On November 09, 2006, Jeff Miller wrote:

> I'm curious as to how people think this technique might work for
> sourdough.
> Obviously, it's a very different ballgame, because too long of a
> fermentation will turn the dough to rags. But might it be possible to use
> a
> very small amount of starter -- say 5 to 10 percent of the total flour --
> and make it work?

Hey Jeff:

If you print out a copy of this email and take it to McDonalds with $5 I am
pretty sure you can get a cup of coffee in most places. That is fact; the
rest below is conjecture.

The issue for me is environmental. I believe my issue is related to your
question. Most of the time I am dealing with a 78F to 80F kitchen. Things
happen pretty fast. So I began experimenting with inoculation percentages
first.

1) If I understand correctly, and I hope Dick or others will correct me if I
am wrong, it is not unusual in some kitchen proofing environments to have
sourdough yeast and LB's doubling roughly every hour or so. So the
difference between a 20% inoculation and a 10% inoculation is roughly one
generation time. A doubling. That doubling can be as short as one hour in
the right temperature environment. (See:
http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/table.html ).

2) The FAQ's and Ed Wood's culture rejuvenation methods both use a roughly
5% inoculation of old starter to re-grow the culture. Based upon that
alone, I would personally not go below 5%. Others with more experience may
set me straight on the bottom limit.

3) Many people retard dough in the refrigerator. Bakeries have temperature
controlled proofing environments that are adjustable. Some posters have
basements/ garages or other locations with lower temperatures. I have
experimented with putting a couple of re-usable chemical ice blocks (blue
re-freezable things) in the oven to help keep the temp down overnight. The
purpose I believe in all cases is to slow down the growth rate and extend
the proofing time.

4) Most recently, I have been watching my dough temperatures.
See: http://www.bakers-exchange.com/articles/2000/dec.html . This has been
the most help so far for me. In order to avoid using ice and a different
formula, I may need to refrigerate my flour, too.

5) Finally, I have begun to add 20% whole grain flour to my long
fermentation processed white flour experiments assuming that it would raise
the ash content and increase the dough's ability to ferment for a longer
period.

So, what I have deduced so far, which may be completely in error, is that to
stretch out the fermentation time one can use a combination of inoculation
level (to a certain end point) combined with a lower dough temperature and
proofing temperature (to a certain end point).

Whether chemical development of the dough correlates with the yeast / Lb's
growth curve in any random sample dough, I do not know. However, as Hans
stated in
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...392ad12ba0e52:
"Try mixing a small amount of flour and water into a dough (no start, yeast,
etc.) and let it sit for a couple of hours and observe
the development." Gluten development will occur sans a leavening agent.

You can see the contrast between
http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/meet/forestier.html where the dough is whacked
on the counter 800 times and subsequently stretched and folded versus
http://video.on.nytimes.com/ifr_main...56.60606510937
(= http://tinyurl.com/y74dqt ) which is the subject of this thread and was
sans all kneading and had only one rudimentary flatten/ stretch and fold.
However, in both cases the gluten developed.

I am not sure if any of this address your question concerning converting the
recipe in the video to one made with sourdough. I believe it is quite
possible, and perhaps very straightforward if you have a "normal kitchen
environment."

I have been using Mike Avery's recipe
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html sans kneading, proofing 12 hours +/-
, stretch and fold, final rise and bake. Twelve hours was too long for my
kitchen environment with an initial dough temperature of 70F. So next time
I will shorten to 8 or 9. My guess is that I will get it to work after a
try or two more.

I hope that this helps. Regardless, take what makes sense, ignore the rest.
I cannot claim satisfactory success with anything I have tried to date in
these experiments.

Regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:
> On November 09, 2006, Jeff Miller wrote:
>
> > I'm curious as to how people think this technique might work for
> > sourdough.
> > Obviously, it's a very different ballgame, because too long of a
> > fermentation will turn the dough to rags. But might it be possible to use
> > a
> > very small amount of starter -- say 5 to 10 percent of the total flour --
> > and make it work?
>
> Hey Jeff:
>
> If you print out a copy of this email and take it to McDonalds with $5 I am
> pretty sure you can get a cup of coffee in most places. That is fact; the
> rest below is conjecture.
>
> The issue for me is environmental. I believe my issue is related to your
> question. Most of the time I am dealing with a 78F to 80F kitchen. Things
> happen pretty fast. So I began experimenting with inoculation percentages
> first.
>
> 1) If I understand correctly, and I hope Dick or others will correct me if I
> am wrong, it is not unusual in some kitchen proofing environments to have
> sourdough yeast and LB's doubling roughly every hour or so. So the
> difference between a 20% inoculation and a 10% inoculation is roughly one
> generation time. A doubling. That doubling can be as short as one hour in
> the right temperature environment. (See:
> http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/table.html ).
>
> 2) The FAQ's and Ed Wood's culture rejuvenation methods both use a roughly
> 5% inoculation of old starter to re-grow the culture. Based upon that
> alone, I would personally not go below 5%. Others with more experience may
> set me straight on the bottom limit.
>
> 3) Many people retard dough in the refrigerator. Bakeries have temperature
> controlled proofing environments that are adjustable. Some posters have
> basements/ garages or other locations with lower temperatures. I have
> experimented with putting a couple of re-usable chemical ice blocks (blue
> re-freezable things) in the oven to help keep the temp down overnight. The
> purpose I believe in all cases is to slow down the growth rate and extend
> the proofing time.
>
> 4) Most recently, I have been watching my dough temperatures.
> See: http://www.bakers-exchange.com/articles/2000/dec.html . This has been
> the most help so far for me. In order to avoid using ice and a different
> formula, I may need to refrigerate my flour, too.
>
> 5) Finally, I have begun to add 20% whole grain flour to my long
> fermentation processed white flour experiments assuming that it would raise
> the ash content and increase the dough's ability to ferment for a longer
> period.
>
> So, what I have deduced so far, which may be completely in error, is that to
> stretch out the fermentation time one can use a combination of inoculation
> level (to a certain end point) combined with a lower dough temperature and
> proofing temperature (to a certain end point).
>
> Whether chemical development of the dough correlates with the yeast / Lb's
> growth curve in any random sample dough, I do not know. However, as Hans
> stated in
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...392ad12ba0e52:
> "Try mixing a small amount of flour and water into a dough (no start, yeast,
> etc.) and let it sit for a couple of hours and observe
> the development." Gluten development will occur sans a leavening agent.
>
> You can see the contrast between
> http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/meet/forestier.html where the dough is whacked
> on the counter 800 times and subsequently stretched and folded versus
> http://video.on.nytimes.com/ifr_main...56.60606510937
> (= http://tinyurl.com/y74dqt ) which is the subject of this thread and was
> sans all kneading and had only one rudimentary flatten/ stretch and fold.
> However, in both cases the gluten developed.
>
> I am not sure if any of this address your question concerning converting the
> recipe in the video to one made with sourdough. I believe it is quite
> possible, and perhaps very straightforward if you have a "normal kitchen
> environment."
>
> I have been using Mike Avery's recipe
> http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html sans kneading, proofing 12 hours +/-
> , stretch and fold, final rise and bake. Twelve hours was too long for my
> kitchen environment with an initial dough temperature of 70F. So next time
> I will shorten to 8 or 9. My guess is that I will get it to work after a
> try or two more.
>
> I hope that this helps. Regardless, take what makes sense, ignore the rest.
> I cannot claim satisfactory success with anything I have tried to date in
> these experiments.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray

Good post.

One thing I might add is you can also manipulate your hydration,
thicker is slower. So if you were to build a small thick sponge, or
even a small, dense dough, and when it matured, add water and flour,
you have added time and beneficial ripening impact to your dough.

There's a lot of ways to skin this cat <g>.

Will (who used to live in hot'Lanta..)

WRK wrote:
[..]
> 1) If I understand correctly, and I hope Dick or others will correct me if I
> am wrong, it is not unusual in some kitchen proofing environments to have
> sourdough yeast and LB's doubling roughly every hour or so. So the
> difference between a 20% inoculation and a 10% inoculation is roughly one
> generation time. A doubling. That doubling can be as short as one hour in
> the right temperature environment. (See:
> http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/table.html ).

How were those data obtained? Probably in mono culture. Does it apply
for mixed sourdough cultures as well?

And - multiplication rates in sourdoughs are dependent from inoculation
size. Smaller gets you higher multiplications. That's not linear.

And - running at highest performance may not necessarily give you the
best taste.

And - your temp - 78/80 F sounds just right for sourdough, saves you
money not buying a heater.

