last night, "I washed the floor!" meaning, "what the
hell
> did you bake this weekend and please don't do it for a few more days."
>
> Thanks,
> Ed
I didn't realize that any of you guys actually understood this kind of
remark. (ducking!)

I don't understand why you get parchment fragments. (Well, other than you
are removing the paper during the bake--why?)
Are you using the big metal peel like the pizza guy uses? It's a thin blade
the general size of a baking stone, so it zips right under all the bread,
paper etc at the end of the bake, resulting in no mess. Remove the paper
from the hot loaf over the sink.
Janet

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:22:11 GMT, "Ernie"
> > wrote:
>
> >While looking at places to buy Silpat I came across something
> >called "Shape2BAKE" on Ebay. It says it is equally as good as
> >Silpat, lasts as long, is lighter in weight and can be cut to
> >shape with scissors. Has any one tried this and what is your
> >opinion?
> >Ernie
>
I use a thin, teflon fabric sheets that I bought in the UK where they are
widely available.
I have cut some and use them when I'm baking very soft doughs on the baking
stone.

It looks as if "Shape2bake" is a similar product and I would suggest that
you try it. You can cut the stuff to line cake tins - something you can't
do with silpat.

Graham

"Graham" > wrote in message
news:L4_Fb.791585$pl3.704891@pd7tw3no...
> I use a thin, teflon fabric sheets that I bought in the UK
where they are
> widely available.
> I have cut some and use them when I'm baking very soft doughs
on the baking
> stone.
> It looks as if "Shape2bake" is a similar product and I would
suggest that
> you try it. You can cut the stuff to line cake tins -
something you can't
> do with silpat.
> Graham

Thanks Graham I guess I will try it.
Ernie

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article >, Kenneth
> wrote:

> The parchment paper approach does have advantages, but (at least for
> me) it makes a mess of its own. I find that when I use it I cannot
> seem to remove the parchment paper from the oven without leaving
> little charred pieces of the stuff all over the kitchen.

Reynold's, in Canada at least, markets a Reynolds "Release" Non-Stick
Aluminum Foil. Appears to be almost infinitely reusable in my
experience.

Cheers,

Darrell

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at)
telus.net

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 01:31:22 GMT, Darrell Greenwood
> wrote:

>[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
>In article >, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>> The parchment paper approach does have advantages, but (at least for
>> me) it makes a mess of its own. I find that when I use it I cannot
>> seem to remove the parchment paper from the oven without leaving
>> little charred pieces of the stuff all over the kitchen.
>
>Reynold's, in Canada at least, markets a Reynolds "Release" Non-Stick
>Aluminum Foil. Appears to be almost infinitely reusable in my
>experience.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Darrell

Hi Darrell,

Very sincere thanks... I will look for it.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

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