I've been searching high and low, in all of Kennedy's books (I'm a proud
owner of them all!) and my mother's research into Mexican food she used in
teaching the subject at San Fran colleges and later Colorado colleges...
cumin was never an ingredient in south of the border Mexican food. Note the
disclaimer, south of the border, not using 'authentic nor real' in this
quest for knowledge. And Texas chili relies heavily on cumin. Is this the
major difference?

Wayne

Camino is such a wierd flavor. a pinch too much and the dish is
ruined, but just the right amount and it enhances most mexican food. i
think cumin--aka camino-is alot like oregano in that it gives food an
"earthy" flavor. we make an adovada sauce with a lot of oregano and
more cumin that i'd like to admit. the result is very good. Kennnedy
is awesome. C


Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> I've been searching high and low, in all of Kennedy's books (I'm a proud
> owner of them all!) and my mother's research into Mexican food she used in
> teaching the subject at San Fran colleges and later Colorado colleges...
> cumin was never an ingredient in south of the border Mexican food. Note the
> disclaimer, south of the border, not using 'authentic nor real' in this
> quest for knowledge. And Texas chili relies heavily on cumin. Is this the
> major difference?
>
> Wayne

El comino is well used in many recipes from pozole to tamales meat, and
also as very well stated previously, in very small doses as it has a
very strong flavor.

"not authentic nor real" he,he , note taken all right )

Regards

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> I've been searching high and low, in all of Kennedy's books (I'm a proud
> owner of them all!) and my mother's research into Mexican food she used in
> teaching the subject at San Fran colleges and later Colorado colleges...
> cumin was never an ingredient in south of the border Mexican food. Note the
> disclaimer, south of the border, not using 'authentic nor real' in this
> quest for knowledge. And Texas chili relies heavily on cumin. Is this the
> major difference?
>
> Wayne

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> I've been searching high and low, in all of Kennedy's books (I'm a proud
> owner of them all!) and my mother's research into Mexican food she used in
> teaching the subject at San Fran colleges and later Colorado colleges...
> cumin was never an ingredient in south of the border Mexican food. Note the
> disclaimer, south of the border, not using 'authentic nor real' in this
> quest for knowledge. And Texas chili relies heavily on cumin. Is this the
> major difference?
>
> Wayne
>
>
I would tend to agree with you on this one with the exception of the
prevelance of cumino sold by Mexican spice companies. Like your other
posters mention maybe in very small amounts. I'm now using curry in some
of my Mexican dishes with great success. Sure it's not authentic but if
it tastes good eat it.

"Sonoran Dude" > wrote in message
. ..
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> > I've been searching high and low, in all of Kennedy's books (I'm a proud
> > owner of them all!) and my mother's research into Mexican food she used
in
> > teaching the subject at San Fran colleges and later Colorado colleges...
> > cumin was never an ingredient in south of the border Mexican food. Note
the
> > disclaimer, south of the border, not using 'authentic nor real' in this
> > quest for knowledge. And Texas chili relies heavily on cumin. Is this
the
> > major difference?
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> I would tend to agree with you on this one with the exception of the
> prevelance of cumino sold by Mexican spice companies. Like your other
> posters mention maybe in very small amounts. I'm now using curry in some
> of my Mexican dishes with great success. Sure it's not authentic but if
> it tastes good eat it.

Right on!

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:25:49 GMT, Wayne Lundberg wrote:
>
> > I've been searching high and low, in all of Kennedy's books (I'm a proud
> > owner of them all!) and my mother's research into Mexican food she used
in
> > teaching the subject at San Fran colleges and later Colorado colleges...
> > cumin was never an ingredient in south of the border Mexican food.
>
> Not a lot, but she does use it in several recipes.
>
> http://www.dianaskitchen.com/page/pork/pibil.htm
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/e...-diana-kennedy
> http://www.answerpoint.org/columns2....n_type=feature
> http://www.recipelink.com/cookbooks/...9603558_3.html
>
> -sw