Looks like you're doing just fine, higher ash content & temperature
taking...

Samartha

On November 11, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote:

> How were those data obtained? Probably in mono culture. Does it apply
> for mixed sourdough cultures as well?

My inferences were based on my understanding of Michael Ganzel's work. As
you clearly and correctly indicate my assumptions may not be even remotely
valid since his work concerned a specific culture.

> And - multiplication rates in sourdoughs are dependent from inoculation
> size. Smaller gets you higher multiplications. That's not linear.

Correct, as I understand it. A doubling as I stated is geometric not
linear.
>
> And - running at highest performance may not necessarily give you the
> best taste.

Agreed. Good stuff takes time.

> And - your temp - 78/80 F sounds just right for sourdough, saves you
> money not buying a heater.

But it sacrifices a longer slower rise which we both agree increases the
flavor.

> Looks like you're doing just fine, higher ash content & temperature
> taking...

Thanks. I inferred that information recently from you, Mike and Hans in one
of my tangential go around my elbow to scratch my butt bunch of questions
threads.

The biggest point of your reply, imho, is to again stress your good advice
to read posts with a soft focus. I again assert that point cannot be
overstressed to readers concerning my posts.

Regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:

>
>
> ... 2) The FAQ's and Ed Wood's culture rejuvenation methods both use a
> roughly 5% inoculation of old starter to re-grow the culture. Based
> upon that alone, I would personally not go below 5%. Others with more
> experience may set me straight on the bottom limit.


Some unknowns are the condition of the starter and the quantity and type
of critters on the flour. At some low level of inoculation percentage
you risk the possibility of critters on the flour overwhelming the
sourdough culture. This is sometimes fixable with continued
refreshment, but sometimes not. 5% is a good rule of thumb, but you can
go much lower with a strong culture and the right flour.


>
>
> ...Whether chemical development of the dough correlates with the yeast /
> Lb's growth curve in any random sample dough, I do not know.
>
>

If it does, then there is a good chance that the correlation is just
that - chance. You have to be very careful trying to extrapolate
information from charts, graphs and scientific writings. They may be
very interesting and even true and factual yet still have very little to
do with what is actually going on in your culture, dough and kitchen.

You will learn more practical knowledge by baking bread and observing
your culture, dough and bread in the context of your own kitchen than
you will studying charts and graphs.

>
> ...as Hans stated in
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...392ad12ba0e52:
> "Try mixing a small amount of flour and water into a dough (no start,
> yeast, etc.) and let it sit for a couple of hours and observe
> the development." Gluten development will occur sans a leavening agent.
>

It is true that gluten development(and other things) will occur with
just the addition of water to the flour. The gluten development will be
enhanced by the addition of leaven. My experience is with sourdough
leaven. It is not clear how much of the enhanced development is due to
organic stuff generated by fermentation and how much by physical
movement caused by the fermentation gases trying to exit.

It is just as helpful and a lot easier to understand if you just
consider the enhanced development to be caused by the Bread Faeries
dancing in joyful anticipation of raising the dough.


>
> ...I am not sure if any of this address your question concerning converting
> the recipe in the video to one made with sourdough.
>

It is very possible to bake a loaf of sourdough without kneading. If
you want to do it with just one slight stretch and fold, you are going
to have to experiment in your own environment, Particularly if you are
trying for a certain time frame.

What I would do. Keep in mind that temperature is probably your best
tool to influence the dough. I would not use less than 1/2 cup active
starter for each loaf. Since I would want to end up with a fairly slack
dough, I would avoid low hydration steps because hydrating very stiff
dough is a worse chore than kneading.

My sister has bad hands. She makes Dick Adams pan bread with no kneading
, just a short mix by hand and using two or three stretch and folds and
a long rise. No changes to the original recipe except she is probably a
little lighter on the flour.

Regards,

Charles

On November 11, 2006, Charles Perry wrote:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...754ba575d18a86

Thank you very much Charles.

Best regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:

>> And - multiplication rates in sourdoughs are dependent from inoculation
>> size. Smaller gets you higher multiplications. That's not linear.
>
> Correct, as I understand it. A doubling as I stated is geometric not
> linear.

You misunderstand. Correct would be: growth rate _changes_ depending on
inoculum size.

If you have smaller inoculum, the critters grow more in the same time as
they would with larger inoculum.

