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Barbecue (alt.food.barbecue) Discuss barbecue and grilling--southern style "low and slow" smoking of ribs, shoulders and briskets, as well as direct heat grilling of everything from burgers to salmon to vegetables. |
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Meat Danger Zone
Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat
(especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours. See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855 when preparing Peking Duck? See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this, leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this for over a hundred years..." Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again. A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze. Jack Curry |
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Meat Danger Zone
Jack Curry wrote: (snip) > A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze. > > Jack Curry > > IIRC, duck don't generally harbor salmonella; they have a natural immunity or ability to shed it. -- (signature here) |
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Meat Danger Zone
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:19:43 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry
> wrote: >Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat >(especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not >to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours. >See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm > >So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855 >when preparing Peking Duck? >See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp > >I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and >have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in >boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before >cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this, >leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this >for over a hundred years..." > >Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a >waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again. Americans digestive and immune systems are whimpy because of our breeding and overly cautious ways (much of which is dictated by the good 'ol U.S. governemnt). If you were raised in Asia or the East, your digestive/immune system would be much more sturdy. The U.S. has harvested a nation of hyperphobic and obsessive compulsive germ freaks and whimps. -sw |
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Meat Danger Zone
In article >, "Jack
Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote: > Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat > (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not > to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours. > See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm > > So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855 > when preparing Peking Duck? > See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp > > I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and > have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in > boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before > cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this, > leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this > for over a hundred years..." > > Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a > waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again. > > A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze. > If the 40-140 rule were ironclad we as a species would have been extinct eons ago. Some folks are delicate and get the trots from glancing at a glass of sour milk. Some folks can eat buzzard puke. I've never paid for my sins of breaking of this rule but you need to be careful if you're feeding this duck to dinner guests. They may not have the intestinal fortitude (literally!) to stomach (HAH HAH) the results. At least give 'em a heads up. (monroe(forewarned is legally asscovered) |
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Meat Danger Zone
Monroe, of course... wrote:
> In article >, "Jack Snipped my own BS - > If the 40-140 rule were ironclad we as a species would have been > extinct eons ago. > Some folks are delicate and get the trots from glancing at a glass of > sour milk. Some folks can eat buzzard puke. > I've never paid for my sins of breaking of this rule but you need to > be careful if you're feeding this duck to dinner guests. They may not > have the intestinal fortitude (literally!) to stomach (HAH HAH) the > results. > > At least give 'em a heads up. > > (monroe(forewarned is legally asscovered) Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin' ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in the danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have taken up residence. No? That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of the restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks. Apparently the FDA has no power over the Chinois, neh? And neither do micro-organisms. All this from a guy who got Hepatitis A from eating clam pasta in Venice. Jack Curry -slow learner, but now immune to Hep A for life- |
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Meat Danger Zone
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Meat Danger Zone
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:13:11 GMT, "Monroe, of course..."
> wrote: >If the 40-140 rule were ironclad we as a species would have been >extinct eons ago. I've been running at around 98.6F for 36 years and other than maybe some occssional bad breath, I haven't rotted away. -sw >Some folks are delicate and get the trots from glancing at a glass of >sour milk. Some folks can eat buzzard puke. >I've never paid for my sins of breaking of this rule but you need to be >careful if you're feeding this duck to dinner guests. They may not have >the intestinal fortitude (literally!) to stomach (HAH HAH) the results. > >At least give 'em a heads up. > >(monroe(forewarned is legally asscovered) |
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Meat Danger Zone
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Meat Danger Zone