Wow! Great research Steve. While you were doing this research I, too, was
checking out my own presumptions and discovered that cumin is a popular
seasoning in the eastern Mediterranean cultures. I can assume that the
Spanish conquistadores brought this seasoning with them and it started to
propagate from the famous nunneries in Puebla to the rest of the country.
But obviously it was not flavorful enough to do away with the more local
spices used for centuries. I just completed a bit of research on the Yucatan
Sopa de Lima and noticed the use of a pinch of cumin seed too. The Spanish
landed in Yucatan well before Cortez did his thing from Veracruz, ergo, La
Malinche, the translator that made the conquest possible. Without her,
Cortez and his group would have perished in Puebla. That's where she learned
Spanish, from a shipwrecked Spaniard. So, maybe Yucatan has a few years on
importing Spanish seasoning into traditional Maya food?

Wayne

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:05:11 GMT, Wayne Lundberg wrote:
>
> > While you were doing this research I, too, was
> > checking out my own presumptions and discovered that cumin is a popular
> > seasoning in the eastern Mediterranean cultures.
>
> Very popular in meat dishes in Mediterranean cooking. I really
> like a little on my lamb, for example.
>
> And *very* popular in India. Some say they use so much of it that
> they actually smell like cumin (and I tend to agree). Too much,
> and it smells like underarm BO.
>
> -sw

Steve, in your opinion, do you think the major difference between Texas
Chili and any Mexican meat/sauce recipe would be the cumin? I have yet to
replicate the Texas Chili flavor with any combination of chiles, beans
and/or traditional Mexican herbs or seasonings. Nothing comes close to a
greasy spoon restaurant bowl of chile anywhere in the US.

Wayne

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
>
> Steve, in your opinion, do you think the major difference between Texas
> Chili and any Mexican meat/sauce recipe would be the cumin? I have yet to
> replicate the Texas Chili flavor with any combination of chiles, beans
> and/or traditional Mexican herbs or seasonings. Nothing comes close to a
> greasy spoon restaurant bowl of chile anywhere in the US.
>
> Wayne

While you didn't ask for my opinion, I am a regular at Texas chili
cookoffs, both as a competitor (with a few 1st place medals) and a
judge. In my opinion, when used in the correct portions in chili, the
two most distinguishable flavors in Texas chili are cumin and
(strangely) Masa Harina, used to thicken the chili. The first chili
cookoff I attended was in Terlingua, Texas near Big Bend National Park
in 1973... 10 years before I started competing in fajita cookoffs. I
used to watch Janie and Tex Schofield cook chili.

For those who are interested in the whole chili culture, www.chili.org
is the official site of the Chili Appreciation Society International
and the last time I looked, it also had most of the world championship
winning recipes.

Jack

"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> >
---snip for brevity---

> For those who are interested in the whole chili culture, www.chili.org
> is the official site of the Chili Appreciation Society International
> and the last time I looked, it also had most of the world championship
> winning recipes.
>
> Jack

Thank you Jack. I feel like I have won the million dollar lotery with your
very concise and informative note. So cumin is the secret!

What kind of chile do you usually prefer? We don't really grow many chile
varieties in the US, such as Cerrano, Jalapeno, Chile de Arbol and the like.

In looking at all the winning recipes it appears that Pendery's this and
Pendery's that dominates the stuff to make the taste-buds react. Can you
tell us what is in the Pendery's mixes? In otherwords, how does one go
about making a true Texas Chili without buying prepackaged and preseasoned
stuff?

And the more I look at other winning recipes the more I see of store bought
prepackaged flavored stuff and not a whole lot of slice and dice onions,
garlic and the like from the chef.