IOW - the generation time is not constant across inoculation size. It is
shorter with smaller inoculum and will also change over time due to
growth conditions, probably mainly acidity increase. Your conclusion and
train of thought:

> So the
> difference between a 20% inoculation and a 10% inoculation is roughly one
> generation time.

is incorrect, not only from assuming ideal conditions but also because
the generation time depends on inoculation size, besides other factors.

Thats because you wrote:

> 1) If I understand correctly, and I hope Dick or others will correct me if I
> am wrong,

IMO, all those "technicalities" may contribute to general understanding
what is going on and about the complexity involved and maybe help
treating your starter more appropriately.

If can help with this:

> I cannot claim satisfactory success with anything I have tried to date in
> these experiments.

I doubt it.

Samartha

On November 11, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...f659bfcb587bc4

Hopefully, someone at some future time who stumbles on my post will read
through and find yours and Charles'. Thanks for helping and clarifying.

I had presumed that Ticker was helping Charles clean up my messes in the
litter (group) box do you have help, too <g>?

Thanks,

Ray

Charles Perry wrote:
> On and on:
>

Well, I asked Ticker her opinion on how much I should cut back on the
starter in a standard recipe to convert the NYT no-knead recipe to
sourdough and she said that she would probably increase the starter
instead. Of course I fell for it and asked why.

Well, she replied, it is because you are such a cheapskate. I should
have walked away then, but I asked her to elaborate a bit. She said
because I am too cheap to put the air on early in the summer and late to
turn the furnace on in the fall. And, even when I do heat or cool, the
house is too cold in the winter and too warm in the summer. Whats that
got to do with the price of tea in china or no-knead bread I said. She
always has an answer and this time she shared it with me.

Her Idea was that the house temperature was so variable that she would
put plenty of starter in the dough and do most of the resting rise after
mixing in the refrigerator where the temperature was pretty much stable
year 'round. She said that once she got the process outlined, she would
vary the time after mixing and the refrigerator and the time warming up
after the refrigerator rest to compensate for the household temperatures.

Disclaimer. I have not done this and I normally try to confine myself
to what I have actually done or observed. However, Ticker has been quiet
lately so I thought to pass on her opinion.

Regards,

Charles

On November 12, 2006, Charles Perry wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...da7fa100405523

Hi Charles:

Thank you very, very much for transcribing Ticker's thoughts. It is
extremely helpful, practical and useful.

It is amazing how kind and forgiving Ticker is considering that you had her
fixed when she did not think she was broken <g>. That is a most admirable
trait. It appears that she has taught you much.

Best regards,

Ray

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message nk.net...

> Well, I asked Ticker her opinion on how much I should cut back on the
> starter in a standard recipe to convert the NYT no-knead recipe to
> sourdough and she said that she would probably increase the starter
> instead.

Muffin Man has no idea why there should be yeast or soudough
culture. Just make a big wad of pastry glue and toss it onto a really
hot surface. You could probably do the same thing with blenderized
dry cat chow. Possibly would work on a slightly rancid dead mouse.

Pop!

It is a mystery which has been revealed to the world by Orville
Redenbacher.

--
Dicky and MM ( http://home.att.net/~muffkat/ )

On November 11, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...f659bfcb587bc4
and I replied in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...c3e06b6f968507

I have located the source of my previous conjecture he
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...43369cd83cc7eb

"So much for the "in vitro" theory. Surprisingly, Markus has found
most of the predictions to come true when he was looking at the cell
counts at different temperature, size of inoculum, salt
concentration, and pH in rye dough. The variation of the inoculum
size was interesting: If he reduced the inoculum size by 2, he had to
wait almost exactly one generation time (one doubling time of the
lactobacilli) longer until the dough has reached the same cell
counts, pH, titrable acidity, and so on as the dough with the higher
inoculum. This was true for inoculum sizes between 1% and 20%: at 50%
inoculum, the pH is so low that the lactobacilli don't really grow
well, and at an inoculum size of 0.1%, the pH and/or the oxygen
pressure in the dough are so high that the cells have a lag-time (see
above) of an hour. Thus, a scanty inoculum means one generation time
longer fermentation.

The generation time of L. sanfranciscensis in rye dough at 28 C is a
little less than an hour (figures may vary with different strains in
different flours, but it's not much more or less than that), so if
the inoculation size is reduced from 20 to 2.5%, it'll take about
three hours more until the dough is ripe."