"Steve Sqwertz" > wrote in message ... > On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:59:12 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > > wrote: > > >Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin' > >ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in the > >danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have taken > >up residence. > >No? > > Aaron's info was correct. Ducks seem to shed at least salmonella. > > >That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big > >enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of the > >restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks. > > All the ones I see hanging have alreday been roasted (some are white, > some are red). They usually have heat lamps above. > > >Apparently the FDA has no power > >over the Chinois, neh? > > I beleive that would be the USDA. Fish would fall under the > jurisdiction of the FDA though. It's up to the individual localaties, > though, to legislate and enforce the reccomendations of the above two > acronyms. > > -sw My parents used to hang pheasants and rabbits in the shed for 1 week prior to cooking.How the place stunk! Grouse is another animal which benefits from hanging. I have a friend who, before cooking steak, will leave it on the work surface in the kitchen for 3 days or so, until there is a blue mould/film covering it. Then he will fry it. Its a natural way to tenderise the meat. You just have to ensure you cook it through. |
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Meat Danger Zone
Steve Wertz wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:19:43 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > > wrote: > > >Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat > >(especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not > >to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours. > >See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm > > > >So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855 > >when preparing Peking Duck? > >See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp > > > >I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and > >have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in > >boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before > >cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this, > >leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this > >for over a hundred years..." > > > >Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a > >waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again. > > Americans digestive and immune systems are whimpy because of our > breeding and overly cautious ways (much of which is dictated by the > good 'ol U.S. governemnt). > > If you were raised in Asia or the East, your digestive/immune system > would be much more sturdy. The U.S. has harvested a nation of > hyperphobic and obsessive compulsive germ freaks and whimps. > > -sw Steve I think you nailed it. I remember reading an article in a trade publication 15 or 20 years ago (think it was National Provisoner). The head of the French Health Ministry was touring US meat plants and commented " our compulsion to produce germ less food is setting us up for some real problems when some thing goes wrong". This was years before e-coli. I was raised in the meat business, I remember washing moldy smoked sausage and either selling them or taking them home. Same with most cured meats. The fresh stuff was treated the same way. When it got old it became ground beef or sausage. I still eat this way, force of habit. I buy out of code steaks at the market weekly, not to mention assorted packaged meats. Remember a lot of what we consider gourmet delicacies is really nothing more than controlled spoilage. (aged meats, genoa salami, country hams, summer sausage, cheese, etc.) Not to minimize the impact of severe food poisoning, but I live by the rule that it is a big world and a very small microbe. Dave |
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Meat Danger Zone
because it is cooked after the hanging around process?
"Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote in message ... > Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat > (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not > to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours. > See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm > > So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855 > when preparing Peking Duck? > See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp > > I've been making Ming Tsai's Peking Duck recipe for three or four years, and > have hung ducks at room temperature (the ducks were dipped very briefly in > boiling glaze first, but are completely raw inside) for 24 hours before > cooking. As Ming said on his show, "If you're not comfortable with this, > leave the duck in the fridge, but billions of Chinese have been doing this > for over a hundred years..." > > Not only have I never gotten sick from eating the results, but I have a > waiting list of guests who want to come back for the ducks again. > > A conundrum, huh? Somebody help me pleeeeeze. > > Jack Curry > > |
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Meat Danger Zone
"Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > wrote in message ... > Our government and our food industry tell us that there is a meat > (especially poultry) "Danger Zone" of between 40° and 140° and warns us not > to leave foods in this temperature range for more than 2 hours. > See http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/f...g4groups/5.htm > > So, how does this equate with what the Chinese have been doing since 1855 > when preparing Peking Duck? > See http://www.foodiesite.com/recipes/2000-02/pekduck.jsp <snipped the rest cause it's repeated often enough in the thread> Lot's of yays and nays here. But anyone who has been to SE Asia has seen lots of uncooked birds hanging in the window. Not just ducks but all kinds of birds. And no there ain't no fershluggin infrared lights on them either. Lots of places don't even have a window. It's common knowledge in the military community that you're gonna be upchucky for awhile when you first arrive in SE Asia. It's a given. They used to even force hepatitis shots on us the instant we arrived. They finally quit that when somebody found out that the shots were only effective for a couple of weeks. Frankly, I think cooking to a high enough temperature is the main key to staying alive. All of the Asian Howard Johnson's (Read sidewalk cart) cooked over charcoal until well done. I never got sick, but it may have been all that plum wine I was fortified with. Who knows? -- Brick(Masta Couch Bouncer) |