Wayne



>

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
In otherwords, how does one go
> about making a true Texas Chili without buying prepackaged and preseasoned
> stuff?
>
> And the more I look at other winning recipes the more I see of store bought
> prepackaged flavored stuff and not a whole lot of slice and dice onions,
> garlic and the like from the chef.
>
> Wayne>

Strange as it may seem, there are onny very few ingredients that make a
damn bit of difference in (Texas) chili. I'll add that if you want to
consider Cincinnati and Skyline chile as "chilis", you would also think
of adding chocolate, allspice, cloves, LOADS of tomato sauce, and then
serve it over pasta. As far as I'm concerned, we're dealing more with
spaghetti sauce than chili, there. Anyway, the most important
ingredients in giving Texas chili the flavor we all recognize are
cumin, oregano, cayenne, onions, garlic, salt and pepper. Lots of
people (now) want tomato sauce in it and most award-winning recipes
include it these days. That wasn't always the case... in fact I
steadfastly refused to use them 20-30 years ago. However, just like
any other food, trends dictate what consumers look for and expect to
taste in foods. Anyway, many use prepared chili powders in chili...
and I do, too, these days. The important thing to remember is that
almost all prepared chili powders are, basically, cumin, oregano,
cayenne, garlic, salt and pepper. So, when I see people adding
cayenne, oregano and cumin, etc., in addition to as many as three
different prepared chili powders to the same pot of chili, I can't
figure what they are doing. The basic flavor of a good pot of chili
may be derived from prepared chili powder (Gebhardts, etc). Where you
go from there is up to you. I sautee chopped yello onions and a lot of
fresh garlic, too. I add more cumin. I also add a couple of jalapenos,
as I really like the flavor it gives. I sautee and brown a good
marbled chuck roast in beef fat, but have liked it when some do it with
bacon grease. Pendrey's makes deals with a lot of World Champion chili
chefs to market their "secret recipe" chili powders, like "Mary's", but
with the possible exception of a faint spice added to it, I have found
most chili powders to be basically the same few ingredients. Some
folks like sirloin... some like other meats, but the one that gives the
best flavor, in my opinion, if chuck. It has just the right fat
content to make the meat tender and the juice rich.

Taste, color, texture are all important... and although the Masa Harina
is important for the texture and to "tighten", or thicken the chili, it
has a flavor that I have grown accustomed to tasting in chilis that I
like.

I hate tomatoes in chili (tomato sauce is different), I look at beans
as "fillers", and if someone wants them in chili, they may as well add
rice. Fillers are banned in all sanctioned chili cookoffs. If you
can't afford a pot of meat, then fillers are the next best thing. The
most disgusting thing that can be done in chili, though, is to use
cheap meat... *especially*, hamburger meat. Good rich hand-cut chunks
of meat are the only way to go.

I also never use beer in chili... that's a little too "trendy" for me.

Jack

All this talk about chili is killing me. I love Mexican food, and I am
well fed by my friends here in Mexico; but as a Texan transplanted to
Mexico, I sorely miss chili and BBQ which we just don't have down
here.

Back to the subject cumin in Mexican cooking. Until last night I had
never encountered cumin in any food I have had in Mexico. I see cumin
on the spice shelves in the supermarket, so I guess some people must
use it, but not the nice ladies who feed me. Last night I ate a
hamburger from a place I had not tried before. I did not watch the
cook, so I only know what I could taste. It appears that he sprinkled
a little bit of cumin in a few places, not over the whole surface, so I
got a mild cumin taste in some bites and not in others. Nice effect.