The above quote is within Subject 39 of the FAQ's: What factors affect
microbial growth in sourdough?
It is signed by Michael and I presumed that it was written by Michael
Ganzle.

Obviously, either I did a poor job communicating my understanding of that
information or I didn't get it. The interested reader is referred to
Subject 39 at:
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatfact...microbial.html

Regards,

Ray

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.30.1163527517.84584.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> On November 11, 2006, Samartha Deva wrote in:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...f659bfcb587bc4
> and I replied in:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...c3e06b6f968507
>
> I have located the source of my previous conjecture he
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...43369cd83cc7eb
>
> "So much for the "in vitro" theory. Surprisingly, Markus has found
> most of the predictions to come true when he was looking at the cell
> counts at different temperature, size of inoculum, salt
> concentration, and pH in rye dough. The variation of the inoculum
> size was interesting: If he reduced the inoculum size by 2, he had to
> wait almost exactly one generation time (one doubling time of the
> lactobacilli) longer until the dough has reached the same cell
> counts, pH, titrable acidity, and so on as the dough with the higher
> inoculum. This was true for inoculum sizes between 1% and 20%: at 50%
> inoculum, the pH is so low that the lactobacilli don't really grow
> well, and at an inoculum size of 0.1%, the pH and/or the oxygen
> pressure in the dough are so high that the cells have a lag-time (see
> above) of an hour. Thus, a scanty inoculum means one generation time
> longer fermentation.

Huh?
>
> The generation time of L. sanfranciscensis in rye dough at 28 C is a
> little less than an hour (figures may vary with different strains in
> different flours, but it's not much more or less than that), so if
> the inoculation size is reduced from 20 to 2.5%, it'll take about
> three hours more until the dough is ripe."
>
> The above quote is within Subject 39 of the FAQ's: What factors affect
> microbial growth in sourdough?
> It is signed by Michael and I presumed that it was written by Michael
> Ganzle.

I'm giving up.

I'll just carry on making bread - good bread.

Mary

On November 14, 2006, Mary Fisher wrote:

> I'm giving up.
>
> I'll just carry on making bread - good bread.
>
> Mary

Hey Mary:

Some of us just always wonder why. However, often it has little to do with
making good bread.

With palms facing you, firmly press both little fingers together and form a
large cup squeezing all fingers together.
Scoop out three handfuls of flour
Add one of water
Measure a thumbnail sized mound of salt in the palm
Add a half-fist sized piece of old dough
Mix well adding a little more flour or water as necessary,
You know the rest<g>.

Regards,

Ray

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.31.1163539933.84584.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> On November 14, 2006, Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>> I'm giving up.
>>
>> I'll just carry on making bread - good bread.
>>
>> Mary
>
> Hey Mary:
>
> Some of us just always wonder why. However, often it has little to do
> with making good bread.
>
> With palms facing you, firmly press both little fingers together and form
> a large cup squeezing all fingers together.
> Scoop out three handfuls of flour
> Add one of water
> Measure a thumbnail sized mound of salt in the palm
> Add a half-fist sized piece of old dough
> Mix well adding a little more flour or water as necessary,
> You know the rest<g>.

Yes, that's the one :-)

Mary
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray
>

Hello Ray & all;

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.31.1163539933.84584.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> On November 14, 2006, Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>> I'm giving up.
>>
>> I'll just carry on making bread - good bread.
>>
>> Mary
>
> Hey Mary:
>
> Some of us just always wonder why. However, often it has little to do
> with making good bread.
>
> With palms facing you, firmly press both little fingers together and form
> a large cup squeezing all fingers together.
> Scoop out three handfuls of flour
> Add one of water
> Measure a thumbnail sized mound of salt in the palm
> Add a half-fist sized piece of old dough
> Mix well adding a little more flour or water as necessary,
> You know the rest<g>.

Whaaaat? You speak heresy sir! Just who do you think you are? An expert?
A professional? A better-than-the-other bakers, baker?

Nay, nave! Thou *must* use a titanium framed, T304 stainless clad, diamond
polished, digital scale with at minimum an Intel P4 for a minimum resolution
of 0.001 grams, a capacity of at least 285KG, a USB 2.0 link, and able to
display that in at least 4 languages in no less than 6-mass units, which
must set you back at least $1,875.00; or it's simply *not* up to the task of
making bread in *this* August forum...(:-o)!