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Meat Danger Zone
"Graeme... in London" > wrote in message
... > > "Steve Sqwertz" > wrote in message > ... > > On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:59:12 GMT, "Jack Curry" <Jack-Curry > > > wrote: > > > > >Well, I was hopin' one of you smart guys was gonna postulate that doin' > > >ducks this way is OK because they're gonna get *cooked* after bein' in > the > > >danger zone for a day, which kills any nasty buggies that might have > taken > > >up residence. > > >No? > > > > Aaron's info was correct. Ducks seem to shed at least salmonella. > > > > >That's my unejamacated guess. Anyhow, go to a Chinatown in any city big > > >enough to have one and you'll see ducks hangin' in the window of most of > the > > >restaurants. Glazed but uncooked ducks. > > > > All the ones I see hanging have alreday been roasted (some are white, > > some are red). They usually have heat lamps above. > > > > >Apparently the FDA has no power > > >over the Chinois, neh? > > > > I beleive that would be the USDA. Fish would fall under the > > jurisdiction of the FDA though. It's up to the individual localaties, > > though, to legislate and enforce the reccomendations of the above two > > acronyms. > > > > -sw > > My parents used to hang pheasants and rabbits in the shed for 1 week prior > to cooking.How the place stunk! Grouse is another animal which benefits from > hanging. > I have a friend who, before cooking steak, will leave it on the work surface > in the kitchen for 3 days or so, until there is a blue mould/film covering > it. Then he will fry it. Its a natural way to tenderise the meat. You just > have to ensure you cook it through. > > Was the game gutted prior to hanging? I asked about this in the group about a month ago or so, but most hadn't heard of the practice. I had seen it on the TV mini-series "Shogun" where a British man hung a pheasant up for a week. -JasonW |
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Meat Danger Zone
> Was the game gutted prior to hanging? I asked about this in the group
about > a month ago or so, but most hadn't heard of the practice. I had seen it on > the TV mini-series "Shogun" where a British man hung a pheasant up for a > week. > > -JasonW > If you have children, you may have read the delightful book "Danny and the Champion of the World" by Roald Dahl. Danny's father is a poacher of pheasant on the Lord's estate. When he shoots the birds, he then hangs them for a period of several days so they will be to his liking. Dalh's descriptions of the process and the result are just marvelous, as is most of his writing. I know that the best restaurants age their steaks for weeks or months, and that the most desirable ones have a thin greenish coating on them at the end of the process and prior to cooking. Maybe it's one of those things you never want to see made, like sausage and legislation. Barry |
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Meat Danger Zone
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:05:18 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef. >I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort. How do you do it? -- Kevin S. Wilson Tech Writer at a University Somewhere in Idaho "Who put these fingerprints on my imagination?" |
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Meat Danger Zone
barry wrote: > I know that the best restaurants age their steaks for weeks or months, and > that the most desirable ones have a thin greenish coating on them at the end > of the process and prior to cooking. Maybe it's one of those things you > never want to see made, like sausage and legislation. You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef. I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort. -- Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com |
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Meat Danger Zone
"Kevin S. Wilson" wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:05:18 GMT, Reg > wrote: > > >You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef. > >I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort. > > How do you do it? The link below is Alton Brown's method for making rib roast. The first part describes how he dry ages it. Hope this helps. http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._17372,00.html Brian Rodenborn |
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Meat Danger Zone
Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:05:18 GMT, Reg > wrote: > > >>You don't need to go to the extremes to get a good result from aging beef. >>I do a week of dry aging to mine, and it's worth the effort. > > > How do you do it? > I use a dedicated fridge, which gets wiped down with chlorine cleaner before every new load. The meat goes on racks, and I turn them every few days, handling with gloves. After a week there is some shrinkage and some dry areas, so they need to be trimmed a bit after taking them out. Shrinkage runs between 10 and 25 %. Higher fat items shrink the least. They're never green or other strange colors, but there is some darkening. I've seen references to wrapping in towels and changing them every so often, but I don't do that. I find cutting the airflow around the product hinders the process. I just make sure the humidity is at least 50% and the temp stays below 40 F. I find that higher fat roasts do best with aging, but just about any beef benefits from it. I do everything from prime rib to top round and rump. A week works best for me, after which the law of diminishing returns begins to set in. -- Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com |
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Meat Danger Zone
Reg wrote:
> I find that higher fat roasts do best with aging, but just about any > beef benefits from it. I do everything from prime rib to top round and > rump. A week works best for me, after which the law of diminishing > returns begins to set in. What are the primary benefits, flavor, texture...? How does it change the beef? D -- |
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