"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> In otherwords, how does one go
> > about making a true Texas Chili without buying prepackaged and
preseasoned
> > stuff?
> >
> > And the more I look at other winning recipes the more I see of store
bought
> > prepackaged flavored stuff and not a whole lot of slice and dice onions,
> > garlic and the like from the chef.
> >
> > Wayne>
>
> Strange as it may seem, there are onny very few ingredients that make a
> damn bit of difference in (Texas) chili. I'll add that if you want to
> consider Cincinnati and Skyline chile as "chilis", you would also think
> of adding chocolate, allspice, cloves, LOADS of tomato sauce, and then
> serve it over pasta. As far as I'm concerned, we're dealing more with
> spaghetti sauce than chili, there. Anyway, the most important
> ingredients in giving Texas chili the flavor we all recognize are
> cumin, oregano, cayenne, onions, garlic, salt and pepper. Lots of
> people (now) want tomato sauce in it and most award-winning recipes
> include it these days. That wasn't always the case... in fact I
> steadfastly refused to use them 20-30 years ago. However, just like
> any other food, trends dictate what consumers look for and expect to
> taste in foods. Anyway, many use prepared chili powders in chili...
> and I do, too, these days. The important thing to remember is that
> almost all prepared chili powders are, basically, cumin, oregano,
> cayenne, garlic, salt and pepper. So, when I see people adding
> cayenne, oregano and cumin, etc., in addition to as many as three
> different prepared chili powders to the same pot of chili, I can't
> figure what they are doing. The basic flavor of a good pot of chili
> may be derived from prepared chili powder (Gebhardts, etc). Where you
> go from there is up to you. I sautee chopped yello onions and a lot of
> fresh garlic, too. I add more cumin. I also add a couple of jalapenos,
> as I really like the flavor it gives. I sautee and brown a good
> marbled chuck roast in beef fat, but have liked it when some do it with
> bacon grease. Pendrey's makes deals with a lot of World Champion chili
> chefs to market their "secret recipe" chili powders, like "Mary's", but
> with the possible exception of a faint spice added to it, I have found
> most chili powders to be basically the same few ingredients. Some
> folks like sirloin... some like other meats, but the one that gives the
> best flavor, in my opinion, if chuck. It has just the right fat
> content to make the meat tender and the juice rich.
>
> Taste, color, texture are all important... and although the Masa Harina
> is important for the texture and to "tighten", or thicken the chili, it
> has a flavor that I have grown accustomed to tasting in chilis that I
> like.
>
> I hate tomatoes in chili (tomato sauce is different), I look at beans
> as "fillers", and if someone wants them in chili, they may as well add
> rice. Fillers are banned in all sanctioned chili cookoffs. If you
> can't afford a pot of meat, then fillers are the next best thing. The
> most disgusting thing that can be done in chili, though, is to use
> cheap meat... *especially*, hamburger meat. Good rich hand-cut chunks
> of meat are the only way to go.
>
> I also never use beer in chili... that's a little too "trendy" for me.
>
> Jack

Thank you Jack for sharing this secret to great Texas chili. My whole family
turns out whenever I make any kind of chili, so I have a ready made lab for
testing new versions. I know one thing, I will not use ground beef again as
I have been doing for years. That was my main ingredient years ago as the
family was growing out of one set of levy's to another rather quickly and
budget constraints prvented sirloin or chuck from being considered. So I
tried ground port... ok. Then ground turkey... ok. But never really produced
that unique taste one gets from eating at a decent greasy spoon on the
highway anywhere in Texas.

As to fillers, I use pinto beans not as a filler, but because we all love
beans any way we can get them. A typical week will start with rice, black
bean soup, salsas and steam-heated tortillas on Sunday. Enough beans to last
through at least three servings during the rest of the week. The last being
refritos after the beans have had enough time to start internal fermentation
even though kept in the fridge. And a tostada on Friday knight is the cat's
meow.

In looking back at my cooking and family feeding routine/habit I can see a
distinct parallel with lower middle class Mexico, verging on rural and
campesino - almost pre-Columbian in totality. The only major shift would be
in our use of pasta from spaghetti and fideo, and healthy servings of fried
rice slow cooked in broth, tomato sauce or tomatillo sauce. Chile salsas on
the side always!