Then those exquisitely measured materials must be mixed for periods of
upwards of several hours in nothing less than the most powerful mixer (at
least 40 standard, US, "horse-power") that can be obtained. The various
rising phases can only be done in environmentally safe, multi-set
temperature controlled proofing boxes, with each step carefully timed to
millisecond precision. Only the finest Danish banneton's constructed
entirely of imported French willow may be used to conduct the final rise.
To insure a minimum acceptable quality and finish, those must be protected
by the finest Italian linens sumptuously adorned with the rarest of
early-harvest Japanese rice flour. Be sure to fire-up your hand-built brick
oven at least 22 hours before you intend to bake, so that the several tons
of stone can be carefully heated to just below the melting point of lead--as
measured by your remote reading, digital, tau-band infra-red thermometer of
course.

Of course it goes without saying that only the freshest, organically grown,
hand-harvested, spring wheat from the south-side of the most gentle of hills
found in only one place in eastern Montana will do. Milled fresh on the day
of "capture", it must be used without undue delay. Without all of the
preceding, you just won't be able to come up with a loaf of bread suitable
for the likes of this August body...(:-o)!

Sorry. I just couldn't help myself...(:-{})!

Yep. The way you described it above, Ray, is just about exactly how I make
my breads. Simple. Easy. Do it anywhere with just about nothing at all.
Inexpensive...and ever so satisfying (to make and to eat). Besides flour,
water, and salt; all I require is a bowl, and an oven. Anything else is
simply gravy...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty -- somewhat east of Everett, Wa. at the moment...

"news" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yep. The way you described it above, Ray, is just about exactly how I
> make my breads. Simple. Easy. Do it anywhere with just about nothing at
> all. Inexpensive...and ever so satisfying (to make and to eat). Besides
> flour, water, and salt; all I require is a bowl, and an oven. Anything
> else is simply gravy...(:-o)!

I don't know about gravy but otherwise what you describe is how I do it -
but with a starter too.

Today I had to include some rye flour because my mixture was too wet and I'd
run out of wheat flour but it's looking very good.

The first sourdough starter I was given, by a very good friend, came with
masses of instructions of how to keep it fed, watered and at the right
temperature. I obviously didn't follow the instructions because it died.
After that I was very chary of acquiring another. Only when I bought the
Bread Builders (for information not about bread but about building our oven)
did I have a go at making another starter. That was quite a few weeks ago
and the author did say that it would get better and better. It has, while
I've had good results from it in the meantime today I noticed that it looked
different, more lively and a different texture whe I poured it out of its
jar.

Our forebears worked by rule of thumb and made good bread, I'm sure that
exact modern recipes work well too. If it was good enough for both Grandmas
and my mother it's good enough for me.

Oh - my starter was all used, then I took a couple of spoonsful of the dough
to put back in the jar with a little water and then back in the fridge. Each
day I'll put more water and flour into it.

What could be easier?

Mary
>
>
> L8r all,
> Dusty -- somewhat east of Everett, Wa. at the moment...
>
>

On November 14, 2006, Mary wrote:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...4a2f0742200378

> Yes, that's the one :-)

Before I get appropriately corrected, you do realize Mary that those
instructions are specific for people like yourself in cooler climates.
Those of us in the warmer regions only need a walnut sized lump of old dough
:-)

Regards,

Ray

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.35.1163614251.84584.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> On November 14, 2006, Mary wrote:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...4a2f0742200378
>
>> Yes, that's the one :-)
>
> Before I get appropriately corrected, you do realize Mary that those
> instructions are specific for people like yourself in cooler climates.
> Those of us in the warmer regions only need a walnut sized lump of old
> dough :-)

I didn't know anyone had said anything about a walnut sized lump of old
dough ...

Mary

On November 15, 2006, Mary Fisher wrote:

> I didn't know anyone had said anything about a walnut sized lump of old
> dough ...

Sorry Mary, poor joke. Just like skilled bakers, comedians, too have
nothing to fear from my meager abilities <g>.

Regards,

Ray

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.36.1163616389.84584.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> On November 15, 2006, Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>> I didn't know anyone had said anything about a walnut sized lump of old
>> dough ...
>
> Sorry Mary, poor joke. Just like skilled bakers, comedians, too have
> nothing to fear from my meager abilities <g>.

