Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
(especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not
to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm

So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855
when preparing Peking Duck?
See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp

I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and
have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in
boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before
cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this,
leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this
for over a hundred years..."

Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a
waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again.

A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze.

Jack Curry

"Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote in message
...
> Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
> (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us
not
> to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
> See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm
>
> So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855
> when preparing Peking Duck?
> See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp
>
> I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years,
and
> have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in
> boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before
> cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this,
> leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this
> for over a hundred years..."
>
> Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a
> waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again.
>
> A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze.
>
> Jack Curry
>
>

Damn, Jack, why can't ya ask something easy, like the meaning of life, or
why we sleep for one-third of our lives?

It's a restaurant standard, a rule that's important where public safety is
involved. I know, I know, it's trendy nowadays to second-guess anyone with
expertise in any given field, but bad food is serious business.

40 to 140 is a rule that's kinda the greatest common denominator. There are
exceptions, some people don't get sick, others do. I know I let things
slide at home that I'd never do if I were having company and would really
never do if I were running a restaurant.

That said, 40 to 140 is gospel for restaurants (liability) as 1 case of food
poisoning is 1 case, 2 cases is an outbreak. We all bend the rules in
private life, eating that macaroni salad that's been outside at the picnic
all day, whatever. Then again, there's poisoining where you have to go to
the E-room, and there's the kind where you just should keep another magazine
in the bathroom.

Personally, I've gotten really sick from eating the marinara sauce that I
left on the stove overnight, but I've eaten a bologna sandwich that sat on
my dashboard for half a day with no ill effect. Go figure. Probably all
the chemicals in the bologna.

It's a rule that's a best fit for all situations food-wise. Your call, if
you've been successful, I can't tell you you're wrong.

Jack

Jack Curry wrote:
(snip)
> A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze.
>
> Jack Curry
>
>

IIRC, duck don't generally harbor salmonella; they have a natural
immunity or ability to shed it.

--
(signature here)

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:19:43 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry
> wrote:

>Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
>(especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not
>to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
>See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm
>
>So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855
>when preparing Peking Duck?
>See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp
>
>I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and
>have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in
>boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before
>cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this,
>leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this
>for over a hundred years..."
>
>Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a
>waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again.

Americans digestive and immune systems are whimpy because of our
breeding and overly cautious ways (much of which is dictated by the
good 'ol U.S. governemnt).

If you were raised in Asia or the East, your digestive/immune system
would be much more sturdy. The U.S. has harvested a nation of
hyperphobic and obsessive compulsive germ freaks and whimps.

-sw

In article >, "Jack
Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote:

> Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
> (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not
> to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
> See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm
>
> So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855
> when preparing Peking Duck?
> See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp
>
> I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and
> have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in
> boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before
> cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this,
> leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this
> for over a hundred years..."
>
> Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a
> waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again.
>
> A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze.
>
If the 40-140 rule were ironclad we as a species would have been
extinct eons ago.
Some folks are delicate and get the trots from glancing at a glass of
sour milk. Some folks can eat buzzard puke.
I've never paid for my sins of breaking of this rule but you need to be
careful if you're feeding this duck to dinner guests. They may not have
the intestinal fortitude (literally!) to stomach (HAH HAH) the results.

At least give 'em a heads up.

(monroe(forewarned is legally asscovered)

Monroe, of course... wrote:
> In article >, "Jack

Snipped my own BS -

> If the 40-140 rule were ironclad we as a species would have been
> extinct eons ago.
> Some folks are delicate and get the trots from glancing at a glass of
> sour milk. Some folks can eat buzzard puke.
> I've never paid for my sins of breaking of this rule but you need to
> be careful if you're feeding this duck to dinner guests. They may not
> have the intestinal fortitude (literally!) to stomach (HAH HAH) the
> results.
>
> At least give 'em a heads up.
>
> (monroe(forewarned is legally asscovered)

Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin'
ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in the
danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have taken
up residence.
No?
That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big
enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of the
restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks. Apparently the FDA has no power
over the Chinois, neh? And neither do micro-organisms.
All this from a guy who got Hepatitis A from eating clam pasta in Venice.
Jack Curry
-slow learner, but now immune to Hep A for life-

In article >, "Jack
Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote:

> Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin'
> ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in the
> danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have taken
> up residence.
> No?
> That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big
> enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of the
> restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks. Apparently the FDA has no power
> over the Chinois, neh? And neither do micro-organisms.
> All this from a guy who got Hepatitis A from eating clam pasta in Venice.
> Jack Curry
> -slow learner, but now immune to Hep A for life-

There's always the tales of the English hanging partridges until nearly
rotten and all.....
The glaze could help keep the microbes at bay too.
Hep A is one of those bugs that's spread primarily through fecal matter
of those infected. Most likely someone in the galley of the restaurant
dosed you-hence having nothing to really do with the clam sauce
itself...
A duck from a reputable place treated in the time honored
tradition<bows> should be no prob.
I'd still tell guests how it was done.

monroe(immunity is good)

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:13:11 GMT, "Monroe, of course..."
> wrote:

>If the 40-140 rule were ironclad we as a species would have been
>extinct eons ago.