Wayne

>

"Rolly" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> All this talk about chili is killing me. I love Mexican food, and I am
> well fed by my friends here in Mexico; but as a Texan transplanted to
> Mexico, I sorely miss chili and BBQ which we just don't have down
> here.
>
> Back to the subject cumin in Mexican cooking. Until last night I had
> never encountered cumin in any food I have had in Mexico. I see cumin
> on the spice shelves in the supermarket, so I guess some people must
> use it, but not the nice ladies who feed me. Last night I ate a
> hamburger from a place I had not tried before. I did not watch the
> cook, so I only know what I could taste. It appears that he sprinkled
> a little bit of cumin in a few places, not over the whole surface, so I
> got a mild cumin taste in some bites and not in others. Nice effect.
>

Same here regarding cumin. This appears to be a developing thing in that
from time to time a see a new recipe claiming to be pre-Columbian in nature,
but with cumin added. Cumin was not available on the American continent
until after the conquest. Not that it does not add something of value, just
that it is a growing phenomena. Like Jack has said, cumin, oregano, onion,
garlic, salt and pepper make the best Texas chili.

Wayne

I've found cumin in a number of North Carolina stype BBQ sauces (mustard
based).
"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> In otherwords, how does one go
>> about making a true Texas Chili without buying prepackaged and
>> preseasoned
>> stuff?
>>
>> And the more I look at other winning recipes the more I see of store
>> bought
>> prepackaged flavored stuff and not a whole lot of slice and dice onions,
>> garlic and the like from the chef.
>>
>> Wayne>
>
> Strange as it may seem, there are onny very few ingredients that make a
> damn bit of difference in (Texas) chili. I'll add that if you want to
> consider Cincinnati and Skyline chile as "chilis", you would also think
> of adding chocolate, allspice, cloves, LOADS of tomato sauce, and then
> serve it over pasta. As far as I'm concerned, we're dealing more with
> spaghetti sauce than chili, there. Anyway, the most important
> ingredients in giving Texas chili the flavor we all recognize are
> cumin, oregano, cayenne, onions, garlic, salt and pepper. Lots of
> people (now) want tomato sauce in it and most award-winning recipes
> include it these days. That wasn't always the case... in fact I
> steadfastly refused to use them 20-30 years ago. However, just like
> any other food, trends dictate what consumers look for and expect to
> taste in foods. Anyway, many use prepared chili powders in chili...
> and I do, too, these days. The important thing to remember is that
> almost all prepared chili powders are, basically, cumin, oregano,
> cayenne, garlic, salt and pepper. So, when I see people adding
> cayenne, oregano and cumin, etc., in addition to as many as three
> different prepared chili powders to the same pot of chili, I can't
> figure what they are doing. The basic flavor of a good pot of chili
> may be derived from prepared chili powder (Gebhardts, etc). Where you
> go from there is up to you. I sautee chopped yello onions and a lot of
> fresh garlic, too. I add more cumin. I also add a couple of jalapenos,
> as I really like the flavor it gives. I sautee and brown a good
> marbled chuck roast in beef fat, but have liked it when some do it with
> bacon grease. Pendrey's makes deals with a lot of World Champion chili
> chefs to market their "secret recipe" chili powders, like "Mary's", but
> with the possible exception of a faint spice added to it, I have found
> most chili powders to be basically the same few ingredients. Some
> folks like sirloin... some like other meats, but the one that gives the
> best flavor, in my opinion, if chuck. It has just the right fat
> content to make the meat tender and the juice rich.
>
> Taste, color, texture are all important... and although the Masa Harina
> is important for the texture and to "tighten", or thicken the chili, it
> has a flavor that I have grown accustomed to tasting in chilis that I
> like.
>
> I hate tomatoes in chili (tomato sauce is different), I look at beans
> as "fillers", and if someone wants them in chili, they may as well add
> rice. Fillers are banned in all sanctioned chili cookoffs. If you
> can't afford a pot of meat, then fillers are the next best thing. The
> most disgusting thing that can be done in chili, though, is to use
> cheap meat... *especially*, hamburger meat. Good rich hand-cut chunks
> of meat are the only way to go.
>
> I also never use beer in chili... that's a little too "trendy" for me.
>
> Jack
>

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
I know one thing, I will not use ground beef again as
> I have been doing for years. That was my main ingredient years ago as the
> family was growing out of one set of levy's to another rather quickly and
> budget constraints prvented sirloin or chuck from being considered.
> Wayne
>
> >

Just remember that the 1/2 inch chunks of chuck will cook to pieces
just like the ground stuff... but you may have to cook it longer. One
thing for sure, properly thickened and cooked, eating hand cut meat
instead of ground beef in chili is like being born again. You'll never
go back to hamburger meat. I also cook the chili in beef broth instead
of water, quite often. The chili is much richer... it's all about
beef, anyway, isn't it?