Oh - still don't understand but I believe you :-)

The only walnut sized object I'd kept hearing about recently is a prostate
gland. Spouse's was far bigger than that when they ripped it out a few weeks
ago, the surgeon told us yesterday :-)

Mary
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray

Mary Fisher wrote:

>
> "news" > wrote in message
> ...

> I don't know about gravy but otherwise what you describe is how I do it -
> but with a starter too.
>

but with a starter too. "that also not too Mary"

Joe Umstead
>

>
> Mary

"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message
...
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>>
>> "news" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>> I don't know about gravy but otherwise what you describe is how I do it -
>> but with a starter too.
>>
>
> but with a starter too. "that also not too Mary"

I'm English, I speak and write English :-)

Mary
>
> Joe Umstead
>>
>
>>
>> Mary
>

Charles Perry wrote:
> Stuff


Well, I baked the NYT bread recipe. Once as described in their
printed recipe and got OK bread ,but it was a difficult dough/batter
to handle. Then I baked a double batch with some good Dakota Maid
flour. I used all-purpose , but it is as good as some bread flour
and got better taste and a little easier handling because I scaled
back the water a tad. When I doubled the yeast recipe, I did not
fully double the yeast. I used 3/8 tsp yeast for the double batch.
However, I had the best results with sourdough starter.

I used six cups of flour (28 ounces by weight)
Three cups of water that weighed 22.6 ounces ( what can I say, Must
not have been full cups)
1/4 cup of starter that I did not weigh.
I tablespoon of salt

The above stirred up into a dough that was thick enough that it did
not self- level until it had fermented for several hours. It started
out a bit thicker than my second batch of yeasted dough, but ended up
just as slack or even looser. I did the initial mix about noon
yesterday and did the folding step about ten AM today. The dough
was so loose that I repeated the folding step with a short (5 Min)
rest between the folding. I rounded up two loaves and put them in
linen lined baskets to rise.

The house temperatures are 68F days and 62F nights. It took three
hours for the final rise. The dough was so loose that it was not
possible for me to get a decent slash on the dough, but I gave it a try
anyway. Probably I should have tried a scissors instead of the razor blade.

I baked the bread in my poor mans cloche. I preheated the oven and
cloche to 450F and turned the heat down to 425 after 1/2 hour when I
removed the cloche cover. The bread looked nice except for the
"rustic" slashes and tasted OK. There was a nice open hole structure
to the crumb and a crisp crust. I got a better rise and taste from
the sourdough. It was not at all sour and that is the way I like my
plain white bread.

I will not make the bread again with yeast and probably not again for
a time with the sourdough. I think that Dick's pan bread is just as
easy to make and tastes even better. I can make the pan bread with
almost no kneading with two or three stretch and fold steps and the
pan bread is nicer for sandwiches.

Anyway, my sister wants more oatmeal bread and my bride wants me to
make the wild rice, cranberry-pecan bread for the holiday meals along
with the usual dinner rolls. I am off of the NYT bread until my new
cast iron Dutch oven gets here for my birthday or Christmas.

Regards,

Charles

> Anyway, my sister wants more oatmeal bread and my bride wants me to
> make the wild rice, cranberry-pecan bread for the holiday meals along
> with the usual dinner rolls. I am off of the NYT bread until my new
> cast iron Dutch oven gets here for my birthday or Christmas.


Charles -

I've been looking for a good dense cranberry nut yeast rolls --- could
you share your recipe.

Thanks.
Michael D

mjd wrote:
>
> I've been looking for a good dense cranberry nut yeast rolls --- could
> you share your recipe.
>


I use the Wild Rice, Pecan and Dried Cranberry recipe that is on the
King Arthur Website. I just double the starter and ignore the yeast. It
is very dense and takes just this side of forever to rise. If you do
not have a lot of patience, you can leave in the yeast.

Regards,

Charles

On November 12, 2006, Ticker's Sous-Chef Charles <g> wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...da7fa100405523

Hi Ticker:

Thank you so much for the helpful suggestion. I built a two stage starter
targeting a 40% inoculation.

Stage one to plateau/ partial collapse; stage two to peak. It was
incorporated into a 1000g batch of dough with a target hydration of 72% and
a final dough temperature of 72F. General mix using spoonula until all
flour was just wet. Rest one hour at room temperature followed by 15 hours
in refrigerator.

