I recently posted a topic to get advise on curing meat in temperatures
that are refered to as being in the danger zone where harmful bacteria
can easily form. Basically it was agreed that it was unsafe and risky
at best.

A friend has continued with curing anyway after much reading on the
internet that seems to say that such harmful bacteria do form but are
destroyed or renedered harmless during the cooking process of the meat
(tempuratures over 160c). He's working on the theory that proper
cooking will make the meat safe.

He put several hams in a large plastic drum of strong brine - they
smelled really bad after 2-3 weeks but that smell left after he skimmed
off the fat that had surfaced on the brine. He's now thinking maybe the
meat's OK and that the smell was just the fat exposed to the air and
out of the brine solution.

Sorry to be long-winded but does anybody know if the cooking process
indeed will make his hams harmless to eat. Or is he going to just
uncover some rotten meat in that drum.

Thanks in advance for any help.

angkorman wrote:

> I recently posted a topic to get advise on curing meat in temperatures
> that are refered to as being in the danger zone where harmful bacteria
> can easily form. Basically it was agreed that it was unsafe and risky
> at best.

i would think one way to do it safely is to check on how the locals do
it and what techniques they use.

if they don't, then that might just be a message from the universe.

b/

angkorman wrote:

> I recently posted a topic to get advise on curing meat in temperatures
> that are refered to as being in the danger zone where harmful bacteria
> can easily form. Basically it was agreed that it was unsafe and risky
> at best.

i would think one way to do it safely is to check on how the locals do
it and what techniques they use.

if they don't, then that might just be a message from the universe.

b/

spotted wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2005 21:06:40 -0700 in
> .com>, "angkorman"
> > graced the world with this thought:
>
>
>>He's working on the theory that proper
>>cooking will make the meat safe.
>
>
> He's working on a false premise. If poisons have formed, no amount of
> cooking will make them safe.
> I make dry and semi-dry sausages on a regular basis. Proper curing
> with proper salts and bacteria cultures, along with temperatures work
> fine... but it's not schlock art, it's something that you have to have
> the proper equipment and knowledge for. Not a big deal, just a
> requirement. If he thinks "proper cooking" is going to make them safe,
> he's apparently missing something in the knowledge department on the
> subject.
Actually, boiling was recommended to destroy potential botulinum toxin
in low acid canned foods.
Ellen

Thanks all for the replies. Meat is preserved locally but it's cut very
thin salted and sun dried. Nothing like hams in brine. Appreciate the
advise that cooking won't make it safe.

Thanks all for the replies. Meat is preserved locally but it's cut very
thin salted and sun dried. Nothing like hams in brine. Appreciate the
advise that cooking won't make it safe.

il 17 Apr 2005 21:06:40 -0700, "angkorman" wrote:

> I recently posted a topic to get advise on curing meat in temperatures
> that are refered to as being in the danger zone where harmful bacteria
> can easily form. Basically it was agreed that it was unsafe and risky
> at best.
>
> A friend has continued with curing anyway after much reading on the
> internet that seems to say that such harmful bacteria do form but are
> destroyed or renedered harmless during the cooking process of the meat
> (tempuratures over 160c). He's working on the theory that proper
> cooking will make the meat safe.

The only problem with that is that sometimes it's the toxins produced
by the bacteria that harm, not the living bacteria. Heat may not
destroy the toxins and I imagine some are tasteless.

> He put several hams in a large plastic drum of strong brine - they
> smelled really bad after 2-3 weeks but that smell left after he skimmed
> off the fat that had surfaced on the brine. He's now thinking maybe the
> meat's OK and that the smell was just the fat exposed to the air and
> out of the brine solution.
>
> Sorry to be long-winded but does anybody know if the cooking process
> indeed will make his hams harmless to eat. Or is he going to just
> uncover some rotten meat in that drum.

He could get the meat tested, to know one way or the other.

