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Old 12-02-2012, 10:41 PM posted to alt.food.wine,rec.food.drink
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What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? Can
anyone recommend an example of each, which
I can taste side by side? Label and vintage, please.

Also, what does structure mean?

--
Rich

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Old 13-02-2012, 03:25 AM posted to alt.food.wine,rec.food.drink
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RichD wrote:
What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? Can
anyone recommend an example of each, which
I can taste side by side? Label and vintage, please.


Fat vs. lean refers to the level of acidity in the wine. A wine high in
acidity will taste "lean"; one low in acidity "fat." This is further
modified by the degree of extraction (phenolic extract or dry extract)
in that wine, with the greater extraction reducing perceived leanness
and v.v. A good example of a "lean" wine is almost any Italian white
wine. Pick up the latest vintage of a Bolla Soave. For a "fat" wine,
try a cheap Aussie Shiraz. The lastest version of Yellowtail Shiraz
should serve admirably in that regard (once you get past the sweetness
of the residual sugar).


Also, what does structure mean?


Structure refers to the combination of acidity and tannins, especially
in the context of red wine, that help make a wine ageworthy. From a
sensory perspective, structure is associated with increased astringency
(bitterness) and increased sourness (acidity). A highly structured wine
won't be very pleasant to taste in its youth, in most cases.


If you have more questions of this sort, you might want to invest in a
good general knowledge guide to wine, such as Karen MacNeil's Wine Bible
or Making Sense of Wine by Matt Kramer.

Mark Lipton
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Old 23-03-2012, 04:55 AM posted to alt.food.wine,rec.food.drink
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On Feb 12, Mark Lipton wrote:
What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? *Can
anyone recommend an example of each, which
I can taste side by side? *Label and vintage, please.


Sorry, I forgot about this one.

Fat vs. lean refers to the level of acidity in the wine. *A wine high in
acidity will taste "lean"; one low in acidity "fat." *This is further
modified by the degree of extraction (phenolic extract or dry extract)
in that wine, with the greater extraction reducing perceived leanness
and v.v.


ok, that's helpful.

A good example of a "lean" wine is almost any Italian white
wine. *Pick up the latest vintage of a Bolla Soave.


plonk?

For a "fat" wine, try a cheap Aussie Shiraz. *The lastest
version of Yellowtail Shiraz should serve admirably in that
regard (once you get past the sweetness
of the residual sugar).


plonk?


Also, what does structure mean?


Structure refers to the combination of acidity and tannins,
especially in the context of red wine, that help make a wine
ageworthy. *From a sensory perspective, structure is
associated with increased astringency
(bitterness) and increased sourness (acidity). *A highly structured
wine won't be very pleasant to taste in its youth, in most cases.


That brings up another question - which wines are
selected for aging, why, how? Which you've addressed.
Is a wine produced with storage in mind, or is that
decided after it comes out of the barrel?

I mostly avoid red wines, on account of the tannins.
That signals a wine intended for aging, to smooth
out. But overwhelmingly, people drink them young.
I don't get it - they enjoy a beverage which makes
them pucker?

Can you a suggest a wine which is acidic but not
tannic, and vice versa?

If you have more questions of this sort, you might want to invest
in a good general knowledge guide to wine, such as Karen
MacNeil's Wine Bible or Making Sense of Wine by Matt Kramer.


Will do -

--
Rich

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Old 23-03-2012, 02:56 PM posted to alt.food.wine,rec.food.drink
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RichD writes:

On Feb 12, Mark Lipton wrote:
What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? *Can
anyone recommend an example of each, which
I can taste side by side? *Label and vintage, please.


Sorry, I forgot about this one.

Fat vs. lean refers to the level of acidity in the wine. *A wine high in
acidity will taste "lean"; one low in acidity "fat." *This is further
modified by the degree of extraction (phenolic extract or dry extract)
in that wine, with the greater extraction reducing perceived leanness
and v.v.


ok, that's helpful.

A good example of a "lean" wine is almost any Italian white
wine. *Pick up the latest vintage of a Bolla Soave.


plonk?

For a "fat" wine, try a cheap Aussie Shiraz. *The lastest
version of Yellowtail Shiraz should serve admirably in that
regard (once you get past the sweetness
of the residual sugar).


plonk?


Why this question? Certainly both are cheap and popular
wines - he was trying to give you examples that are easily
available and don't cost much.

I suppose I'd characterize Yellowtail as plonk, but so what?

Also, what does structure mean?


Structure refers to the combination of acidity and tannins,
especially in the context of red wine, that help make a wine
ageworthy. *From a sensory perspective, structure is
associated with increased astringency
(bitterness) and increased sourness (acidity). *A highly structured
wine won't be very pleasant to taste in its youth, in most cases.


That brings up another question - which wines are
selected for aging, why, how? Which you've addressed.
Is a wine produced with storage in mind, or is that
decided after it comes out of the barrel?


Wines are produced with aging in mind, or (for the most
part) not.

I mostly avoid red wines, on account of the tannins.
That signals a wine intended for aging, to smooth
out. But overwhelmingly, people drink them young.
I don't get it - they enjoy a beverage which makes
them pucker?

Can you a suggest a wine which is acidic but not
tannic, and vice versa?


Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
also tends to be acidic and not tannic.

The aforementioned Yellowtail Shiraz is often tannic with less
acidity.
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Old 24-03-2012, 01:42 PM posted to alt.food.wine,rec.food.drink
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Mike Tommasi writes:

On 23/03/2012 15:56, Doug Anderson wrote:

Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
also tends to be acidic and not tannic.


Sorry, I disagree Doug... in a nice way of course :-)


I'm guilty of over-generalizing.

Does the lower colour density imply lower tannin? I don't think there
is ANY correlation. Macerate white grapes (vinify them as a red) and
that (slightly off white) wine will be tannic too.

Would you not agree that Burgundies ARE in fact tannic (and how!), and
so is Amarone (and how!)...?


Sadly I've had too few Amarones to venture an opinion on them.

My experience with Burgundy is less limited but also quite limited
compared to yours and I've found them considerably less tannic than
(for example) Bordeaux, though of course this depends some on the
wine-making.

My experience with US PN, in particular from Oregon is considerable
and these wines are generally not particularly tannic.

So I would say wine from PN is maybe SLIGHTLY less tannic than, say, a
cab madewith the same technique, but I would not say they are NOT
tannic.

A better example of a definitely low tannin wine is Beaujolais.


Agreed.


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Old 25-03-2012, 02:00 AM posted to alt.food.wine,rec.food.drink
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"Mike Tommasi" wrote in message
...
On 23/03/2012 15:56, Doug Anderson wrote:

Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
also tends to be acidic and not tannic.


Sorry, I disagree Doug... in a nice way of course :-)

Does the lower colour density imply lower tannin? I don't think there is
ANY correlation. Macerate white grapes (vinify them as a red) and that
(slightly off white) wine will be tannic too.

Would you not agree that Burgundies ARE in fact tannic (and how!), and so
is Amarone (and how!)...?

So I would say wine from PN is maybe SLIGHTLY less tannic than, say, a cab
madewith the same technique, but I would not say they are NOT tannic.

A better example of a definitely low tannin wine is Beaujolais.

As for Lambrusco, well, I have had some low yield well extracted wines
from that area that are as tannic as the next wine.


Not forgetting wood tannins from oak treatment.

Cheers!

Martin



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