Removed from refrigerator (bubbles visible under surface of the dough).
Gave one hour at room temperature followed by NY Times stretch/fold/shape
methodology (cool dough is easy to handle for me). Two and one half hour
rise followed by NY Times baking method.

Pictures are he
http://sourdoughbaking.blogspot.com/#116380461752691128

It is pretty evident by the uneven distribution of the whole wheat flour
that I could have mixed a little more <g>.

Thank you so very much Ticker for this wonderful, helpful suggestion. I
have only done this once so dumb luck could be the reason for the success.
Since the oven will be baking pumpernickel for the next 24-hours,
replication will not be until later.

Best regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:

>
> Hi Ticker:
>
> Thank you so much for the helpful suggestion. I built a two stage
> starter targeting a 40% inoculation...
>
> ...Thank you so very much Ticker for this wonderful, helpful suggestion.
>


Well, how did it taste? I was not impressed with any improvement when I
made SD NYT method with a reduced inoculation that is a bit more
intuitive than Ticker's idea.

I passed your comments on to Ticker and she just sits there grinning at
me. I was going to ask her if the cat had her tongue, but thought
better of it.

Regards,

Charles

On November 17, 2006, Charles Perry wrote:

> Well, how did it taste? I was not impressed with any improvement when I
> made SD NYT method with a reduced inoculation that is a bit more
> intuitive than Ticker's idea.

Good crackly crust and very chewy crumb. Mild flavor not overly pronounced
by any means. Suits me and fellow bread eaters in this house to a "T."
Two people ate half of it at dinner tonight. Only problem may be when the
refrigerator is low on free space.

I think the crust is better than my cold start bakes and hot water in a pan
on the oven floor. Definitely more open crumb than anything I make kneading
and punching down, but that could be simply a lack of skill. I am not in
the same bread baking league as most of you all.

Will definitely use again and again. It's so easy. As I said, looking at
the poor distribution of the whole wheat flour indicates how little mixing
was done. The most hands-on, time consuming part was building the starter
:-).

I used a basket versus a towel which made it easy to dump into the pot. I
baked it in my vintage Wagner Ware Magnalite Dutch Oven pictured he
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5...320/InOven.jpg. It worked fine.

Please scratch Ticker on the head, belly or another place she pleases for
me. Her insight helped me a bunch.

Many thanks,

Ray

I have continued to make a variation of the NY Times bread based upon
Ticker's advice:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...da7fa100405523
with some assorted variations on:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...7c6068be57e760 and
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...95d287702a6223

It has become my preferred method for making and baking 80% white flour 20%
whole wheat sourdough bread at this point in time. However, that may change
when summer returns!

The bread is excellent; outstanding crackly crust, chewy crumb with large,
irregular holes. It was well received at yesterday's get together. I never
slash, allowing the dough fairies to plan their own escape routes which so
far are aesthetically superior to any slash that I could perform.

I also started pre-heating the oven and pot to 475F (246C) for roughly 30
minutes versus the suggested 450F (232C). I assumed that I would lose
roughly 25F (-4C) removing and returning the pot to the oven. I also
assumed that my home oven could not approach the recovery capacity of the
one used in the Sullivan Street Bakery.

I re-set the oven to 450F (232C) after returning the pot and dough to the
oven. The oven indicates that that loss allowance is extremely close for my
technique and oven.

Like so many other posters it is nice to see so much interest in this
subject. Finally, I suggest that those looking for cast iron Dutch ovens
keep their eyes on the thrift stores and yard sales. I do see them in
thrift stores here from time to time for very few $.

Regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:

> I also started pre-heating the oven and pot to 475F (246C) for roughly
> 30 minutes versus the suggested 450F (232C). I assumed that I would
> lose roughly 25F (-4C) removing and returning the pot to the oven. I
> also assumed that my home oven could not approach the recovery capacity
> of the one used in the Sullivan Street Bakery.

Actually if you recall the baker suggested 500 or 525F. The writer
dropped it down to 450F and I speculate he or someone in the editing
pipeline did this for some misguided safety concern (or perhaps to avoid
fielding questions from people whose ovens only go up to 450). Just
crank it up to "blazing hot" and you're OK I think.

Incidentally my oven is generally 25F cooler than the dial says. If
you're going to be fastidious make sure you have a $5 oven thermometer too.