I think there's more to do than just brine when it comes to meat. And
even then there's a time time limit to storage.

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il 17 Apr 2005 21:06:40 -0700, "angkorman" wrote:

> I recently posted a topic to get advise on curing meat in temperatures
> that are refered to as being in the danger zone where harmful bacteria
> can easily form. Basically it was agreed that it was unsafe and risky
> at best.
>
> A friend has continued with curing anyway after much reading on the
> internet that seems to say that such harmful bacteria do form but are
> destroyed or renedered harmless during the cooking process of the meat
> (tempuratures over 160c). He's working on the theory that proper
> cooking will make the meat safe.

The only problem with that is that sometimes it's the toxins produced
by the bacteria that harm, not the living bacteria. Heat may not
destroy the toxins and I imagine some are tasteless.

> He put several hams in a large plastic drum of strong brine - they
> smelled really bad after 2-3 weeks but that smell left after he skimmed
> off the fat that had surfaced on the brine. He's now thinking maybe the
> meat's OK and that the smell was just the fat exposed to the air and
> out of the brine solution.
>
> Sorry to be long-winded but does anybody know if the cooking process
> indeed will make his hams harmless to eat. Or is he going to just
> uncover some rotten meat in that drum.

He could get the meat tested, to know one way or the other.

I think there's more to do than just brine when it comes to meat. And
even then there's a time time limit to storage.

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:31:01 GMT, ellen wickberg wrote:

> Actually, boiling was recommended to destroy potential botulinum toxin
> in low acid canned foods.
> Ellen

But remember, boiling a liquid is not the same as boiling a large 3
dimensional object. It would take a long time to get internal meat
temp. up to boiling point. And is that high enough for meat?
--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:31:01 GMT, ellen wickberg wrote:

> Actually, boiling was recommended to destroy potential botulinum toxin
> in low acid canned foods.
> Ellen

But remember, boiling a liquid is not the same as boiling a large 3
dimensional object. It would take a long time to get internal meat
temp. up to boiling point. And is that high enough for meat?
--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il 21 Apr 2005 03:16:41 -0700, "angkorman" wrote:

> Thanks all for the replies. Meat is preserved locally but it's cut very
> thin salted and sun dried. Nothing like hams in brine. Appreciate the
> advise that cooking won't make it safe.

May I suggest you read the following text. It refers to numerous USDA
pamphlets on the topic of meat curing.

4. Cured/Smoked Meats
4.1. Ham
Ham is cured pork from the hind leg of the hog. Picnic shoulder or
picnic ham is made from the front leg of the hog (USDA FSIS 1995c).
Ham varieties may or may not be smoked and are available in many
regional
and ethnic styles (Alden 2001b). Curing solutions for hams typically
contain salt, sodium nitrate, sugar, and seasonings (USDA FSIS
1995c). Dry-cured ham includes country ham and proscuitto. The dry
cure mixture is rubbed onto the pork surface and the meat is cured
(at or below 40°F) from weeks to a year or
more. During this aging process, the moisture is reduced by 18-25%,
making these hams safe at room temperature (USDA FSIS 1995c).
Brine-cured ham includes culatello and Irish Hams. Usually the fresh
meat is both injected with brine and submerged into the brine to
allow the cure to reach all of the meat (
USDA FSIS 1995c).

It came from
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...smoke_ref.html
or that uga.ed site anyway.

There's also http://www.fisa.usda.gov (food safety) with even a meat
hotline! :-)

And then consider dry curing :-)
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/foods/458-223/458-223.html

Although this one has lots of brine recipes.
http://www.thewestcoaststore.com/recipe_brining.html

me, I'll keep going to the store...
--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

Thanks very much Loki. I appreciate the info and links.

il 25 Apr 2005 17:46:36 -0700, "angkorman" wrote:

> Thanks very much Loki. I appreciate the info and links.

We can't have you and your friend carking over from bad meat now can
we? :-)))

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]