By the way, Wayne, I'm not so much of a chili snob that I refuse to let
people eat beans in their chili in my house. I merely cook a big pot
of barracho beans and serve them on the side. They can dump in the
chili if they want to. I like beans with chili... I just don't eat 'em
IN the chili.

Jack

"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> I know one thing, I will not use ground beef again as
> > I have been doing for years. That was my main ingredient years ago as
the
> > family was growing out of one set of levy's to another rather quickly
and
> > budget constraints prvented sirloin or chuck from being considered.
> > Wayne
> >
> > >
>
> Just remember that the 1/2 inch chunks of chuck will cook to pieces
> just like the ground stuff... but you may have to cook it longer. One
> thing for sure, properly thickened and cooked, eating hand cut meat
> instead of ground beef in chili is like being born again. You'll never
> go back to hamburger meat. I also cook the chili in beef broth instead
> of water, quite often. The chili is much richer... it's all about
> beef, anyway, isn't it?
>
> By the way, Wayne, I'm not so much of a chili snob that I refuse to let
> people eat beans in their chili in my house. I merely cook a big pot
> of barracho beans and serve them on the side. They can dump in the
> chili if they want to. I like beans with chili... I just don't eat 'em
> IN the chili.
>
> Jack

Having the beans on the side makes a lot of sense. Kind of like having chile
salsas on the table when eating other Mexican type foods.
>

Jack Tyler wrote:

> Just remember that the 1/2 inch chunks of chuck will cook to pieces
> just like the ground stuff... but you may have to cook it longer. One
> thing for sure, properly thickened and cooked, eating hand cut meat
> instead of ground beef in chili is like being born again. You'll never
> go back to hamburger meat.

Amen to that.

> I also cook the chili in beef broth instead
> of water, quite often. The chili is much richer... it's all about
> beef, anyway, isn't it?

Good tip, Jack. I will try that next time. It will especially help
tough beef that has been boiled for a long time to tenderize it.

In article >,
"news.charter.net" > wrote:

> I've found cumin in a number of North Carolina stype BBQ sauces (mustard
> based).

Mustard-based BBQ sauce is a SOUTH Carolina specialty. North
Carolinians look down on this abomination.

Cindy, formerly of North Carolina

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

Cindy Fuller wrote:
> In article >,
> "news.charter.net" > wrote:
>
>> I've found cumin in a number of North Carolina stype BBQ sauces (mustard
>> based).
>
> Mustard-based BBQ sauce is a SOUTH Carolina specialty. North
> Carolinians look down on this abomination.
>
> Cindy, formerly of North Carolina
>
And what a wonderful abomination it is!

Here is my SC/Mexican fusion butt rub...

2 large Pork Shoulder's bone in slathered in good ole' American yellow
mustard resting at room temp while the Weber Smokey Mountain cooker
comes up to temp.

Proportions are estimated...
1/3 cup of Santa Cruz brand red chili powder
1/3 cup of natural Mexican granulated sugar
1/4 cup kosher salt
2 heaping tablespoons of both garlic powder and onion powder
1 tablespoon of crushed Mexican oregano
1/2 teaspoon of crushed anise seed
1 dozen crushed chili tepin
1 teaspoon dried mustard

NO CUMIN PLEASE!!!

Rubbed generously on the tacky yellow mustard coated roasts and slow
cooked with a small amount of chunk pecan or hickory smoke at the
beginning of the cook. Cook to an internal temp of about 193 and rest in
foil for a half hour before pulling.