I've been running at around 98.6F for 36 years and other than maybe
some occssional bad breath, I haven't rotted away.

-sw

>Some folks are delicate and get the trots from glancing at a glass of
>sour milk. Some folks can eat buzzard puke.
>I've never paid for my sins of breaking of this rule but you need to be
>careful if you're feeding this duck to dinner guests. They may not have
>the intestinal fortitude (literally!) to stomach (HAH HAH) the results.
>
>At least give 'em a heads up.
>
>(monroe(forewarned is legally asscovered)

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:59:12 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry
> wrote:

>Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin'
>ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in the
>danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have taken
>up residence.
>No?

Aaron's info was correct. Ducks seem to shed at least salmonella.

>That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big
>enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of the
>restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks.

All the ones I see hanging have alreday been roasted (some are white,
some are red). They usually have heat lamps above.

>Apparently the FDA has no power
>over the Chinois, neh?

I beleive that would be the USDA. Fish would fall under the
jurisdiction of the FDA though. It's up to the individual localaties,
though, to legislate and enforce the reccomendations of the above two
acronyms.

-sw

"Steve Sqwertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:59:12 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry
> > wrote:
>
> >Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin'
> >ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in
the
> >danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have
taken
> >up residence.
> >No?
>
> Aaron's info was correct. Ducks seem to shed at least salmonella.
>
> >That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big
> >enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of
the
> >restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks.
>
> All the ones I see hanging have alreday been roasted (some are white,
> some are red). They usually have heat lamps above.
>
> >Apparently the FDA has no power
> >over the Chinois, neh?
>
> I beleive that would be the USDA. Fish would fall under the
> jurisdiction of the FDA though. It's up to the individual localaties,
> though, to legislate and enforce the reccomendations of the above two
> acronyms.
>
> -sw

My parents used to hang pheasants and rabbits in the shed for 1 week prior
to cooking.How the place stunk! Grouse is another animal which benefits from
hanging.
I have a friend who, before cooking steak, will leave it on the work surface
in the kitchen for 3 days or so, until there is a blue mould/film covering
it. Then he will fry it. Its a natural way to tenderise the meat. You just
have to ensure you cook it through.

Steve Wertz wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:19:43 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry
> > wrote:
>
> >Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
> >(especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not
> >to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
> >See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm
> >
> >So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855
> >when preparing Peking Duck?
> >See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp
> >
> >I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and
> >have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in
> >boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before
> >cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this,
> >leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this
> >for over a hundred years..."
> >
> >Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a
> >waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again.
>
> Americans digestive and immune systems are whimpy because of our
> breeding and overly cautious ways (much of which is dictated by the
> good 'ol U.S. governemnt).
>
> If you were raised in Asia or the East, your digestive/immune system
> would be much more sturdy. The U.S. has harvested a nation of
> hyperphobic and obsessive compulsive germ freaks and whimps.
>
> -sw

Steve I think you nailed it. I remember reading an article in a trade publication
15 or 20 years ago (think it was National Provisoner). The head of the French
Health Ministry was touring US meat plants and commented " our compulsion
to produce germ less food is setting us up for some real problems when some
thing goes wrong". This was years before e-coli.

I was raised in the meat business, I remember washing moldy smoked sausage
and either selling them or taking them home. Same with most cured meats.
The fresh stuff was treated the same way. When it got old it became ground
beef or sausage. I still eat this way, force of habit. I buy out of code steaks
at the market weekly, not to mention assorted packaged meats. Remember a lot
of what we consider gourmet delicacies is really nothing more than controlled
spoilage. (aged meats, genoa salami, country hams, summer sausage, cheese, etc.)

Not to minimize the impact of severe food poisoning, but I live by the
rule that it is a big world and a very small microbe.
Dave

because it is cooked after the hanging around process?
"Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote in message
...
> Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
> (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us
not
> to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
> See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm
>
> So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855
> when preparing Peking Duck?
> See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp
>
> I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years,
and
> have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in
> boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before
> cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this,
> leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this
> for over a hundred years..."
>
> Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a
> waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again.
>
> A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze.
>
> Jack Curry
>
>

"Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote in message
...
> Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
> (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns
us not
> to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours.
> See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm
>
> So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since
1855
> when preparing Peking Duck?
> See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp

<snipped the rest cause it's repeated often enough in the thread>

Lot's of yays and nays here. But anyone who has been to SE Asia has
seen
lots of uncooked birds hanging in the window. Not just ducks but all
kinds
of birds. And no there ain't no fershluggin infrared lights on them
either. Lots
of places don't even have a window. It's common knowledge in the
military
community that you're gonna be upchucky for awhile when you first
arrive
in SE Asia. It's a given. They used to even force hepatitis shots on
us the
instant we arrived. They finally quit that when somebody found out
that the
shots were only effective for a couple of weeks. Frankly, I think
cooking
to a high enough temperature is the main key to staying alive. All of
the
Asian Howard Johnson's (Read sidewalk cart) cooked over charcoal until
well done. I never got sick, but it may have been all that plum wine I
was
fortified with. Who knows?
--
Brick(Masta Couch Bouncer)

"Graeme... in London" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve Sqwertz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:59:12 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin'
> > >ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in
> the
> > >danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have
> taken
> > >up residence.
> > >No?
> >
> > Aaron's info was correct. Ducks seem to shed at least salmonella.
> >
> > >That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city
big
> > >enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most
of
> the
> > >restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks.
> >
> > All the ones I see hanging have alreday been roasted (some are white,
> > some are red). They usually have heat lamps above.
> >
> > >Apparently the FDA has no power
> > >over the Chinois, neh?
> >
> > I beleive that would be the USDA. Fish would fall under the
> > jurisdiction of the FDA though. It's up to the individual localaties,
> > though, to legislate and enforce the reccomendations of the above two
> > acronyms.
> >
> > -sw
>
> My parents used to hang pheasants and rabbits in the shed for 1 week prior
> to cooking.How the place stunk! Grouse is another animal which benefits
from
> hanging.
> I have a friend who, before cooking steak, will leave it on the work
surface
> in the kitchen for 3 days or so, until there is a blue mould/film covering
> it. Then he will fry it. Its a natural way to tenderise the meat. You just
> have to ensure you cook it through.
>
>

Was the game gutted prior to hanging? I asked about this in the group about
a month ago or so, but most hadn't heard of the practice. I had seen it on
the TV mini-series "Shogun" where a British man hung a pheasant up for a
week.

-JasonW

> Was the game gutted prior to hanging? I asked about this in the group
about
> a month ago or so, but most hadn't heard of the practice. I had seen it on
> the TV mini-series "Shogun" where a British man hung a pheasant up for a
> week.
>
> -JasonW
>

If you have children, you may have read the delightful book "Danny and the
Champion of the World" by Roald Dahl. Danny's father is a poacher of
pheasant on the Lord's estate. When he shoots the birds, he then hangs them
for a period of several days so they will be to his liking. Dalh's
descriptions of the process and the result are just marvelous, as is most of
his writing.

I know that the best restaurants age their steaks for weeks or months, and
that the most desirable ones have a thin greenish coating on them at the end
of the process and prior to cooking. Maybe it's one of those things you
never want to see made, like sausage and legislation.

Barry

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:05:18 GMT, Reg > wrote:

>You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef.
>I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort.

How do you do it?

--
Kevin S. Wilson
Tech Writer at a University Somewhere in Idaho
"Who put these fingerprints on my imagination?"

barry wrote:

> I know that the best restaurants age their steaks for weeks or months, and
> that the most desirable ones have a thin greenish coating on them at the end
> of the process and prior to cooking. Maybe it's one of those things you
> never want to see made, like sausage and legislation.

You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef.
I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Kevin S. Wilson" wrote:
>
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:05:18 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>
> >You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef.
> >I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort.
>
> How do you do it?


The link below is Alton Brown's method for making rib roast. The first
part describes how he dry ages it. Hope this helps.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._17372,00.html



Brian Rodenborn

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:05:18 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>
>
>>You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef.
>>I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort.
>
>
> How do you do it?
>

I use a dedicated fridge, which gets wiped down with chlorine cleaner
before every new load. The meat goes on racks, and I turn them
every few days, handling with gloves. After a week there is some
shrinkage and some dry areas, so they need to be trimmed a bit after
taking them out. Shrinkage runs between 10 and 25 %. Higher fat items
shrink the least. They're never green or other strange colors, but there
is some darkening.

I've seen references to wrapping in towels and changing them every so often,
but I don't do that. I find cutting the airflow around the product hinders
the process. I just make sure the humidity is at least 50% and the temp stays
below 40 F.

I find that higher fat roasts do best with aging, but just about any beef
benefits from it. I do everything from prime rib to top round and
rump. A week works best for me, after which the law of diminishing
returns begins to set in.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Reg wrote:
> I find that higher fat roasts do best with aging, but just about any
> beef benefits from it. I do everything from prime rib to top round and
> rump. A week works best for me, after which the law of diminishing
> returns begins to set in.

What are the primary benefits, flavor, texture...? How does it change the
beef?

D
--